Music with Joanne — 40 Minutes of Faith

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Joanne Hines and we'll be talking about and listening to music today. I met Joanne when I was a member of the praise band at Christ The King Lutheran Church in Holliston, Massachusetts. Joanne was baptized, confirmed and married in the congregational tradition. She grew up in Holliston, lived in Pennsylvania for a few years, Saugus, Massachusetts, and then New Hampshire, ending up back in Holliston. Joanne has worked in the field of music for 28 years, teaching playing the piano at church for 14 years, and serving as music director for a children's theater for 20 years. She would love to write more music, especially for piano, with other instruments. We'll get to hear some original music in a few minutes, too. Welcome, Joanne! How are things in Holliston these days?

Joanne: Good, things are quiet. Like they are most places right now. It is starting to warm up.

Barbara: I'm glad to hear that. Our Bible passage today is Psalm 150. The Psalms are right in the middle of your Bible, if you want to follow along with us. Here are all six verses of Psalm, 150 from the new international version:

“Praise the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; Praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise him with the harp and lyre, Praise him with timbrel and dancing, Praise him with the strings and pipe, Praise him with the clash of cymbals, Praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.”

Joanne, it seems kind of obvious why you might have selected the Psalm for us today, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about music in the Bible, especially here in this Psalm.

Joanne: I like the Psalm because they actually talk about different instruments as opposed to just the voice as an instrument. And it talks about trumpet and cymbals. I first learned about this when we did a celebration of our band leader, 25 years, he started the band, and pastor Mark, our pastor, read this out loud.

And I thought, Oh, this is my verse. I love this, that it spoke to instruments other than just the voice, because you do hear a lot about raising the voice to the Lord, but there are other ways to raise your voice with musical instruments.

Barbara: I have a question for you later about different types of musical instruments, but this really highlights the diverse ways of praising God and even dancing is there, which for a lot of people is part of music. Not always in church, though. How did you get started with church music?

Joanne: I actually got started at Christ the King. In the congregational church, I had volunteered when they needed a sub I would volunteer to play. But really the pastor that was at Christ the King at the time ran into me at the gas station. And I hadn't seen him since I was a teenager and I used to do things in the community. I would play a baccalaureate. And that's how he knew me and my parents, who are now gone. And he said, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm playing the piano. What, you're playing the piano? And what I didn't know was they needed a pianist for the band.

Barbara: And there you have your God moment in the gas station, folks.

Joanne: Yeah, it was though something was speaking to me and I went to the Pastor, looked at the music. I thought, well, I don't know any of these songs. I mean, there's no music, there's only chords for the music. And she said, it's okay. You can learn by ear and figure it all out. And that was 14 years ago.

Barbara: it sounds like you weren't one of the founding members of the band, but do you know how they got started? How did a Lutheran church in suburban Boston, Massachusetts decide to start a praise band?

Joanne: Well, the pastor who had been there for 47 years went out to I think Arizona to go to one of the big churches there and see what a contemporary service was like. And he brought that back to Christ the King 25, 26 years ago. And I'm sure there was a huge learning curve. And he brought back all this information and they just started ramping up and pulling songs and putting things together.

Barbara: Neat. So it was sort of a visionary idea that might've been an experiment and ended up really taking off.

Joanne: Yes, you're right.

Barbara: When you think of the band on an average, Sunday, about how many players do you have? What's the most number of musicians and singers you've ever had standing together at the same time or what's the bare minimum number of folks for the band?

Joanne: the bare minimum would be the people who sing lead. So generally we get around six people. We have violinist and then Jim, who really is the leader of the band, he's plays drum, bass guitar when he gets to, then we have a guitarist and we have a bass player and a flute player. So it's basically that core group.

We have done it with three, as long as we have one lead singer. And if that's not available, and this has happened because they're volunteers and mine is a staff position. I just play some contemporary songs that have notation that people can sing along with during the service, if there's no one else. And the most I think we've ever had is probably 11 because we have some teenagers that come in and out of college for a month or so, and we work around their schedules.

Barbara: That's helpful in case anyone's wondering, what does it take, that you can have your small core and then ebb and flow as people are available.

