Barbara: Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 Minutes of Faith. Today's topic is understanding different Bible translations, and our guest is Dr. May Persaud. I met May at Wartburg seminary in Iowa, where she has served as an instructor in biblical languages for more than 30 years. I struggle with addressing professors by their first names. This is not how I was brought up and it's the opposite of military culture, but it is the Wartburg way.
May is a pastor's kid from New Jersey and Kansas. During her postgraduate studies in Scotland, May met her husband, who's from Guyana, where they later lived and taught in the Lutheran church.
To be honest with you May, I cannot remember which translation of the Bible I heard as a kid, but it was probably not the King James version. I would have remembered if I heard a lot of Thees and Thous. May, when I'm in a group Bible study, our different Bibles don't have the exact same words. Can you help us understand why?
May: That's a great question, Barbara. I'm always being asked by students and also by members of Bible studies. Why is it that my Bible doesn't agree with what you're reading?
The old Testament, the Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew and the new Testament in Greek and for us English readers, or for anyone throughout the world, the old Testament, the new Testament, they have to be translated into the language of the reader.
And these translations are called versions. So when we get together in a Bible study, odds are that people are going to bring some sort of version and Barbara, do you know how many English versions there are?
Barbara: I have absolutely no idea. I have a chart that I wanted to tell people about that has at least 10 different ones, but I bet it's more.
May: Yes, there are more than 450 English translation version, I always like to tell people what the current world situation is in terms of translations. I like to keep watch on the Wycliffe translators.
You can go to the internet and check them out. The Wycliffe translators, they go back to a Wycliffe in Britain who was the first one in 1415 to translate from the Latin Bible into English. And so the Wycliffe translators are named after him. He was condemned for his work because there was a fear that he would bring too many interpretations into the common language and people would just go crazy knowing too much.
The Wycliffe translators, as of last fall, they stated on their website cite that the Bible has been translated into 698 languages. And the new Testament itself has been translated into an additional 1,548 languages. And then portions of the Bible just portions have been translated into 1,138, but the startling word is that there are still 3,969 languages that do not have a Bible translation.
Even though many of those languages are very similar to languages that have been translated. And so some of those readers can read a language that's close to their own, but if you think of the English Versions as being 450, and that there are still 3,969 languages that do not have a Bible, you can tell that English readers are exceptionally fortunate.
Barbara: That really boggles my mind. I'm so glad you brought that to light. Cause it sounds like their work is ongoing. And just to let folks know, it's spelled www.WYCLIFFe.org And that information will also be on the podcast website, which is www.40minutesoffaith.com
May: I keep watch on this because I think it's very humbling as an English reader and it helps people in churches to know what is at stake worldwide. Translation and versions are a part of what it means to be in mission. And what it means is the church globally to be faithful. So this is a very important topic.
Another issue then when we start talking about our English versions and getting back to the original question, why does my Bible say something different than yours? because there are 450 translations. That means that as Christians, we need to know something about those different translations.
Lots of times people receive a Bible from Sunday school or they just go and they pick one up. But I think that more and more, we also need to understand what these versions do and become familiar with them in order to be wiser about our reading the Bible. Let me just say from the get go that all of translation work is an activity in faithfulness.
So I'm not a person who says, well, you should read this version and you shouldn't read that and I don't like to feel that some versions are inferior and some are superior, but the versions do different things. And you have to kind of know what it is that you need the version for in order to know what type of version you need to be reading.
Does that make sense, Barbara?
Barbara: It really does. And I know that we're going to be giving some examples coming up in a moment. I wanted to share a chart. Of course we can't share it visually in a podcast, but I can let you know where I got it. I don't know the original source. It's called a translation continuum.
That if you want to take a look at it, if you're a visual learner, like I am, it's currently on a website called www.olivetree.com and you can search for Bible translation comparison. And again, I'll put that on the link for the podcast as well. That shows a word for word at one end and a thought for thought at the other end.
And I know that you'll help us to understand that in a little bit more detail. So this is not meant to be confusing, but to just invite a realization that there are different scholars of Hebrew and Greek.
In case this is a little bit new to you, NIV stands for new international version and the RSV stands for revised standard version. And then the “N” is new.
I wanted to invite listeners- you can have a pile of different Bibles if that would be convenient and possible for you. But I also use a website called www.Biblegateway.com . So that's another great way to look up different versions. And there's also different phone apps that you can have as well.
May: when you look at a translation, which is a version, it's wise to know who did it? Is it a committee or is it an individual and what was it done for? And there is a book. called choosing a Bible by Steven Sheeley and Robert Nash.
This gives the background of all sorts of versions and not only versions, but versions that have been made into study Bibles- you can get things like Men's devotional Bible, life recovery Bible, women's devotional Bible, these different types of study Bibles.
And so it goes into the different versions who did them and what their mandates were, but it also talks about study Bibles and the different kinds of specialty Bibles that I get a lot of questions about.
Barbara: Thanks. That's terrific. Cause we have the source doc as it is. And then there might be a different emphasis that might help folks. There's teen Bibles out there. There's children's Bibles that certainly wouldn't have every single verse. So that's a great resource. Thank you.
May: Great. And then approaches to translation- this can be a little technical, but on the other hand, the chart that you said that you were, making available talks about the spectrum of approaches to translation.
There are basically three different approaches to translation. There's the verbal approach where the translators strive to make the English be exactly following the ancient Greek or the ancient Hebrew. So it's kind of a word for word translation- now, most versions are not strictly verbal. So the verbal would be on one end of the spectrum.
And then in the middle is an approach to translation called dynamic. This seeks to understand what's going on and to reproduce the ancient thoughts and ideas in modern equivalency. So examples of this would be the NRSV, the RSV, the NIV. And the Jerusalem Bible, which was mandated by the Catholic church. So they're trying to stay with the words. And yet they're trying to not be just tied word for word. They're a little looser. It's dynamic. And then the final kind of translation approach is called paraphrase where the translators read the ancient texts. They think about what is going on? How can we talk about it?
And then in their own language they just kind of make a paraphrase and examples of this would be the living Bible and the message. And there are many other examples too. Usually when you're in a school setting, the school settings like to see a dynamic or a verbal. Most schools do not like to use living Bible or message because they're paraphrased. And you can't see what the Hebrew or the Greek behind the text is. Those paraphrases are really good for devotional work and personal reading and things in that area.
If you're in a study where you really want to get it, the language paraphrases are not the best, but paraphrases are very helpful for seeing what the general ideas are. So I like to have paraphrases in a Bible study. I'd like to have a mix of all of these myself. do you have any thoughts about that, Barbara?
Barbara: I grew up with a fairly intellectualized concept of church and relationship with God, which was fine. It worked for my personality and my family of origin. And when I first read some paraphrased versions, I felt that it was more heart than head. And for me, that was a good thing. I needed that, but I also respect that it might be helpful to have a balance.
And that's a little bit what I heard from you, that you don't have to read a bunch of different versions, but that there's some academic literal word for word translations from the original Hebrew and Greek. And then the paraphrases might be a little bit looser or maybe there's a better word for that, but that there's a place for different understandings.
May: Very definitely. And I'm always very hesitant to make a distinction between heart and head. People tend to do that. I always say to my students in classes where we're translating, I like to see all of them, these versions be accessible because at the end of the day, they are all activities of the faithfulness of the church. I always love to see how that faithfulness comes out and then to put these versions together side by side, to think about them. I love it in Bible studies when people bring different versions so that we can talk and ponder together because that's what happens when you have different wordings and different versions at hand, people start saying, well, so what's going on here? And I think that that encourages us to delve deeper into the text. Also it encourages us in what it means for us to be faithful as we examine the text. So that's the bottom line of why I love so many versions and we're so blessed in English to have so many.
Barbara: I didn't mean to sound negative earlier when I had said about the Thees and the Thous, there's some verses that will always be on my heart. “Seek ye first the kingdom of God”, and “thy word is a lamp unto my feet”, that I just treasure.
May: there is room for all of them. Oh yes. And most of us know the Lord's prayer in the King James version or something like that. So I'm not taking that negatively. I just think it's important to really, embrace the fullness of our version activity in English, because it's such a blessing. Think of all the languages that have only one version or none at all. It's really humbling.
Barbara: Yes. Do you have a moment made to take a look with us at Matthew 6:25, because I'm someone who worries and if there's some wisdom to be had about worrying or not worrying?
I have it at hand in the NIV, and I know that you'll have some insights into different versions, but Matthew chapter six verse 25 says, “therefore, I tell you do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink or about your body. What you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothes?”
May: Well, the interesting thing about this is that the versions are going to agree on this. They all say, do not worry. And this is where May Persaud when she teaches wishes that she could get a team together and work on an alternative reading of this.
The do not worry, grammatically can be translated either do not worry or stop worrying. Jesus is speaking to those who've come in and he's basically saying to them, I know you're worried, so let's just cut it out- to stop worrying. Therefore, I tell you, stop worrying about your life, what you will eat, or what you will drink or about your body, what you will wear. So he's stopping what is already going on in their hearts and minds.
And then after verse 25, he talks about the birds and he talks about how the father feeds even the birds and the lilies of the Valley. And he goes on: Don't worry about what you'll eat or what you'll drink. He's addressing the fact that he knows that they've been worrying about these things.
And then he says in verse 33, Strive first for the kingdom of God and God's righteousness and all these things will be given to you. So the bottom line is to lean into God. And then in verse 34, what does Jesus say? The text says, so do not worry about tomorrow. All of the translations agree with that, and that is a possible translation, but there's another possible.
And that is so don't even begin to worry. Which implies that the worrying hasn't started. If I were working on this as a new version, I think I would imply Jesus stops the worry of the people who come. He re-centers them in God and God's kingdom and what God does leaning into the fact that God will provide in this COVID time, God will provide.
And then he says, so don't even get started as if it never was. I think that that’s an important way to look at this text. I don't think, do not worry and do not worry for me. I like to hear a little bit more. I like to hear Jesus say, don't even get started or to start by saying stop doing it.
Barbara: That's really comforting. And I suppose this passage is a whole entire other podcast episode because there's so much more to be said about worrying and working and there's all kinds of different judgments out there. And I always want to reference that we are wanting to be careful about we trust God.
And then we also know that our salvation is a free gift. So again, we want to be careful about works righteousness. Like if you do this, then this will happen. There are certainly promises in the Bible. but we also have earthly behaviors that we do out of love to care for our neighbors and knowing that there's sin in the world, but sometimes bad things do happen to good people.
So this is a whole complicated can of worms that I'm just opening. So we'll get to that another time.
May: Indeed. Yes.
Barbara: May, could I read a verse from the Psalms and then you could take us through how it got to that point in what are some different options for that particular Psalm?
May: That sounds good.
Barbara: I did pick one thought for thought, because I know that you'll work in the other direction to help us understand. Psalm one 31 verse two, from the message:
“I've kept my feet on the ground. I've cultivated a quiet heart, like a baby content in its mother's arms. My soul is a baby content.”
May: Psalm one 31 is a Psalm that really shows how different versions have thought about this verse that you just read and how much translation is really at the end of the day, also interpretation. And this sometimes upsets people because they think that a translation is a translation, but you have to know that the translators themselves have interpretive assumptions. when we teach about, translating, we always say to students, all translation is also interpretation.
there are two types of interpretive. backgrounds for a version. There's the interpretive background where a version is the work of a committee.
And then there's the interpretive background where the translation is the work of an individual. So, when you have committees often as translators, we think that versions that are put out by committees are perhaps a little more reliable in that when there's a committee, that means that individuals are talking to each other about the wisdom of this translation versus that translation versus this other translation.
So that there's this input and that kind of stabilizes. The endeavor, as opposed to a single translator who only is working with himself or herself, and therefore they become the sole arbiter of what's going to be on the page. some of the versions that are committee backgrounded are the RSV.
The NRSV the NIV, the King James, that was a committee event in 1611. A version that emanates from a single translator is the living Bible by Ken Taylor and Ken Taylor was actually going from English into English. He wasn't going from Greek or Hebrew into English and he was doing this because he wanted to look at his English Bible and move it from being kind of an inscrutable form at some points and move it into language that his 10 children could understand. And so he had an objective and that was to paraphrase an initial version into his version so that his 10 kids could repeat it.
I love the living Bible, but there are times when I come across it and I'm, thinking, wait a minute, this isn't right, because Ken Taylor was working from English into English, but it's still an activity of a faithful Christian, and I believe that the Holy Spirit works. And so I myself read the living Bible. Does that kind of resonate with you, Barbara?
Barbara: my impression is that in some church bodies or perhaps academic institutions, there's one version that's more in favor and there seems to be some controversy over some of the more contemporary versions.
May: Yes. I'm always very watchful of having a group of people feel that one version is primary. And therefore what you're really saying is it's in a sense superior.
I'm very careful about that. This has to do with what were the versions. What were they intended to do? What audience, where they intended to reach? And when they were authorized, what were the mandates given to them for their work? when you get into an institution and the institution says, we need you to be reading XYZ, version, and it looks like they don't want you to read ABC version.
I think this is part of the issue and that is what were the mandates and what was the target, proposal for a certain translation. So for example, the living Bible, his target was that his 10 children could read the Bible in language. That was more on their level. Okay. And. And I love that.
I think that's wonderful. But if we look at the team translation, that would be the NRSV, the RSV and NIV, the King James, they are authorized, because they have to be funded and they, are given mandates. So for example, the NIV came out in 1978, the new international version. And it was authorized by the evangelical Christian community, largely in the United States. they were given the mandate of bringing the language into a readable place, to sort of update it.
So for example, Isaiah seven, verse 14, that uses the word that is often translated Virgin.
Barbara: Behold, a Virgin shall conceive. Yes. If it's in the Messiah, I got it. It's not Messiah, it'll take me a few more minutes to pull it to mind.
May: Yes. Therefore, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name, Emmanuel.
so they stuck with the idea of Virgin. Okay. Now that word in the Hebrew can be young woman. Not necessarily referring to whether she's a Virgin or not. And so for example, the RSV translates is as a young woman.
the NIV came out in 1978, largely with the idea of producing, a version that evangelical Christians could read in the language of the era in the seventies.
Then another example would be the NRSV has a very interesting mandate. This came out in 1989 and one of their mandates was to update the RSV. The RSV came out in the fifties. Also the NRSV in the eighties had more access to some of the ancient versions and therefore they wanted to bring some of the modern scholarship from the ancient versions into the endeavor to create the NRSV. And finally, and this is the big mandate for the NRSV. The NRSV was given a gender inclusive mandate.
They were to think about the old Testament and new Testament in terms of gender inclusive language. Now, originally they inclusify most of the language, but then later on, before it was finally produced, they went back and they de-inclusifide language for God. So you will read God “He.” An example of inclusive occasion for human language would be in Hebrew Bible.
The Israelites are called the sons of Israel. And they changed that to the children of Israel. Cause they figured there have to be women in the group. Another mandate was to show the reader when there were alternative readings, because there are sometimes many, many readings possible in the Hebrew or the Greek, because they were dealing with greater access to ancient versions. For example, in Genesis one, one.
The traditional reading has been in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Yes. But there are also some other possibilities. And so if you look at the NRSV, they'll say in the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, and then in a footnote, they say, or, and the minute they say, or they're saying, well, there's an alternative reading again, right?
When God began to create. So when God began to create the heavens and the earth, so there are at least three readings there. Now some of those readings have to do with grammatical considerations. Sometimes they have to do with, variant readings in manuscripts, but the NRSV is committed to showing the readership these multiple possibilities, the NIV is not as committed- they're slightly committed, but not as much. So if you have an NIV, I know on Genesis one, they will have that marked, but many times the NIV doesn't show. So the NRSV had a different mandate and that is why often the interest if you're in an institution such as a seminary or a school where you're working in a religion department or a religion class, often they will ask you to use the NRSV because of their access to these ancient manuscripts that is a little wider than other versions.
And also because they show alternative readings. does that kind of help to clarify that for you a little bit, Barbara?
Barbara: Yes. I'm of a divided mind about this because sometimes I just want to read what I read and be done with it, but it's really neat to know that there's different versions out there.
May: I want to go back now to Psalm 131, because this is where we can see the NRSV understanding of some updated thinking on grammatical issues and clarification of the Hebrew that is in the text with reference to other versions that have held to, an earlier understanding of the Hebrew.
Psalm 131 in the RSV, the revised standard version reads. This is verse two: I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a child quieted at its mother's breast. Like a child that is quieted is my soul. Now this implies a child quieted at its mother's breast means a breastfeeding child. And then the Psalmist goes on like a child that is quieted is my soul. So the Hebrew word there does not refer to a breastfeeding child, but rather to a weaned child.
And so the RSV begins in its translation by putting the texts and therefore putting us in our thinking, into a situation where you have a breastfeeding child. And then the Psalmist says, my soul is quieted like a child, right. A child at its mother's breast.
Now the NIV came along. And the NIV saw the issue of the weaned. And so the NIV chapter verse two, Psalm 131 reads, but I have calmed and quieted myself. I am like a weaned child with its mother. Right. So this is not a child suckling at the breast. This is a weaned child. That's independent of the mother may be running around or something like that.
And then the text says like a weaned child. I am content. So the NIV recognized sort of an error in translation with the RSV corrected it, but still says, I am like a weaned child, right? Now the NRSV comes along. It holds to the NIV, these understanding of weaned child, but due to some grammatical understandings, that and conversation and further thinking, this is what the NRSV came to.
So Psalm 131, verse two, I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother.
So that's exactly like the NIV and then the NRSV goes on and this is the claim. My soul is like the weaned child with me, rather than I am like a weaned child.
and this can get a little technical, but the implication is that the me is a mother. And so therefore the Psalmist appears to be a mother. Whereas in the RSV, in the NIV, we don't get that feeling.
And we get the feeling that the Psalmist is probably a male. So the NRSV has actually stepped out and has very good cause for its reading. It is the only version to date that is holding to that reading. It footnotes that reading and says that we still can think in terms of what has been done in the past so that the NIV reading is still valid and therefore the NRSV is giving us an option to read this new reading or the traditional reading saying that they're both valid. That's what the NRSV his mandate was about. Any thoughts on that, Barbara?
Barbara: Well, I was wondering, in Sunday school, sometimes there's a joke that says the answer is always Jesus. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but just that the vast majority of things are pointing towards Jesus or God.
So when you were talking, I was actually wondering, is it talking about our relationship with God and I'm not sure, I could be way off base here. So please don't hesitate if I'm just wandering around lost, not all the Psalms are about our relationship with God, but maybe they are?
May: Yes, they are. And so if you read this Psalm, it begins, Oh Lord, my heart is not lifted up. So there's a person who's speaking. Right? My eyes are not raised too high. I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me, but I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother.
Like my soul is like the weaned child that is with me. So says the mother- now, the very stunning verse is verse three, where the mother turns to Israel and says, Oh, Israel, hope in the Lord. So that this mother is saying to Israel, hope in the Lord. So that this voice becomes one with all of the voices of the Psalter who are actually saying:
Let us hope, hope in the Lord, and that's pointing us towards God. So the Psalter is filled with witnesses who are talking about God's activity in their lives and therefore our lives and who are expressing joy and lament, but also who are exhorting each other, encouraging each other hope in the Lord. Fear not, things like that.
And that's not stressing the human side. That's stressing the response of Israel to the great activity of God in their midst. So in that way, yes, the Psalm is pointing towards God.
Any thoughts?
Barbara: I just looked up really quick while you were talking. This Psalm that you have been reading made me think of first Peter chapter two, verse two: like newborn babies crave pure spiritual milk so that you may grow up in your salvation- and they may not have anything to do with each other, but that's just where my brain went.
So that's kind of where I was thinking we're raised up in our faith tradition. We start off with the basics and then we move on to more complicated things in deeper understandings.
May: yes, indeed.
Barbara: is there anything else about translations or interpretations or about language approaches that you'd like to share with us? May.
May: Oh one could go on forever ever and ever. But I always say to people, if you really want to delve into translation issues and version issues, come and learn Greek in Hebrew, and then we can really talk about it. So this is always a pitch to learn the languages, if you can. But of course, I know that people are like, Oh my.
Barbara: I can imagine- languages come easily to me, but I've never learned a language with a different alphabet. So that's another challenge. And I know there's some really interesting programs out there on how to learn language. You can take an official class, but maybe you can go online or to the library and check out some different resources that way.
May: Right. But I always say this as a tease because you know, if you're a language instructor, as I am, you must stand up for the languages. So I say this as a tease and everybody rolls their eyes and they're like, yes, yes, I'll do that in my next life.
Barbara: Yeah. When I don't have so much else to do, but you never know, folks might have some time on their hands. So that's a great encouragement.
And also knowing that learning a language with a similar alphabet can be a great challenge. Learning a new alphabet is a whole other thing, but Hey, if you've got the time, that would be really terrific.
May: Yes, indeed. Thank you.
Barbara: Of course. Thank you so much, May, I really appreciate it
May: I'm so grateful for this opportunity.
Resources:
Psalm 131:2
Matthew 6:25
Isaiah 7:14
Genesis 1:1
1 Peter 2:2
Book: Choosing a Bible by Sheeley & Nash
May has taught Hebrew and Greek at Wartburg Theological Seminary for 30 years