Hi everyone. welcome to 40 Minutes of Faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.
Barbara: today's guest is Paula Jenkins. Our discussion will focus on the book of Ruth. I met Paula when she taught a class about how to start a podcast. Paula was baptized Lutheran at age seven. Her dad is Episcopal. Her mom was raised Mormon latter day saints.
She has lived in five different States, mostly California, and lives in the San Francisco Bay area. Paula holds a master of arts in religion from Yale divinity school. She's been a project manager for 20 years now doing podcast production and consulting. She has a life coaching certificate and still takes clients.
She's also worked as a retreat leader. Paula is living her dream now, and she'd love to keep working with heart centered disruptor businesses. Paula I'm intrigued. What is a heart centered disruptor business?
Paula: I like to think of the people that I work with, which is mostly women and they're doing something, maybe that's not right uncommon in the world, but they're doing it in a way that is kind of disrupting the status quo.
So one of my Clients is a doctor, and she's really putting information about fertility treatments out there for women to make it accessible and to empower them. And another client is a life coach, but she's also an activist and an anarchist. So it's like this sense of how do we shake things up, but stay true to what we know to be in our hearts. And how do we bring that into the world?
Barbara: That's fabulous. I'm going to try and use that phrase again. Today's reading is somewhat famous, but perhaps for the wrong reason, we'll take a look together. The book of Ruth is in the old Testament towards the beginning of your Bible, between judges and Samuel.
I'm going to read chapter one verses 16 and 17 from the King James version. “And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the Lord do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me. And there will I be buried the Lord do so to me and more also if ought, but death part, thee and me.”
Paula, I was pleasantly surprised when you said that Ruth is your favorite book in the Bible. What makes this book so special to you?
Paula: Well, it's a tiny book. It's mostly about a single family. It highlights the stories of women. And I feel like it's so nuanced that it packs a really mighty punch. And it's kind of in a strange place, meaning, like you said, it's right after judge, and it's hard for anyone to tell if this happened before or after exile, but it gives us this really fascinating view into how families work.
And it's a neat, really beautiful marrying, if you will, of family life. The laws of the land, but also this very heart centered approach about how people embody the laws and the commandments, but how they can play out in real situations.
Barbara: I was amazed as I did some research about the book of Ruth for this episode to see that one of the main characters Naomi was from Bethlehem. I recalled vaguely that Ruth was one of Jesus's ancestors, but I forgot about the Bethlehem connection.
We have the chance to learn about some tradition during biblical times from this story, Paula, would you summarize Naomi and Ruth's early years for us?
Paula: Naomi, best we can tell it is from Bethlehem and she's already an Israelite. So that means she's got a working knowledge would be the assumption of the commandments. She is familiar with the Hebrew Bible or the old Testament, same book, a different name. And a husband and she has two sons. They traveled to Moab, which is where Ruth is from. And both sons choose a wife and marry, Ruth is a Moabite woman. So she is probably not familiar with the laws of the Hebrew Bible or the old Testament.
And so she is finding herself in a space where she's marrying and she's becoming part of a different culture and part of a brand new family. Unfortunately both Naomi's husband and then Ruth's husband and the other brother all pass away. So that the three men in the story all die very early.
And it leaves the three women in a very interesting position. The law, as far as Naomi is concerned, says that she being kind of the lead of the family without a man present, can release the women. And so she tells Ruth and the sister-in-law, God be with you, you can go back to your own families.
And this is where it gets interesting because Ruth says what you just read, basically, she wants to stay. She loves Naomi and she even, said to her daughters in law, go back to each of you to your mother's house. May the Lord deal highly with you as you have dealt with the dead and with me.
So we see Naomi is a caring woman. She's a lovely woman. She wants what's best for each of these daughters in law. And Ruth repays in kindness. That gives me goosebumps every time.