And the congregation loves the music. So this isn't a performance, you're not selling tickets. This is part of a worship service. So they understand if someone's out sick or on vacation, let's be grateful for what we have.

Joanne: Exactly.

Barbara: So I am hoping that we can play a little bit of music today for folks to demonstrate some concepts. And there's a bunch of stuff we're not going to be playing that we would really love to play because music is copyrighted and licensed, and we want to honor that. So somebody might think, well, you probably won't get into trouble, but it doesn't matter. It's not the right thing to do.

So there's 150 songs that we would love to play, but we do have a few examples because there is a time after a certain number of years when music is in the public domain. And then there's no risk of having any licensing infringement. And most congregations pay for certain licensure so that they can play music and have that even electronically.

But my first question was when we're talking about different styles of music, sort of within worship services is the concept of modernizing time signatures. And what that means is that a lot of music as it's written has a steady beat and people know what to expect. It's a familiar song.

And then we were talking about how do you jazz things up? And one example recently has been the national Anthem, and I actually don't have any problem with how it was modified a bit or maybe liberties taken with it at the inauguration ceremony, or even at the super bowl. I enjoyed that, but that's an example of how I know it made some people crazy because when you know the rhythm, it's supposed to be a certain way.

And then it's kind of loosened up a little bit. So I was wondering if we could illustrate that with A Mighty Fortress is Our God, which is a classic Lutheran hymn with just a few measures of the original, the way it was written really formally. And then we can talk for a minute about different ways of interpreting that.

Joanne: So with A Mighty Fortress, the big difference really is the tempo. I have heard it played almost like a funeral march, like a dirge, which drives me crazy because when we play in the contemporary service, it has a much more celebratory feel to it. So if I was in a congregation I'll just play a couple of bars, so it might start

[piano music on the audio recording]

So that would be how an organist plays. If it was a band, there might be an introduction the band leader would count it off and pops it up a bit. [piano music on audio]

Barbara: so the tune is still there. The basics are still there. There might be a little bit of extra music. It sounded like you had a little extra bass notes going there. And a little, I don't know if swing is the right word to use or just pep. And I should have said sooner that I absolutely love organ music. I'm a big fan of classical music. I'll just get goosebumps hearing a pipe organ thundering away. So this doesn't seem like we're bashing and I know you feel the same way, Joanne. We're not saying old music needs to get thrown out- under no circumstances, but how does it feel when you sing it in a jazzier version?

Joanne: I think it gives it a different feel. I think sometimes the slower version gives you an opportunity to really focus on the words; the jazzier version gives you a sense of more of a celebration and that's the word I had thought immediately when I first saw the contemporary service was that it feels like a celebration. You go out feeling like, yes, I'm ready for my weekends, celebrated my love of God. And not that I don't get that from the traditional service, but I really do get that from the contemporary service. And you add a little extra music in there that gives people time, like in between versus there's what you call a turnaround, which would bring you back to the beginning. You have a little extra music, it gives people a sense of, okay, now we're ready to go back to the next verse.

Barbara: everyone really has their own individual response to how they feel refreshed and renewed. Some people feel tremendously comforted by the predictable liturgy in some faith traditions. And then other folks don't need the hymnal and the bulletin. And we're not talking about onscreen stuff today, but there's just a lot of different ways to praise God. And for me, that's the purpose of this conversation.

Joanne: I agree.

Barbara: I know you had mentioned a few different instruments that are part of the praise band. And I'm wondering if you have any fun or unusual instruments that are part of the band just from time to time, maybe not necessarily every weekend, or you mentioned really the drum, piano, guitar and vocals are key? And you mentioned violin and flute, also trumpet, especially on Easter?

Joanne: we did have a trumpet player for quite some time, and then he retired to the Cape, and he was wonderful. We had a saxophone player for quite some time, but we also have a young teenage girl, Eric Amtman is one of the lead vocalists, it’s his daughter, and she has a lovely voice, and she plays a ukulele and it just adds a different texture.

Barbara: fun. What sorts of technical requirements- could you just give a brief little overview that church say that's thinking about starting a praise band might want to be aware about besides just the physical instruments?

Joanne: you need people who have strong voices, at least one or two. And you don't necessarily need to be able to read music, but it is helpful to be able to read music, especially if you're gonna play some songs that have notation, at least the pianist. I read music and the violinist and the flute player we all read music. It's not critical because you can learn a lot of these songs by ear.

And a funny story is that one of my first years, we have a couple hundred songs and we would just rifle through all of them. And at one point I stopped playing and I looked over at Jim, the band leader. I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're playing this piece in four. And he said, yeah.

I said, yeah, but it's written in three. Oh, he said, can you play it four? Well, play it again for me. All right. We can play that in four. So my music it's all marked up. Change this to four.

Barbara: did it sound bad- because I'm guessing it actually kind of worked?

Joanne: It worked. All I could do was to add an extra beat to every measure. No longer sounds like a waltz. Yeah, my brain was going, wait a minute, wait a minute! But it's a great thing for a musician to be challenged like that thinking, how am I going to do this and keep up? They were the experts, they knew all this music, they've been singing together for years.

And I think sound equipment is a good thing. We have a new sound board and sometimes we have an electric guitarist and then the violinist has a pickup that she hooks up into the soundboard so you can hear her. So that's a good thing to do.

I think you could probably do it with acoustic instruments. Yeah, a drum, a piano, a violin, especially depending on the size of the church.

Barbara: So we're not saying you need a whole bunch of money to spend on a whole bunch of fancy equipment, start with what you have. But if you're looking at how are we going to do this? Eventually, if there's a lot of people in the room, then some sound equipment would be helpful.

Joanne: Yes, exactly.

Barbara: Any other technical advice? If someone is thinking about starting this up?

Joanne: Well, I think for a lot of people having the recorded music to listen to makes a big difference. I know for me, the first year I listened to everything.

So if you have recorded music, you can listen to and learn from them and practice at home. That makes a big difference too. And that's an easy thing, especially now we have Song select through CCLI.

Barbara: that's one of the licensing companies.

Joanne: Yes. And I can hear a song on Christian radio and go on and get it through the licensing company. I can get a lead sheet, which is good for the violinist or the flute player, and also charts. And lyrics, which can be put into the bulletin.

Barbara: I just Googled it. Cause that's all I needed. And then I said, well, wait, there's three different versions. Which one? Which one are we doing?

One thing that I noticed and that I really enjoyed, Joanne, is that prayer time during the service that we're talking about right now included very soft and gentle background music. And there may be folks out there that say, no, you can do your prayers in silence.

Which of course is absolutely true. Many traditional church services just have the prayers read and there's no music in the background, but I believe that some people find that to be really meditative and peaceful with the goal of it creating a helpful environment. And I was so happy to learn that you write your own music.

And sometimes if there was a particular piece of music being played during that church service, then during the prayer time, you would play your own version of that tune. And I was wondering if we could invite listeners to pray on their own for just about a minute while we listened to some music with no talking. I've never done this before in a podcast episode, but just to kind of show an example of what kind of music might be played in the background during prayers now during the church service, someone usually is talking, but just right now, we wouldn't talk for about 60 seconds. How does that sound?

Joanne: sounds fine. Would you like me to play something I have written?

Barbara: that would be fabulous. Just whatever you can, because I totally trust your judgment in terms of what you would play during a church service during prayer time.

Joanne: I have one called places to dream that I wrote right after my dad died. And I have played this one at church- it was some time ago

Barbara: So we invite you to a time of prayer, personal prayer.

[piano music]

Barbara: Thank you so much, Joanne. I feel like music is a language and some people listen to it and really treasure it. And maybe some people feel like they can sort of speak that language or just, it goes sort of deep into our body.

Joanne: I have this little plaque in my piano studio that says, God gave us music that we might pray without words.

Barbara: And especially if you happen to be playing music, but nobody's singing, but you recognize the tune and you happen to know the words that go with it. You might be singing inside. Even though you don't need words to pray.

I have another logistical question for you around rehearsal time. I know you said many of the songs they've been sung for years. People are familiar with them, but either when learning a new song, or I don't know if you notice rehearsals used to take longer and they take a little less time now, or maybe rehearsing certain songs takes less time.

What sort of time investment are folks looking at? Especially if they're learning new music.

Joanne: our rehearsal time is Wednesday nights for about an hour and a half. And then Sunday morning before the service for about an hour. And you're right. That will change depending on the music.

So if we've been playing some of these songs for 15 years, there's not a lot of rehearsal time that we need. Unless we want to mix things up and that just happens sometimes, we'll mix up an extra chorus or something like that. But when we’re learning new music, we might run through the music that we are maybe not as familiar with, and then focus on learning a new song. And we have a sound system so we'll just pull it up on our phone and if I've already downloaded the license, then we can play along with the CD. And then that takes a little more time because then it takes a number of weeks to kind of get the flow, so the vocalists know exactly where to sing. And so the new songs take a little longer.

Barbara: And once you've rehearsed it enough that you know it, Jim will just tap the drumsticks three times or four, depending on the time signature. And then it'll just get started right away. Cause you've done it so many times that it feels comfortable and people know what to do.

Joanne: Right. And some of those songs are very comforting for the congregation. They've heard them for years. The new ones it's important to play with the congregation, then invite them to sing along, particularly in the chorus. Because the chorus, as you know, happens frequently throughout the piece and the verses the music's basically the same, but the words change, but the chorus pretty much stays the same.

So you invite the congregation to sing along and then eventually you'll do it again in a few more weeks and then a few more weeks. And then the congregation gets to know the song because when there's no written music for people to follow along, not that everybody reads music, but you can see when the line goes up in the line step. It can be uncomfortable for some people, but once they've heard it a number of times, it’s ok.

Barbara: I'm really glad you pointed out that contemporary music sounds all newfangled, but Michael W. Smith has had Friends out for decades and that's a very special song to the band. And it really was always very special to the whole congregation in general, but one of the lead singers just had the voice of an angel, it was devastating when she became sick and passed away. So contemporary music isn't all newfangled.

Joanne: Yes. And one of our favorite things, Robin Mark, he's been around for 20 years, 25 years. He's written a vast amount of music. And his music is very comforting and tells a story and it doesn't have to be, like you said, brand new and edgy.

Barbara: And some people love edgy. I had the chance in Germany to worship at a couple of different military chapel services, and there's still new music coming out every day. And some of it, I thought, I've never heard this before. So there's even sort of different areas or niches of contemporary music. For me, it's contemporary, but it's 20 years old. So that's not contemporary.

Joanne: There's a lot of new stuff. I have stuff that pops up on my Spotify list because I have a playlist of praise music, and they will guess new things like Casting Crowns.

Barbara: How about a favorite band story or memory? One of mine is singing the fruit of the spirit with the children's choir, and we can't play it for everybody. And there are several versions out there but go ahead and take a look in your own time at all the different versions of the fruit of the spirit.

Joanne: The kids choir never sang with the band before. And when I took over the kid's choir, we get to sing with the band, and watching the adults with the kids is just phenomenal because it seemed like the kids were left out of being able to sing along with the band. We've got to get the kids, especially for the fruit song. And they catch onto the music quickly and they love it.

Barbara: One of my favorite memories is learning how powerful non-traditional music can be, even in very solemn times because we've talked so far about how much of the music is cheerful or uplifting.

And I always knew, say on good Friday, we would sing Were You There When They Crucified My Lord? And that always brings tears to my eyes, but then when the band with just a few instruments, maybe even just one or two, and a voice would sing a song called Above All that also brings tears to my eyes. And I just love that song.

And I want to listen to it all the time, but it's not the traditional good Friday hymn that you might think of, but it's still really incredibly powerful.

Joanne: It is. That one and the version of amazing grace called Oh, amazing. The melody is different, but the words are the same. And it's powerful. It's a different way of looking at the same lyrics. And I think people have an opportunity to hear the lyrics again, when it's a different melody.

Barbara: That's a really good point. I noticed that at Christmas and I love this Joanne and I hope there's not a lot of people that this just drives them crazy, but the Christmas carols were sung to alternate tunes and I loved it.

Yeah, there's just so many different ways of doing things. So if anyone has a moment look up Above All, if you're not familiar with it, and of course there's a bunch of different artists that sing it in different manners, but just to honor there's tradition and there's new tradition and it can get all mixed up. And for some people that's really wonderful.

Joanne: Yes. And our good Friday service, which may not happen this year because of the pandemic, but we have a mix of hymns and then the band sings a few songs too, which is a nice mix. So people hear that the hymns they grew up with, yet they'll hear something a little more contemporary as well.

Barbara: nice. Now, one of the critiques that I've heard, is that some people feel that contemporary music has lyrics that are really oversimplified from hymns. And I have a proposed example to sort of demonstrate this because like I said before, I like hymns. I have no problem with hymns, but with this particular one that I have in mind that sort of blends the two.

The traditional him is called Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing. The hymnal that I have has three verses. And like you said, you kind of go right from the first verse into the second verse, and all the words are printed out, which also can sometimes be difficult for people who have issues with reading.

And I have heard both sides of this oversimplification argument. I can see how somebody might say that, but I also feel, you said a few minutes ago, sometimes it can be really powerful and meditative to have just fewer words along the same theme. And that's what happens in another version that's called Come Thou Fount, Come Thou King, where the traditional verses are there, but they're interspersed with a longer, I don't know if you would call it a chorus or a bridge.

That just has fewer words and a different pace. So I'm wondering, could we do the same thing like we did before, play however much you want of the original hymn, and then we can show people the chorus or bridge of how to combine these two concepts?

[piano music]

Joanne: So that would be the first couple of lines in the hymnal. And that's how it starts with Come Thou Fount, Come Thou King, but when you get to the chorus the music's totally different. It's

[piano music]

Barbara: So it's echoing, but the words are Come thou fount, come thou King, come down, Precious Prince of peace. And then those words are repeated a few times.

Joanne: So similar words, different music, but it stands apart from the beginning.

Barbara: And then there's some that don't really have any relationship to a previous hymn.

But we just thought this might be one way to show a unique approach

Joanne: yes.

Barbara: I did find an article that I'm going to post to the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com.

An article written on a website called pastor theologians.com about this question of lyrics, because I wanted to really understand and not just brush it to the side and not just say, Oh, Hey, contemporary music is perfect. Don't criticize it. And this particular author was asking. Is the song clearly written to God? Because there can be some songs that you're kind of not really sure. And how is the theology? So in the Lutheran faith, we believe that grace is a free gift. There's nothing we can do to earn it. God has given us the salvation. And so that's just kind of one example of we wouldn't want to sing a song necessarily that talks about how hard I'm working to get into heaven.

Not that that's even a song that I can think of, but just as an example- are we worshiping God with this music? Not promoting works righteousness. It's okay to have testimonial songs as well. That was another point in this article, that we talk about that God does good things in our lives and on earth.

But again, we're wanting to honor God with that. Does that kind of make sense, Joanne?

Joanne: Yeah, it does. And there are some songs that allude to God's love and grace, but don't come out and say it. And I'm thinking of Full Force Gale, which Van Morrison I think wrote it.

He went on to write Christian music. I mean, there are words in there- I'll find my sanctuary in the Lord, but this is more of a broad message about the love of God. And that way I can see why people might not think it's appropriate or it doesn't match the lesson.

But I think a lot of the contemporary music will fit with almost any lesson.

Barbara: Do you have any favorite songs that you want to mention, even if we don't play them?

Joanne: one of my favorite songs is Revival. I think that's another Robin Mark song, because it tells a story and then at the end, this is a complaint from some people, it's the same lyrics over and over and over and over and over again.

Barbara: yeah, revival.

Joanne: 12 times. Imagine that, but, but it also tells a story from the preacher preaching when the well is dry. I mean, that's a story about doubt. You know, and everybody has doubt- pastors have doubts, you know? It just part of our makeup, but this tells this whole story and then we'll revival part of it that goes on and on, I think allows people to let the rest of it sink in.

You're not thinking about the music you're singing along, because it's the same melody and the same words for 12 times, but it can gives people that breathing room stop and say, yeah, okay. This whole thing makes sense in my life. All these words make sense to me.

Barbara: Yeah, I'm going to just read a couple of words. I still have my choir ring binder. It's traveled across the ocean twice and I did have to cull a few, some of my music, but this one stayed in. It says every dreamer dreaming in their dead-end job. Every driver driving through the rush hour mob. I remembered the train in the chorus. I didn't remember all the words to the chorus. But it says I can feel the brooding of your spirit, lay your burdens down, lay your burdens down. And to me, those lyrics are precious.

Joanne: They are. And for me, that would fit in any service. Take your burdens to God.

Barbara: I know that there's hymns that talk about real life problems. Even if you know the story behind say It Is Well With My Soul, the devastation experienced in the family of the person who wrote those lyrics, but not everybody knows that. So then you just hear the, “it is well with my soul” part. And this particular song also says: to the widow, walking through the veil of tears, and then kind of goes back to the chorus where you're burned down.

So it's not promising a quick fix. But just inviting to me “lay your burdens down.” That's an instruction and I'm like, no, no, no. I'll just hold onto my burdens. I can fix this. Of course, I can't. Really? Who am I kidding?

Joanne: It Is Well With My Soul is one of my more favorite hymns, but I wrote music for my son's wedding. So the introduction has a little tiny bit of a riff from It Is Well With My Soul. And that's a beautiful hymn.

Barbara: Another of my favorites is Days of Elijah. So if you've never heard that one before I'd encourage you to look that one up, too.

I do have two final questions- do you have any thoughts on whose voice might be missing from this conversation and, or is there an elephant in the room when we're talking about contemporary church music in all its diversity?

Joanne: I think the elephant in the room is some people feel as though the contemporary service isn’t Lutheran enough, it isn't Episcopalian enough, it isn't Catholic enough. But for me, this brings people in to hear the word of God, whether you're Lutheran, Episcopalian Catholic. If you're coming in to hear the word of God, then the music is is secondary. But if you're bringing people in because it's a contemporary service, that's really what's important so they can hear the message and they can feel God's love and feel the love of the congregation.

Barbara: I was brought up to focus on time, and most of my church services lasted an hour, and every once in a while it was an hour and five minutes. I've learned since moving away, just living overseas with the military chapels, some of the services are approaching two hours, but you're so swept up in what's happening that you kinda know it's two hours, but you're not looking at your watch. There's some really powerful music, powerful preaching. And around here, a lot of church services are actually less than an hour and I'm thinking, wait a minute, sit down. We're not done yet. So I think part of the question, when you say, is it Lutheran enough? Is that there's expectations about we have this experience of, okay, first we do this, then we do this. Then we do this and we collect the offering and we say the Lord's prayer and we have communion. And I became less rigid in my expectations. I don't mind a little bit longer now, but I don't know if that kind of comes into play with some folks too.

Joanne: you're right. People have expectations. I've got things to do. I got to get out of here.

Barbara: And then that makes a difference when you're looking at, okay, are we going to do every single thing in the hymnal that says, this is how we do a Lutheran service or any other denomination for that matter?

So is there room for if you're reading prayers then you know how long it's going to take- if someone's praying extemporaneously, then I'm fine if it takes longer, I don't have any problem with that, but we want to honor both tradition as well as innovation.

Any other thoughts on this topic for us today? Joanne?

Joanne: I think this is an interesting thing to look at the different ways that people worship and that neither one is right or wrong. They're just different and people worship in different ways and God speaks to them in different ways. God speaks to people without people being in church or ever having set foot in a church.

Barbara: Yes. And sometimes it's in words and sometimes there's no words there either.

Joanne: Right.

Barbara: Do you feel like doing another 20 or 30 seconds of music to ease us back into the real world?

Joanne: Sure.

Barbara: Thank you very much.

Joanne: You are welcome. Thank you.

Resources:

Psalm 150

A Mighty Fortress is our God https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9uGNb8Zfic

Come Thou Fount, Come Thou King https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhd5dUVxOJ8

Fruit Song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCtt8sEiEJg&fbclid=IwAR0bERoyedt4d0jsRt9Vnxjz4X6smAWq8fyMsfLvFcuuYGQTJyeBAvI9WhM

Were You There When They Crucified my Lord? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKiNUElEOE