Barbara: Hi everyone, and welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox, and I host this weekly podcast. Today’s guest returns for part two of Human Rights. We had so much to talk about 2 weeks ago that we’re back for more.
I met Heather in Germany where she facilitated a weekly Bible study in the evening. She was raised as a Mormon and has lived in Utah since she was nine years old, except the three years she was in Germany.
Heather's parents were both Protestants who converted to the latter day saints church. She made a conscious decision six years ago to separate herself from the LDS church and has been attending a progressive nondenominational Christian Church for the past five years. She's not a fan of organized religion or being called religious, but I have witnessed that Heather loves God.
Heather holds a bachelor's degree in sociology and criminal justice, and currently works as a program manager for the United States air force. She's a single mom of a 17 year old daughter who is going into her senior year of high school. Heather's daughter is biracial and is one of a very few minorities at her high school.
As the area is 95% white. Another factor in being a minority is that they are not Mormon in Utah. Heather's engaged to a Nigerian who she dated while they were both in Germany, they are waiting for his visa approvals so they can be reunited. Heather would love to see her daughter grow up in a world that treats her as equal.
thank you for offering ahead of time to start off our conversation with the prayer.
Heather: Absolutely father God, we are gathered here today in your name.
I'm so thankful for Barbara for her leaning forward in this call that you've given her to reach out, to engage different members of your church on different topics to educate and enlighten anyone who happens to join and listen. God, we pray today that our discussion will be a blessing to those who will be inspired to hear it.
God, we pray that we will keep in mind that we are called to love and that as neighbors and friends and your church, we are called to do this without judgment. And also without fear, God, we ask you to guide this discussion with your spirit. We pray that it will be over this time that we have together.
I'm so thankful God and so grateful for this opportunity. To share some of my feelings and, and my experiences on this subject. And hopefully it will be a blessing. Thank you, father. God, we pray in your name. Jesus Christ. Amen.
Barbara: Amen. human rights is a global as well as a local topic. There are many resources from the United nations to faith groups, to the Bible.
We mentioned a passage from Mark chapter 12 during a previous podcast about the command to love our neighbors, which is in several books of the Bible. Part of a parable in the gospel of Matthew illustrates how we can care for our neighbors.
A parable is a story to illustrate a moral and or spiritual point.
Here's Matthew chapter 25 verses 35 and 36 from the message:
I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and you gave me a drink. I was homeless and you gave me a room. I was shivering and you gave me clothes. I was sick and you stopped to visit. I was in prison and you came to me.
There's more to this parable than just the verses I read, but they are foundational to human rights.
I'm intrigued that you had mentioned to me that you had some folks over to your home for a conversation about race. And I'm really interested in learning a little bit more about that. Is this something that you just kind of said, I want to do this and you figured it out by yourself, or is this something that is sort of becoming known that there's information out there that people can check out?
Heather: since I felt highly engaged in social justice, human rights for the black population, specifically in the United States, but also when I lived in Germany, I got to witness for myself that there was a need there for that, group of refugees from Africa specifically. I got to interact with them quite a bit.
And I loved it. I didn't seek that out, but it found me and I love that God put me in a place where that happened and it was very motivating for me to continue to develop what I believe is my preparation to serve in this call that he's given me. And I still don't know exactly how I'm going to really do that. I'm a relatively new member of the Christian mainstream faith. So I'm still developing that walk with him as far as how he's going to lead me forward in it. But, as far as the discussion with my friends here, I had posted sometimes on social media. And I think people saw my heart on this issue for a long time. And, I want to stop here and mention that this is something that I've really struggled with because Facebook can be so enlightening, but at the same time, so frustrating that I took a long pause from it when I came back. I've been back home for a year now and I took a break. For a good four or five months.
I didn't look at it. I didn't post anything. I just was tired of the anger and the negativity I was seeing there. But I've kind of thought about that again and thought, maybe our voices have to still be heard. And maybe they're not always heard over the negativity, but I know that my friend reached out to me.
the one that inspired me to have this meeting, because she had seen what I had posted in the past. And so whether a person likes or comments or mentioned to you, a post that you've posted in love and in the right spirit at the time that you post it, they may be watching you and watching how you're reacting or how you're showing your feelings in your heart on whatever topic it is. Yes. And later it can bear fruit. So in this instance, this friend, who happens to be a member of my former church, the Mormon church, she reached out, knowing. That I have a biracial daughter and that I have a African fiance and that I have always advocated for racial justice and racial harmony.
she asked me if I could be a resource to her to answer some questions that she had, because the recent, movement in the U S and the tension around the racial justice movement that's going on right now had really awakened her spirit to an issue that she may not have really been aware of as a need to ponder. So she reached out to me and I was very happy to talk to her. give her my advice or my. Experience on the subject and point her two sons resources that she could look into and educate herself and become more aware of the issues surrounding this. But then she had a deep need to talk about it in person.
And it's hard to hear because. This state while I mentioned is very loving and very kind and generous. it's not very diverse and I I'm sure that that's the case in areas where other listeners that you have are living. even in areas where there's a lot of racial diversity in the general area, we still tend as Americans to.
Be segregated when we go home or when we go to church. I think I've heard before. It's said that Sunday morning is the most segregated time of the week in the U S so, my friend didn't have any way to interact with the black community because it's not, easily accessible to do that.
In her circles and I didn't feel good about her reaching out to friends on Facebook and just, out of the blue to start talking to them, because that was something that we talked about in my discussion. That's not a great idea right now. if you have black friends and you haven't talked to them in a long time and you don't have a relationship and ongoing.
Communicative relationship with that friend. This isn't not the time to reach out and start trying to talk to them. And we can go into that if you'd like about why I don't think that's a good idea right now. I've heard
Barbara: it before also that to expect, any person to either represent any kind of group that they're part of or even one person might have five different people come up to them and say, Hey, teach me or something.
And we have many resources available to us and talking is great. So neither of us are saying don't talk to people, but there's other ways to educate yourself. there's already books written. There's already blog posts out there. There's a lot of information. Yeah to access, to get to first
Heather: you're so right, Barbara and, then I think, it's always great to read and to watch the fantastic documentaries that you may be able to stream at your home right now.
there's so many good ones. we could talk about that for an entire episode, but. around this specific discussion, this friend, she didn't necessarily ask me to have a meeting at my house. In fact, she didn't ask me , but as I was pondering, how do I engage this friend? without putting a burden on a community that right now is really hurting and has been for a long time and it's not their responsibility.
To educate those of us that may be feeling guilty or maybe being awakened to this movement and realizing the part that we played by not doing anything. It's not their responsibility to, shoulder that burden of education or, relieving guilt, because they have enough to think about and deal with right now around this subject. That we don't need to be adding to that. So, it just came to me and I'm sure it was the spirit leading that said, you have opened your home many times, Heather and I have this, sense that I really want to have community in my home. And I tried it in different ways. when I first.
Became a nondenominational Christian. I opened my home to a woman's Bible study that was before it went to Germany and it was wonderful. And, I learned so much, but I just have this desire to, to do that. And God reminded me of that again. And he, it was clear to me that having a discussion, an open, friendly, loving, and nonjudgmental space where people could come and talk about.
Sincere questions that they have and not be judged as ignorant if they ask them online or, if they engage the wrong person that doesn't have a loving spirit, that could go bad and it could push that person away from wanting to research and. Open their minds more to this topic of human rights.
So, I thought I'm gonna just put it out there. And I was really selective in who I invited to that first meeting. it was specific friends that I knew were open to this and that really desire to understand and that they could be an influence and maybe, That it would ripple out. So I was intentional in who I invited.
And unfortunately, a lot of people that I invited that were interested, for one reason or another didn't end up coming, but the one friend that inspired all this was here and another friend, and then my daughter and her friend, and we had a great discussion. I think it was great. I think it was helpful. I think we will definitely do it again because I had friends that couldn't make it, would ask me to do this again. And so I'm really energized and excited to do that. I'm really excited to have women in my home. I have a very diverse friend group. I felt like this was a time for people to let their guard down and really be open to hear, on this topic. And I didn't want anyone to feel uncomfortable having To talk about maybe feelings that they've had.
Or that they grew up around on the subject of racial equality and be looking at a person that they may have slighted in their thoughts. So, I will do it again. And, I think next time I'll be more open just to questions instead of trying to prepare ahead of time, a list of things that I thought we should discuss.
Barbara: It sounds like you've created an environment where people could feel physically and emotionally safe and then have that conversation and there's room for more, for an ongoing conversation.
Heather: Yeah. And we're having it right now and I love that. And, you know, God made me a talker and he gives us all a different.
Mindsets different hearts, different behavior. And mine is to be really open to anybody to talk about anything. And I know that comes from God and I'm not boasting in myself only in God. So I love that. We got to use that, to advance this topic a little bit more in my community. And I love that there's more opportunity in the future to do that. I don't know where God is going to lead me with this. If it's ever going to become something that's established or there's some kind of organization around it right now, it's very loose. And I'm just seeing where there's a need in my community to help people understand better. I look forward to finding out exactly where I'm going to go with it.
Barbara: Great. It sounds like it's coming from your heart and that's one of your gifts. Not everybody, like you said, has the same gifts and that's okay.
Heather: So, thinking about, spiritual gifts , there are gifts of grace that are mentioned enrollments, and. Prayer that you mentioned is absolutely one that I think we should all be doing, but some people are going to be led to specifically pray, and to be a prayer warrior and to pray for a certain thing or a certain cause.
certain group of people for other people there's gifts of mercy. And that might look like, Hey, I'm going to go out and I'm going to serve at a homeless shelter, or I'm going to go serve the refugee community in my area. Or I'm going to invite, people to fellowship with me either through my church or my home, or however that looks.
there's also people that God gives the gift of generosity and he blesses them financially. I hope we don't pigeonhole anybody or ourselves. And to thinking the only way that I can help with this is either to become a community activist or to give money because that's not the only way.
And the easiest and the most cost effective way is to pray and ask God to bless that specific sector, that specific issue. But, if you have resources and you feel led to share them, whether they're time, money, or your home or whatever your faith, we should be sharing our faith.
And that is a resource that's renewable. And I should mention this because it's really important. I think, there's been a lot of talk about dignity. so I love that we're talking about that today. I want to make clear that as you help or as you're inclined to repent. Of any, judgment that you've had for certain people.
I don't feel that you are going to lose anything by trying to help others. You don't lose dignity by trying to help others to recover theirs. And so the fear that I think that some in the Christian Church have that they're going to somehow give up their rights to see the rights advance of another group.
That's not based in God's teaching at all.
Barbara: It's not a pie that if my slice is going to get smaller, I can see how it might seem that way. Yeah. And I'm willing to give up some of my privilege, but we're not saying during this conversation of radical transformation, that's a whole nother episode.
Heather: God doesn't give you dignity only to take it away and give it to somebody else. He's only asking people that have, the resources or the ability to help his children that may not be able to fully realize. The dignity that some of us are able to, because of the way society is structured is only asking us to help them.
Those that have less opportunity for that. It doesn't diminish mine at all. In fact, it increases my dignity to show love and to show forbearance. And to, allow God to work through me, to on behalf of other parts of his church in his kingdom. So I hope that people see that my heart is really heavy right now about how the Christian Church is so divided on this specific topic and how some people are seeing this as a scary thing that for me, who is called to.
support and advocate for the black community. It's really hard for me to see that there are Christians that I know are loving people, but they may have a hard heart about this. And they're seeing that this is somehow an affront to their faith or their freedom. I hope that their hearts change on that.
And I may not be the one that can be that, but I'll do my best with people that are open and receptive to it.
Barbara: I'm glad you mentioned that for some people making a contribution to an organization that's working on these issues might be a way that they can get involved. for some people how they invest their money can also have an impact on human rights and.
Like you said, even helping with your local soup kitchen, if you've got some time and none of that may be easier than the other thing you might think, Oh, it's easy to write a check or you might think, Oh, it's easy to serve soup, but sometimes it might be challenging.
It might be heartbreaking. People aren't always polite. I know you said that you're in a particularly friendly area, but people have the right to have messy lives and to have difficulties. And sometimes people say unkind things and I'm not inviting that. I hope you have a great experience if you want to do some volunteer work.
But it's not supposed to be tons of fun, although wouldn't it be great if there was a community of care around a certain issue?
Heather: So that's an interesting, thought Barbara, because I feel like what God calls you to and what you feel led towards. You're going to feel energized to do that and to work in that area and God won't make you feel it's a burden or a hassle.
And so any time that you get to engage with that, like I'm doing right now with you, I feel energized and I feel hopeful and I feel good and I feel positive. So if you're giving to an organization out of guilt or out of a sense of, I need to prove myself to God , I should be more enlightened on this, you need to really consider that God loves a cheerful giver. So, if he gave you the thought to give, you should definitely obey that, but think about why you're doing it. And I'm not talking only giving money, again, giving time giving of yourself, make sure that you're in the right place with that.
Make sure that your heart is in the right place with that. And if it's not, then you might need to work on why it's not. Or you may need to say, is this really where God is calling me to be giving? Maybe I need to step back and look at where he wants me to be doing that. So, one thing that I was led to do in Germany, we traveled quite a bit.
It was fantastic to be with my daughter there because her eyes were open to the world, and she got such an education from these different cultures and I've always. Then incredibly interested in learning about other cultures. So, I am a very talkative and open person. Believe it or not, I'm actually kind of an introvert, but I can talk to anybody that I meet on the street or a homeless person, a person in a position of power and have a great conversation with them. And, and I always feel that God is leading those conversations. So I love it. It really energizes me. So, I talked to many times to people and one thing I decided on one of our early trips was any Euro that I had left in my pocket. When we were leaving that country, I would find somebody to give it to a stranger, or even while we were there and I saw panhandlers or, people, God would lead me by the spirit to certain people.
And I may have passed five on that block, but there would be that one that God would lead me to, and I would give to, and God will do that for you if your heart is open. An another point that I have to make is that we have to make sure that money isn't, our idol, possessions are not our idol.
So as we think about this topic of our blessings, our lives of luxury and those that have less. We have to make sure that we're not so tied to our positions, our money, that it hurts us to give it away because it's really only what God gave me.
And so my prayer going into Germany, because I was blessed with a little windfall, selling my house, I did pretty well. And I asked God, I want you to tell me what to do with that money. And I'm not going to tell you everything I did with it, because I think giving should be done anonymously and not to boast.
I did some big things with it. I did many small things with it. But I didn't feel that it was mine. So I love that God will lead you. And if you commit your time, your resources to that, he will show you how best to use that and not to condemn yourself , if you feel like you're not doing enough, or you're not doing it in the right way, that's not him.
That's not him because God will gently redirect you. And say, Hey, Heather, you know, right now I'm not calling you to give big sums of money because I know that you can't. but here's where I think you should be looking. And so you shouldn't feel bad Heather, that you're not giving to my children right now, because you're not in that position.
So, that to me is important. We all have these ideas and obviously I'm back in the U S now, and I'm not traveling all over the place because of the virus. So the practice that I had of giving what was left in my pocket, when I left a place, I can't do that. Right. You know, it's just not possible.
And I really miss that travel by the way. It's so fantastic. and those experiences, I'll never forget. I really need to document all these amazing different people that I talked to. I just think the people that God created are so amazing and it was such a blessing to be in contact with them.
And, I love, especially being in contact with people that have struggled and still have their dignity. When God says do it to the least of these, we have to be careful also that we're not focusing on that word least and saying, Oh, God is saying that these people are less than me because honestly we could learn so much from people with less, with less resources, with less, maybe less physical material resources about how to really worship God in those circumstances and how, they are, to me, some of the most loving and open, people in their worship of God. And we should never say, well, I'm more in tune with God because he's blessing me with all these resources.
I actually believe sometimes that we're less in tune because. We are focused too much on what we have, does that make sense?
Barbara: Yes. God never said blessed are the rich, and in fact, in the new Testament, there's at least one place I can think of where the Beattitudes talk about the people who are downtrodden the grieving, the poor, the poor in spirit- for all practical purposes may be better off, will be lifted up. So something that's controversial in some circles, is to say I'm blessed- yes, I'm incredibly grateful for the blessings that I have, but it doesn't mean that I'm blessed and then therefore someone else's not blessed when things just feel like the sky is falling in this person's life.
It doesn't mean that they're being punished by God or that they're out of favor. To me, it means there’s sin in the world. And the way things are set up, sometimes things are just really awful circumstances for some people.
Heather: And sometimes it can be a redirection in your life and not a curse or that person sinned and so God is taking away from them. Sometimes it can be just a redirection to say, Hey, you were getting a little too big for your britches there, you know, to use an old school term. And, I'm gonna pull you back there because I need to humble you. There's been many times in my own life where I needed the humbling and God gave it to me.
And, then as humans, we get in this cycle where after a while we get back into that mentality where we're feeling too comfortable and we love our stuff and God will remind us again. Hey, you need to be humble. I see that as a learning experience and I don't ever want to judge somebody and say, wow, they're on the street and they're homeless because of their own.
Sin or their own fault because you really never, never know what's going on with that person. Something that I worked towards, that was a secondary, passion of my heart. I guess you could say it was homeless veterans. So we did a drive, in my workplace. So the base that I work at had a Group called the junior leadership council. And this was several years ago and we were asked for proposals for different projects. And I don't remember if I had just watched something about that trends that, were homeless or why the God had put that in my heart at that time. I just felt like we should do something for homeless veterans since we're part of the military community. So I got a hold of the VA hospital in salt Lake and. I found out that they have this annual homeless veterans stand down.
And we gathered around 1200 articles of clothing in our work group of about 600 people. we had donation Areas set up where people could bring in clothing that they wanted to donate to almost veterans. And, It was such a great way to, give back to this community of people that we enjoy the fruits of their labors, in the military and defending our freedom here in this country.