Barbara: My study Bible points out that after returning from the exile in Babylon, people were suspicious of foreign women. So because Naomi and her husband traveled to Moab during the famine, and Naomi returned with Ruth to Bethlehem years later, Ruth was considered a foreigner in Naomi's hometown. Two books in the old Testament instruct against mixed marriages- in Ezra chapters nine and 10. And in Nehemiah chapter 13. Simultaneously to that faith practice, when someone's husband died, the husband's brother was supposed to marry the widow in order to preserve the family inheritance.
If there was no brother, as in this case, then a close male relative could marry you. The regular listeners we'll know that I have never read from the King James version before, although I treasure some of the verses in it. But my sense is that this verses frequently read from the King James version.
Here are the verses from the message. But Ruth said, don't forced me to leave. You don't make me go home. Where you go, I go and where you live, I'll live. Your people are my people. Your God is my God where you die. I'll die. And that's, I'll be buried. So help me, God, not even death itself is going to come between us.
Paula. When is our passage in Ruth most often misquoted? And who is the statement really for?
Paula: we often hear this passage read during a wedding ceremony, which is lovely and appropriate. it's deeply meaningful because it is this really beautiful, how pouring from someone about how they love the other person at seemingly a soul level.
Right. So I think other places in the old Testament, we hear about heart, soul, a nefesh, which is a Hebrew word, but I believe it means the marrying of all three of the things. So heart, body, soul, like it's the whole thing. And so for someone to cry out to the other person, like.
Where are you go, I will go where you logged. I will lodge. This is huge because that's a woman saying I'm gonna, I'm gonna step back from everything that my culture and my place of origin and my family of origin is. And I'm going to go with you and I want to, and will you please let me. And I think it's a beautiful thing for people who are married, because they're also, usually we hope marrying at that kind of, that nefesh level of things, but it's really interesting that it doesn't have, or maybe it's subtly does have roots in a place of, of law and marriage.
But that's not really what it's about. I read it more is like kind of this lovely friendship between two women or this deep bond between two women that Ruth is acknowledging in a meaningful way. And, and stepping up to say to Naomi, you've been. A beautiful human for me to be around and what you've shown me through your culture and your laws and your beliefs is something that I want to keep being a part of.
So I want to go where you go. And even to the point where, when we die, I want to be near you, which is kind of, you know, it brings a tear to your eye almost when you think of people and relationships and what they mean to, you know, what people mean to each other.
Barbara: It's really sweet, because like you said, hopefully people have that since in their marriage.
Some people may have that with their in-laws and I have a very sweet and kind mother-in-law and I also though know that with biblical themes, many passages are or can be about our relationship with God. So I wonder if we can take a look at this passage. From Naomi and Ruth point of view, but think about how are our relationship with God possibly affected by this passage?
Do you have any thoughts for us on that?
Paula: Yeah, I sure do. I think the really interesting thing about it is the marriage at several levels. also keeping in mind that Ruth came from a place where they wouldn't have likely had a familiarity with the Hebrew Bible or the 10 commandments.
she didn't know of the teachings. And I feel like one of the things we see with Moses, for sure. We see it with some other really prominent figures in the old Testament, but that God is trying to reach out to us in whatever way God knows we're gonna.
Respond to. So whether that's a burning Bush and we notice it and we're like, what's going on here? Or it's maybe something a little more subtle, but I feel like God keeps reaching out to the people in the old Testament and the us now and saying, Hey, I see you. I know you. And I want to have a relationship with you.
I don't want you to just follow the laws or the rules that I'm laying down. Sure. I'll tell you what it means to be a good, you know, air quotes, good person, and to be in relationship and to follow the, commandments and the commitment. But I want to see it, like, I want to feel this relationship with you.
And so I feel like Ruth's saying this to Naomi is also this really interesting, nuanced and layered way of saying to the reader, this is what a relationship, a loving relationship with someone looks like, yes, you get that. We're going to all follow kind of the same rules as a society, but you also get this heart level thing that comes out.
And that's what I feel like is. modeling the way the God hopes. We will react to God.
Barbara: Imagine if we said to God, God don't force me to leave you. God, don't make me go home. Where you go. I go, that just blows my mind.
Paula: Yeah. Goosebumps.
Barbara: Yeah. Wow. That's really great. Another important biblical concept is gleaning in this comes a little bit later in the book of Ruth.
And what this means is that God instructed people to leave extra grain at the edges of the field for the poor and aliens. According to the book of Leviticus, chapter 19, verses nine and 10. And chapter 23, verse 22 in the book of Deuteronomy 24 21, the green was to be left for the alien orphan and widow.
This was part of the legal welfare system, thousands of years ago. This is why Ruth was gathering green in fields. And then up on the land owned by a man named Boaz, Paula, what are ways that wealthy business and community leaders can show compassion in our
Paula: times? it dances in that space of what are the laws and what's right.
and by that, I mean the traditional sense of righteousness as we see from a loving God, like how do you put yourself in that space of doing what's right. And being a kind human? I feel like, yes, you're totally right. That there's this example here of. Part of what we do each day should be considering those people who may not have what we have, or may not have the privilege that we have acknowledged that we do have that, that either that's, you know, if it's a business that is able to make money right now during a pandemic too.
Pay back in some way or stand up for, the underserved in some way. And to make sure that even if one can't do that or they cannot afford to do that, that they are looking out for the underserved. And that might be by law. Interesting. Again, we're dancing in this space of law and what's right. but that we all have, I'm struggling with the word, cause it's not obligation.
It's bigger than an obligation, but that part of what we do as a society needs to take into consideration those who are considered air quotes, the other, which is something also that comes up in the Bible a lot. But how do we bring them into the fold? How do we make it so they can survive? And also how do we show them a kindness that's way beyond just providing food, but saying, you know what?
You're going to be safe. You're going to be okay. how can I mirror God's message that I know to be true with you, who may not feel like it's so true right now?
Barbara: And I'd like to amend that question. The Bible passage talks about a wealthy landowner who shared the extra gleaning, according to the biblical commandment, but for those of us who don't happen to be wealthy business owners or land owners or community leaders or something like that. Do you have any thoughts on how just ordinary people can show a welcome to these specific people that are listed in the Bible reference back to these texts, the poor aliens, the widow, and the orphan, not aliens from Mars aliens from other places.
Paula: it's a similar thing. You know, whether you're a business or someone who is maybe not in a space of having a lot by today's standards. I think it models to us that part of our daily work. should include doing things for others in a place that comes from kindness. And that comes from a place that it's baked into what we do, not out of a sense of obligation, but this is how we operate because we are people who have faith and know what it means to be taken care of.
But there's also a piece here because when Ruth is out there gleaning, she's also starting to catch the eye and get it noticed by other people in the community. and so I think because there's also this through line throughout the Bible that, when people do things that are right and are coming from a heart centered place and that they're taking care of others often that they get noticed.
And are then rewarded in some ways. Yeah. And I get really get a little nervous about using words like reward or whatever, because it always sounds a little bit too transactional for my tastes. We see that by putting out the good in the world. Good things come back to us.
Barbara: In pretty much every episode, I talk about the Lutheran concept of justification and sanctification. So our redemption is a free gift and we returned into the world out of love for God not to earn points or to try to earn our salvation because we can never keep the law anyway.
Paula: I think Ruth is showing us and interestingly that her roots are not of being an Israelite so that she is showing kindness as somebody who's new to the community and that she is trying to live out. The things that this community does is almost a point that we can take inspiration from, because it means that. Anyone is welcome into the community of God. And anyone is welcome to embrace these rules and laws or thoughts and ideas, and that we all, all of us benefit when we start to embrace things that are good for other people.
Barbara: here is a really lovely example of someone who is from another place. On the one hand, there was a commandment to not inter marry, but then at the same time, Ruth ultimately becomes an ancestor of Jesus. So there is that welcome and that redemption and I don't want to alienate listeners by having this podcast turned into a political hammer, as much as that is tempting to me yet, our Bible readings clearly talk about both suspicion of foreigners, as well as commanding people to take care of the vulnerable, which includes aliens, widows, and orphans.
Paula, what are your thoughts on balancing care for each other, with financial stewardship of our resources?
Paula: I think that's a really hard one to have, especially for people who are training to be in the ministry, because, traditionally people who are of faith and their livelihood is around faith are not necessarily some of the higher wage earners in the world.
Taking care of each other from a financial perspective should be built into whatever we do at whatever level we can do it. But I also think that it's about sharing the gifts that we have in a way that's meaningful. And so you sharing the message and offering people a way to study Bible and learn more about their faith on a podcast is a sharing of a gift, and it's inviting other people in a way that. Naomi invited Ruth in. So I think that's a modeling of something that's really nice and lovely and important. but I also think it goes then from the financial perspective, goes to a global way of if we. Are giving what we can.
We also owe it to ourselves to get involved and understand maybe what companies that we invest in are doing. Are they modeling some of this for other people? So I think whether or not we have a lot of financial means ourselves, we can give what we can, we can make sure we're also using our gifts in a smart way.
And we can also be really invested in the way that we are participating in the world to make sure that the finances, wherever they're coming from are going to people that could use help or that are of need. I like what
Barbara: you said that if we can build it into what we're already doing, then that makes sense and it could bear fruit. Like I know some people are in a position to be able to give away face masks for free, and some people are selling them and that's absolutely fine because sometimes financial resources are tight for people. But if sewing is something that you know how to do, when you're able to give something away, then that's a generous way of using your gifts where you don't necessarily have to be throwing a lot of cash into a situation.
Paula: that's really important. I generally do look for places where I can either volunteer my time, teaching podcasting or something like there are ways that you could equate whatever you can do to, either giving away masks or giving away your time or whatever and that could impact somebody financially down the road in a way you may not ever understand as well.
Barbara: So just because we don't have a field where we can leave gleanings for other people to gather, we might have a couch or a guest bed, or et cetera, give somebody a ride.
Paula: I think that's a nice way of looking at gleanings that they don't have to be a specific monetary giving, but they could be whatever our gifts or our fruit, the fruit of our labor is
Barbara: Paula, you've connected in your mind between our story of Naomi and Ruth and the new Testament, Matthew 27 verse 46 and share with us your thoughts on feeling forsaken and redeemed.
Paula: it's one of the things that Jesus calls out from the cross, which is father, father, why have you forsaken me? And that's a very strange favorite passage, but I feel like. there's something about the way that Jesus is calling out to his father at that point, right before he's about to die. And he had known, all along what his fate would be why he was here, or at least for quite a while had known it.
I love that passage because I think it is the consolidation of everything that he was here to do, which is he saw in one brief, second, all of the good, all of the bad and was like, this is painful. And yet here I am. And I agreed to do it, and the only person that can save me is my own father.
And so I think there is something about, The relationship there and knowing that we all have a role to play in things and knowing that, the relationship itself is what's important. So when we look at Naomi and Ruth, their relationship is what eventually leads them to a much better place.
they left Moab, they went back to Israel and they both were then set right again. whether people in today's society, like the idea of Ruth goes on to marry, Boaz And then she is reinstated as somebody, that's the reward, whether we like that or not.
That's how things worked back then, but we see that then Jesus is reinstate it in a place or maybe it was always there, I guess, but that we see that the redemption and, the salvation for someone comes because of the relationship that they have with other people. And. In lots of ways.
I think we see that, yeah, we're given rules and we're given the right and wrong way. Like it's laid out plainly, but when it comes down to things, the heart of all of it is love. And the heart of all of it is how do we relate to other people? And what do we do with the rules that we're given?
Ruth chose- She could've gone back, her sister in law went back to her mother and her family and we don't know what her fate was, but what we do know is that somebody that chose to follow the rules as they've been laid out and then chose to choose love, then. the reward that we see is, that she is the grandmother of David and it puts her in the maternal line of Jesus.
And so that's impressive, like that says something like this is a person that we want to seek out and see as an example of a marriage in many ways and a marriage of the law and the love, that she is an example of.
Barbara: So it's possible that Naomi and Ruth felt forsaken. It doesn't specifically say that, but you might, it sounds like there was a lot of death and uncertainty and things like that. it appears that they were redeemed in more ways than one, but just in kind of even an obvious way of returning to a place and having a life beyond that and a good life beyond that. And then some of us may feel forsaken at times. And some of us may feel like redemption is a long time in coming.
It's a marathon, not a sprint. And I don't say that to sound trite -sometimes the suffering or feeling forsaken feels eternal. Is there anything about the book of Ruth or this connection with Matthew in the new Testament that you'd like to explore a little more?
Paula: I know Naomi and Ruth both use the word bitter. right before Ruth says to Naomi, she wants to stay with her. So I think you are correct in saying that they did feel. at least that then be beaten down in some way by what's happened in their lives.
And I think that's an interesting example. Well, for all of us, even right now, we can see that maybe we do feel a little bitter. Maybe we do feel a little forsaken by. The events of the world buyer leadership of our country, whatever it is, again, not to lean into the political too much, but I think there is a message here of when you look at the laws and the rules that maybe we don't even feel that much a part of sometimes, but we could go back to the Bible and see what they are.
And then we leave the heart centerdness of it, or the, I love of it, that it puts us in a place that is what makes God happy? Like that's what God is asking us to join God in is that relationship and that space of holding room for the rules and for the heart part of it, and I think that's part of why I love Ruth so much.
Barbara: And love of each other as well, which is exemplified in the story. In several different ways. I feel like we've really talked a lot about love. And on the flip side of that, I'm wondering where in the book of Ruth is there fear?
Paula: I think there's the implied fear of, we don't know what might happen to us. And Naomi for sure is in a foreign land to herself. so she chooses to go back home. Now we don't really know what motivates that some of it could be. I don't know what I would do with myself out here in foreign lands.
And I would interpret that like, I don't know how I would make a living or I don't know anybody really here, so it's time to go home. And so I don't know if there's really that fears so much, I feel like they really embrace the love side of it, which I feel like are opposite motivators in any story.
Barbara: And it's not always fair to place our own imaginings into someone else's life, but that makes sense. I'm somewhere where I am new to. So how am I going to make this happen? Or then I'm going to go somewhere. Ruth was going somewhere where she didn't know anybody, but you're right.
That the love seemed to outweigh that. And there may have been fear of foreigners in Bethlehem. I got that impression from the commentary
Paula: the other is always a topic in the Bible too. And you're right. That maybe the people that they didn't know.
We're somewhat frightening to them, but I think there's also that space to be held of, Ruth would have been one of the people that they didn't know, and that was from a different tribe. And that was a foreigner when they first met her. So I think there's also that resolution in the story of once we get to know someone it's very hard to see them as another or as frightening.
and when we can show them love that often changes our hearts and it changes everything about them for us.
Barbara: One of my professors always asks whose voice is missing and sometimes I don't really notice whose voice is missing.
Paula: Well, I think Ruth's extended. Family's voice is missing. We don't know how her parents may have felt about her marrying. Presumably to them, a foreigner, right. Just kind of a fascinating thing. and we don't hear that much of the other sister-in-law and maybe that's a very similar story.
Why would you go back to whatever it was that you knew as opposed to this? And we maybe don't know so much about the husbands and the father. but I think that's in a way refreshing because oftentimes in the Bible and in many narratives, we hear all about the male perspective. And so I think it's really interesting that this author and the people that chose to keep the book in the Bible itself have left room for there to be more of the women's story.
Barbara: those women's voices may more often be missing from the story than anyone else's in other passages.
I also like to ask about the elephant in the room. Is there something that is on your mind about some kind of an unspoken sentiment?
Paula: there might be a little bit around the women's roles. We understand that there's rules and law and commandments, but if the tradition was that men are in the place of power is a women. Really want to go find another man. Do they really believe that by getting married, that, that reinstates them? And maybe that's a voice that's not being shared, but it might also be the elephant in the room that the only way that these women were being reinstated and being shown reward was by means of being involved with or married to a man, which there's something strange going on there for me. And. It just feels like it's worth calling out.
Barbara: there's also the new Testament question posed to Jesus about if a husband dies and the woman marries the brother and that brother dies and the widow marries the next brother and there were seven brothers. And then in heaven, who is she married to? And Jesus is like, that is really not point at all.
Please. Correct me if I'm wrong, Paula. That's my super short summary. That's what I recall him saying about that. I'd rather. In this day and age, be able to God forbid, should that ever happen, have a choice and not be like, okay, here's brother number one. And next in line is brother number two, right?
According to the laws of the, of the culture at the time,
Paula: it is interesting that Jesus said that's not even the point. I often wonder has Jesus entered the scene. Within enlightened. Well, always he has, but with an enlightened way of thinking, which is, Hey, you guys, you were so preoccupied by all those rules, like what's going on?
Like, you're being so cut and dry with all of this. Maybe that is the elephant in the room of like, yeah, it's a great story. And yes, she did the right thing and she followed her heart. But maybe even if we ask Jesus, would he apply what he does, what you referenced to this scenario as well?
I wonder.
Barbara: And I fervently hope that those customs were in place to care for vulnerable people. So hypothetically, the culture was, what else is this woman going to do? Because that was one of the reasons that I learned for speaking against divorce is what is an unmarried woman going to do to put food on the table?
Right. So I just hope that the initial actual intention was care. That she wouldn't be abandoned in the street begging or worse. So, but still from our point of view that it seems kind of strange to me. Yeah. Well, I just have to do this because I don't have any other choice if I'm going to go along with the
Paula: custom.
Yeah. And I think that follows for most of what Ruth did too, with Naomi. She wants to be with her because of a sense of care and. And concern almost and, and appreciation. So, yeah, I think that works.
Barbara: Sounds like she was one of the early feminists in the Bible and many of the women leaders may have been, I never looked at it from that perspective before.
I'm wondering if I should go learn more about Miriam and we know about some of the myriad. Go ahead, Paula.
Paula: Oh, Miriam's a powerhouse. Well just briefly, when you look at it, the song of Miriam right around the time of the Exodus, I mean, that's the oldest. Piece of literature in the Bible is from a woman's voice.
Barbara: Say a little more about Miriam.
Paula: Miriam is Moses's sister and the song that she sings is around the safe passage of the people and she is a support to Moses for quite some time.
So I think there's an interesting thing there. I mean, Moses is one of my favorites too, like without the support of his sister and his brother, Aaron, you don't have the leader that he becomes. And he's even super reluctant to begin with, to rise into the position that he becomes.
But I think that part of it, it is because he has strong characters, one of them being his sister.
Barbara: there's actually a series of books that I've read and done as Bible studies called bad girls of the Bible by Liz Curtis Higgs. There were bad boys of the Bible too, but this particular study was about women that God can use any of our histories for any good. So, maybe I feel ashamed about something from my past, but that doesn't mean that God can't love me, that I'm unlovable that I can't be forgiven.
I'm not saying that about either of the two women that we just happened to have been talking about right now, but just at the study was really nice to talk about. We don't have to be perfect to serve God and each other.
Paula: Yeah.
Barbara: thank you so much for your time. I appreciate your wisdom and your insight, and we'll get working on another episode about Miriam and a whole bunch of other women.
Paula: Thanks for having me.
Resources:
Ruth 1:16-17
“Bad Girls of the Bible” by Liz Curtis Higgs
Paula of www.jumpstartyourjoy.com