But through PTSD, any kind of trauma that they've had or different issues, addiction. They have become homeless and. It was really awesome. So there's different, ways that you can do that.
Barbara: that's another great example of how can we serve our neighbor. So that's not where we started, but that's along the path of talking about this huge issue that impacts millions of people across our entire planet is what can just an average person do.
So we've listed a few resources already. Are there any other resources you can think of Heather?
Heather: I want to tell you about two groups that I'm involved with. There's a group called SURJ. It's stands for showing up for racial justice - you can find them online, they're active on Facebook. There should be a community in your area. And it's a network of human rights, advocacy groups.
I'm really impressed with them so far and I want to become more involved. I think the local chapter here in Utah had lost interest as far as members wanting to meet for a while. But because God has reawakened this movement recently, there's a lot of people joining and wanting to be involved in.
So I think they're going to become more active. There's probably a SURJ in your area. Another one that I am involved with as far as just discussion and education is a group called coming to the table. I found them through Facebook and these are both multicultural groups where their focus is to bridge racial gaps, economic gaps, inequality gaps, and just to come together in a spirit of understanding of support and, to help to provide that dignity for people that may not be able to exercise it right now and a group that is underserved or underrepresented.
Barbara: I really look forward to checking both of those resources out. And I love that you said just spending time with people can be nice. On the one hand you don't always have to expect someone to tell you their whole life story and to teach you everything, but maybe somebody wants to talk or just have a conversation about anything random.
Heather: you have to start there a lot of the times you can't just jump in with both feet into some of these societies where the people are very fragile and they're very weary of.
You know, Oh, here comes another person that wants to help. They're going to be here for a week or a month, and then I'm never going to see them again. Why do I want to open myself to that person? But I think the spirit can tell somebody when there's room to be open. And, so if you start with just listening to that person, then you kind of build that connection with them, but don't do that just for your own self edification to say, Oh yeah, I have friends that are homeless that I've talked to.
So anything that I mentioned today that I've done personally, it wasn't to boast or to say, Oh yeah, I know a lot of refugees. That was actually my curiosity and my being led towards those people and really desiring to understand their life.
Barbara: I believe you're also coming from a loving heart that you're not doing research or wanting to retraumatize anyone to the best of my knowledge of you, Heather.
You're not like, Oh, tell me your story, even if it's painful for them, sometimes people don't want to retell their story all the time, but just out of sincere conversation. And I also believe that you agree that we can learn from other people just because we went to college or whatever doesn't mean that people need to always be learning from us far from it.
We can learn from absolutely anyone.
Heather: book learning, institutionalized learning is great and we all have our special field of interest, but I love to learn from people just through their life experiences. That really makes the most impact on me. And I think that's why my friends wanted to talk to me about, racial inequality, because they know that I have personal experience with that.
And we desire that connection as human beings, where we want to connect with somebody. When we're interested in a topic, we want to connect with somebody that has that, Background or that experience, that they can share it with us, but we have to be careful also that we're, don't exploit that person, that we don't really take the time to know them, but we just ask them, Hey, dump on me all of this experience that you have, and then I'm going to leave you.
what is our purpose for serving that person and how do we connect with that person? What do they need from us? Not just, how can I feel better about myself by asking you about your experiences? And then we never talk again. so make an effort to connect with people in different ways that you feel red.
But make sure that you're doing it in the right heart, in the right frame of mind. I think that if we all did that, that this world would be such a better place. we have so much work to do, to recognize and to see the humanity in every person. and it's hard for a lot of people it's just easier to.
Stay in your lane, keep your head down, do what you're supposed to do to get through that day and not go out of your way. And right now I'm not in a position where I'm really seeing a diverse community of people. Other than when I go to my church, which is a very open and, progressive church where we have all kinds of people.
But to me this time in my life is. More to impact people that are more like me and help them to make an impact on more people in their circles.
Barbara: That's an interesting perspective, because we might want to be in a certain environment where we're comfortable or where we feel useful.
So how can we be useful or serve right where we're at? Let's ponder that. I hate to draw this conversation to a close. Heather, this has been lovely. I really appreciate your wisdom and your heart and your insights. And I think we're going to have to do this again soon.
Heather: Yeah, I would love that any time I am keeping your podcast and your listeners in my prayers. and I am excited to see where this goes for you, Barbara. you're blending two things that I really love, which are podcasts and learning more about faith and talking about God. So I'm excited for you.
Barbara: Thank you.
Resources: