Clay and potter

Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

It's so good to be back here on the podcast with you. Since the previous episode, I've continued teaching full-time, volunteering at my church and trying to balance in some self-care as well, mostly in the shape of group classes at the Y M C A, like Zumba and weights, plus walking along the beaches of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine.

Our Bible verse today is from Isaiah chapter 64, which is just about in the middle of your Bible. I will be reading from the Inclusive Bible Translation, which is just a little bit different from traditional versions in a good way, I think.

Here is Isaiah Chapter 64 verse eight: “Yet you are our mother and father, Yahweh. We are the clay and you are the potter. We are all the work of your hands.”

Yahweh is another name for God and in this case, God is being addressed as mother and father.

Do you like to play with Play-Doh? I like making shapes with it. These days you can get interesting toy sets for kids like hair salons that you can make Play-Doh hairstyles with. Some people like me, even like how Play-Doh smells. Now you might be wondering, why on earth am I asking about Play-Doh today? Please rest assured that this is not a sponsored episode. I'm not getting anything by mentioning a specific brand. If you're feeling inspired to grab some Play-Doh right now, please go ahead.

The reason I ask is that I wonder if you have ever worked with clay? Is it similar to Play-Doh or different? How easy is it to shape clay? I took a pottery class this past summer and I was surprised at how different clay is from Play-Doh. I like that you can shape Play-Doh easily and get it to do pretty much whatever your talent and gravity allow. I was amazed at how solid a block of clay is and how much strength it took to change the shape of the clay.

Even using water and a pottery wheel, I felt like it was a good workout at the gym trying to turn clay into a bowl or a cup. It sure looks easy when you see someone in the movies shaping clay on a pottery wheel, or even my teacher in the pottery studio. I felt embarrassed at how long it took me to get the hang of it, and even after many tries, I could not create a tall vase, never mind a full size cup.

I was proud of a small bowl and felt kind of worn out by the time I worked it towards being a bowl. I thought it could maybe be a pen holder for my desk, but it's not even really tall enough for that. Maybe for petite pens or pencils, but not full size.

My pottery teacher kept saying, “you show the clay who's boss. The clay has a mind of its own, but you decide how it gets shaped.” That immediately brought to mind a song titled, “Change My Heart, O God” because it includes the phrase, “you are the potter, I am the clay.” Really, it was as if there was a giant light bulb going on over my head in the pottery studio that summer.

I thought to myself, I wonder if God is trying to shape me and I'm resisting just like this clay here that I'm trying to turn into a cup? If you want to have a journal nearby, you could grab yours now because I'm going to be asking a few questions that you might want to journal about.

So that first question: I wonder if God is trying to shape me and am I resisting just like this clay here that I'm trying to turn into a cup? For me, I'd say the answer is yes. I'm probably resisting God trying to shape me, but I don't want to. I want to change that. So I have a few thoughts about that for us.

When I searched for Bible verses about God being the potter, I found nine references in Job, Isaiah Lamentations, Romans, and depending on which translation you use, a couple of other books of the Bible. I'm sure that many theologians over the years have written a great deal about this concept, but today I just wanted to share my experience with you because I wonder how God might be shaping each of us in this season of our lives?

I'm recording this episode on January 2nd, 2023, which is a time of the year when many people come up with New Year's resolutions, and that's absolutely not what this episode is about, but it made me think of a season of maybe thinking about change or considering how my life might be different in this coming year.

So that's why I ask, I wonder how God might be shaping each of us in this season of our lives as well as this season of the year when this episode is first being released. Here are some more questions for consider. How are we cooperating or resisting God's shaping of our lives, both as individuals and as faith communities?

How are we prayerfully listening for God's direction as people, families, and faith communities? Am I too comfortable being a lump of clay, but God's vision is for something different that requires some change in me? Are we comfortable with the way things are now, but God has a new vision for us? Are we willing to change for the better, even if it's uncomfortable during the process?

Let me tell you a bit more about the process involved with turning a piece of raw clay into a finished work and how I connect that with spiritual growth. When I used a piece of fresh clay, it was not required that I knead it like dough for a loaf of bread, but we often reuse clay from leftovers. Why throw it away if you can use it again?

But it required a little bit of additional preparation, and that was to knead it similar maybe to bread dough, but I don't know because I'm not a big bread dough maker. But the point was to get out any little bubbles of air that might be there. So we had to knead it for a few minutes. So that speaks to me about preparation, how my life needs some preparation even before the molding and shaping gets started.

Needless to say, we all liked using fresh clay instead of having to reuse clay, but that wasn't always an option. We need to use the leftovers, and that's absolutely okay, even if it requires a little bit of additional preparation. Even when you place the clay on the wheel, a little bit more preparation is needed before actually starting, no pun intended.

By the way, let me say that even once the clay has been prepared and you place it on the wheel, a little bit more prep work is required to get started before shaping the clay: you have to hold it and center it, and your arms and hands need to be held in a certain position to get the clay to move, to get it to the shape that you have in mind.

So the preparation is not simple, five minutes of kneading or whatever. The preparation work is ongoing as the shaping gets started, and there's not necessarily an easy checklist of, oh, do this for five minutes and do that for a certain period of time or a season in our lives. Sometimes some of the more experienced pottery students said, “Nope, this isn't working.

I am gonna start over.” And they took their clay and they dumped it into the reuse bucket and got some more clay to get started. So the preparation work might need to be ongoing.

So after the shaping, which was a very long process for me. I tried to make a cup three times, and I really wanted a solid size coffee or cocoa cup. Some cultures actually even use bowls, good size bowls for their coffee or their tea. And I know that there's many cultures that use much smaller drinking vessels for maybe espresso or tea. Just much smaller hand size pieces. But I really wanted a substantial cup, sort of a larger size mug, but it never happened, and I'll tell you what did end up happening. Finally, after the third try, I ended up with a small bowl that was really nicely shaped that now has a plant in it. For me it was really a lot of work getting the clay to stay in that round shape and I had to question, do I need this to be perfect?

And I know for a lot of people the answer is probably yes, especially if you're selling it in a store or things like that. But just for myself, the teacher helped me to see I can keep working on this until it's as close to perfect as I can get it, or is it okay if it's not perfect? So one suggestion that she had for me was, it was kind of lopsided a little bit and she said, you know, that looks like it could become a little pitcher maybe for cream or milk if you wanna put that in your coffee or your tea, or it could be a maple syrup pitcher.

And I thought, Hey, yeah, I can do that. That sounds good. So then it was easy to kind of stretch the side of the piece. Until it was a little pitcher, it had a little spout, and it didn't have to be perfectly round, but it was absolutely precious just the way it ended up. Now, do I need to put my maple syrup in a little pitcher before I pour it on my pancakes or french toast? No, of course not, but I thought it was a really nice idea. And I was quite satisfied with the end product. The second imperfect container that ended up becoming a pen holder. Again, I was struggling to get that perfect round shape and it had a few sort of notches or scalloped edges.

So again, the question was for my pen holder, does this have to be absolutely perfect? And I'm actually really glad that I ended up having some kind of smooth scalloped edges and notches cuz I thought, well, if I'm gonna put pens in this, then it's okay if the pens sort of rest within that extra curve. It doesn't have to be perfect and round.

But finally, that third piece ended up being a nice bowl again, not a full size cup, nowhere near a vase, but I was satisfied with it. So the first firing resulted in the clay still being slightly malleable, but definitely drier, not as soggy or floppy as it was in the first place.

And so for the second lesson when I returned, I learned how to create a foot on the piece for stability. And that kind of made me wonder how is my foundation formed, my spiritual foundation, my emotional foundation? Probably nobody is stable a hundred percent of the time, and maybe not every piece of pottery needs to have a foot carved into it.

If you're okay with the bottom being fairly flat and basically stable, that's fine, but I learned how to use a tool to create a foot, not a human foot or an animal foot, but just an extra circle in the bottom of the piece of pottery. It's called a foot, so that it can be stable.

So that's another part of our faith formation, is our foundation. How is that shaped? And it just doesn't come about like magic. It's done intentionally. So maybe with Bible study or with learning from other people, again, being shaped, being formed, it doesn't just appear by itself. So after the foot was created on the piece of pottery, it was fired again.

And I might even be remembering wrong. But this is the way it was in my mind it was fired again. And then at that point we used some sandpaper for the rough edges, because even with the tools, it might still be a little bit sharp, and that reminds me a little bit of pruning that we've definitely talked about on this podcast before.

But the rough edges needed to be sanded off and that wasn't, you know, tons of fun, but that's okay. It was work, it needed to be done. It was actually kind of nice to take the pieces outside and blow the dust into the air. But in terms of spiritual pruning, we don't emerge perfectly formed. We need to learn. And there's so many wonderful lessons from that that, again, I'll let the other episodes speak for themselves, but wanting to just lift that up, that there's always gonna be some fine tuning that needs to happen.

And then once the piece was dipped into the glaze, there's some preparation involved even for that, but I'm not gonna get into all of those details right now, but wanting to just share that once that final firing takes place, I ended up with a couple of pieces that had little drips that weren't really supposed to be there. And some of it's just cosmetic. It looks pretty, but these drips ended up being  worse than rough edges. They also needed to be sanded down. And that made me think too, that, you know what, it's okay if we're not all perfect, it's absolutely fine, but maybe that pruning process even needs to continue. But all of these steps that I've been describing for you, the pottery teacher told us that these pieces are really built for endurance.

You can put 'em in the dishwasher, and we all buy pieces of different stoneware, dishware, pottery that you can put in a microwave, that you can put in an oven that are created from clay. And I haven't worked up the nerve yet to do that with any of the pieces that I created, but that they're created for endurance.

And I have another question for us to consider. What happens when a piece of pottery breaks? What happens when a human being feels like they're broken? And I wanted to share an experience that I had with some of my social work students when we learned together and created some pieces of Kintsugi pottery.

And this is something that you may have heard about before. I had the sad experience of some pieces of pottery breaking during some of the international moves that I've experienced in recent years. If you've never seen a piece, I would really encourage you to look this up online, and I'll have some photos on the website again, of the pieces that we created together.

It's a Japanese art of repairing pottery with molten gold as the lacquer in between the broken pieces, or could be any other precious material. Now I don't have access to that, and for the pieces of pottery that broke that I brought into the classroom, we use frankly, glitter glue and sparkly mod podge.

To repair these pieces of Potter. But the moral of the story, sort of with the art of kintsugi that we talked about in my social work class is that the object was not seen as useless anymore. The pottery shards were not thrown into the trash. So even though I can't use my grandmother's teapot anymore to serve tea, I can still keep it and have that glitter glue glued it together again, sort of like kintsugi to remember that this is a sentimental family heirloom for me. And we talked from a social work perspective of does this mean that objects or even human beings who might feel broken, are totally useless? And the answer is no. Do we have to be perfect all the time? No.

Does God expect us to be perfect all the time? No, it's impossible. Maybe does society expect us to be perfect or is there sort of a false sense of beauty and perfection with airbrushing and things like that? Sure, but there's a philosophy called Wabi-sabi that's about embracing imperfection. So how do we decide about ourselves? Am I useless? Is someone else no longer useful or can we still be seen as precious children of God and precious siblings to each other, precious neighbors in our brokenness? How do we break free from that? And there's whole other Bible studies and workshops and podcast episodes about that.

But since I'm talking about the creation of pottery, I also wanted to lift up what happens when either the piece of pottery is broken or when we might feel broken and that God is perfect and endures forever, but God gives us a free gift of love and redemption that we can't earn by being perfect. Now, we do strive to lead good lives? I've talked about that in many other episodes before.

So yes, we strive to serve and to love and to act out God's love, to share God's love with other people, but we're not beating ourselves up for being imperfect because we know that we can't be perfect.

So I hope that makes any kind of sense, and that might leave some room for journaling. How am I prepared? How is my foundation? What rough edges might need some pruning. Are there some drips? Am I imperfect? And is that okay? How do I endure? What happens if I feel broken? Can I be put together in a unique and precious way that can still serve the world even if I'm not the same as I was before? And can I accept God's free gift for myself knowing that I can't earn my own eternal life?

How do we value each other in all of our brokenness? After I searched for Bible verses about Potter and clay, I looked up the song so that I could share the composer with you, and at that point I realized how many songs include a phrase about God being the potter and us being the clay. I had originally thought of the song “Change My Heart, o God” by Eddie Espinosa.

But soon I saw one of my favorite songs that I'd like to read some of the verses to you. Now, you can think of it as a prayer, although we will have an original prayer written and read by Stephanie Hittle afterwards, followed by a sung version of the Lord's Prayer, sung by Eric Haitz. The lyrics I'm going to read now were written by Adelaide Pollard. And the music was composed by George Stebbins. If you wanna think of this as a prayer, let me invite you into a space of prayer.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the Potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.
Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me, I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine.
Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o'er my being absolute sway!
Fill with Thy Spirit till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me.

Amen.

So my parting thoughts and hopes for us today are that we can consider how are we being molded? How do we discern God's vision for us? That's something that's, we've also talked about in previous episodes. I don't have all the answers to that. I would again recommend the Bible study that's titled “Discerning The Voice of God” by Priscilla Shirer. And part of that, I mean, I don't recall that there were any examples of pottery in that, but part of it is just prayerfully seeking God's will in our lives and looking at maybe some of the different signs along the way in our lives, how do I know what God has in mind for me?

And am I willing to just move forward as things are now and wait and see what happens? Maybe we stay lumps of clay forever, and that's okay too. There's all kinds of different ways of beauty. I don't have to stay the way I am permanently, even though I might want that in my life. I might not be too excited about change, but change is part of life and how can I be okay with that?

So that's what I have for us for today. We do have a closing prayer and a closing Lord's prayer coming up. Blessings on your day or your evening and your season. Thank you.

2 Corinthians 4:7-9 “We are like common clay jars that carry this glorious treasure within so that the extraordinary overflow of power will be seen as God's not ours. Though we experience every kind of pressure, we're not crushed. At times we don't know what to do, but quitting is not an option. We are persecuted by others, but God has not forsaken. We may be knocked down, but not out.” (The Passion Translation)

Heavenly Father, as we endure uncomfortable shifts in our lives, help us to understand and realize that there is a greater purpose through the discomforts. We know the pressures of our trials create beauty from your hands.

You are the perfect potter in our lives. You take what has been broken apart and turn it into a new masterpiece. With the fingerprints of your grace and the grip of your glory, we can be restful and assured. You are taking what is no longer meant for us and transforming it into what is May we know that as we walk through the burning furnace, you are walking along our side protecting us from what is unseen to our human ability; and that your Holy Spirit is guiding us to our renewed purification.

May you remind us when our spirits feel weak and unsettled, that you are our potter. And as our potter, we are in your hands as you turn our debris into treasures. Thank you for being our artist, our guide, and our devine Father. Thank you for using what is meant to be against us and using it for the blessings upon ourselves and others.

In Jesus' name we praise you. Amen.

Prayer by Stephanie Hittle

Bible Studies and Social Work Courses

Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. 

This week, I provide a summary of a number of Bible studies that I participated in and facilitated during the past six months. The last time that I did a recording, similar to this was in May of 2021.

At that time, in episode number 49, I briefly reviewed four Bible studies, including one on the book of Hebrews. Another titled “Discerning the Voice of God”. A study that I participated in that was led out of Dubuque, Iowa. And finally, one that came from one of my seminary classes titled “My Neighbor is Muslim”.

Since that time, I moved to Massachusetts, continued to facilitate Bible studies and also taught four social work courses to undergraduate students that I'll tell you a little bit about at the end. Today's verses include the word behold, but I'm not going to read all 586 of them in the New King James version, according to Bible gateway.com.

Just a select few. I'm generally not someone who has a word of the year or who actively seeks that. I can certainly see the merits of doing so. I have had a word of the year from time to time, and I couldn't tell you what any of them were. I feel like the common expression really applies in my life: when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. That has happened a number of times. And I get a bunch of email blog posts and see things on Facebook and things like that. Right around the new year, the word behold jumped out at me.

And I knew immediately that that needed to be my word of the year for a number of different reasons. I will have three examples for you today of the use of the word behold. I would encourage you to look it up. Now the word behold is typically used in perhaps older translations.

I'm not sure if that's the right word to use, but some of the more contemporary translations don't use it. And I'll give some examples of that later on also. But the first one that I wanted to share with you today is in Genesis chapter nine, verse nine, which is the story of Noah. Genesis is the first book of the Bible.

If you want to look it up: it goes like this out of the New King James version. “And as for me, behold, I establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you.” And this is precious to me because it's a reminder of the covenant that God has with us after the story of the flood. And there were so many different verses to select from, but we'll get to a few more, a little bit later, but I would really encourage you, if you think of a word, look it up, type it into either Bible gateway or any other website and see where it comes up in the Bible. And some paper Bibles also have listings in the back, like a directory if you're looking for a bunch of verses about forgiveness, say for example, this is where you can look. And the reason I picked the word forgiveness is because the first study I wanted to tell you about is titled Forgiving What You Can't Forget. And the author is Lysa TerKeurst.

There was so much good information in this Bible study that I am certainly not going to be able to share all of it, and that wouldn't be appropriate anyway, but I would really recommend this book. 

And even just the table of contents of this book could give you a little sneak preview. Session one is what am I supposed to do with all the hurt? Session two is your mind, your mouth, your master. And it goes on, it was really a terrific study. And one thing that I enjoy doing, I've been in leadership positions before where groups have decided, okay, what studies are we going to offer this fall?

And this particular group of women that are meeting, we just select our studies by voting on which one we want to do next. So we do a poll and sometimes I'm really enthusiastic about a study and I highly recommend it. For example, I had wanted to do the study, Discerning the Voice of God for years and was glad that at some point it came up as number one in our poll of what study to do next.

And we are always amazed that the studies that we select ended up being so relevant in our lives for reasons that we might not have even anticipated. So I've done many studies by Lysa TerKeurst and they're all really good.

And then sometimes I think, okay, let's do a study, from somebody different. But we always end up coming back to another one of her studies. And this one was an example of just so on time in my life, really helpful. There is an example of a worksheet that I want to tell you about that's on Proverbs 31.org/forgiveness. The author has a chart with a Bible verse and helping us think about the verse and its applicability in our lives.

So what is the theme of the verse and what does God want for us with this? One thing that we talked about in seminary is that it's kind of easy to think about everything in the Bible like how does this apply to me? The verse from Genesis that I just read, talked about God establishing a covenant with us.

So yes, the Bible is applicable to all of humanity, but sometimes the Bible is also telling us an important story where we can learn a lesson, but we don't always have to immediately think of for every single verse, how does this apply to me? But I thought that this was a helpful exercise because sometimes for me, it's easy to skim through long Bible passages. And it helps me to listen on Sunday morning when someone else is reading. And if I don't have the chance, or even in addition to listening on Sunday mornings, some Bible apps will read it to me. 

I pay much attention to a Bible passage when I'm listening to it, because I can't skim through it more quickly when I'm reading it. And so the reason I mentioned that as an example with this worksheet is that you're invited to really spend some time with the passage and think about what are the themes and write them down because for some people writing down helps to settle it in our minds, but it'll help us to remember later what it was about. And so one question is, what does God want from me in this verse? And another question that this author also brings up is the opposite. So what is the opposite of what could happen in a situation? The example in the book is the use of our language, how we can hurt people or how we can help people with what we say.

So God wants us to exercise control over our tongues and to support other people and not tear other people down. So I would highly recommend this study and take a look at the website. There's a number of resources accessible to everyone, whether or not you choose to purchase the book.

And another study that I wanted to tell you about is called The Dream of You by Jo Saxon. And one concept that I've become more familiar with recently is that companies offer online Bible studies. 

And some of the online Bible studies release videos for free. So this was one of the reasons we picked this study. I really loved the subtitle after the dream of you. It says, let go of broken identities and live the life you were made for. And the whole book is in a faith-based context. So I have one quote to read for you today and just the whole book is underlined and dog-eared very powerful. 

On page 57, the author writes "when we trade our identity for a perfectionistic alternative, even when it's for survival, it comes at a heavy cost. We lose our true selves and we lose our voices. We lose our spiritual authority because perfectionism relies on our skills rather than God's power. It costs us our purpose because perfectionism has a different purpose than the one God has given us. We lose our courage because at the root of perfectionism is fear." This book included lots of questions to journal about and to really consider our God-given identity, which is in contrast to social expectations or societal identity preferences. I invite your consideration of what is our calling in life? And how do we discern our identity based on God, not necessarily societal expectations.

The next verse that I wanted to read for you with the word behold in it is from Isaiah chapter 40 verse nine, and Isaiah is near the middle of your Bible. And if you know me at all, you know how much I love the Messiah. It's a piece of choral music that I've sung many times, and it helps me to memorize scripture through music. So I can quote you many, not only from the Messiah, but many Bible verses from hymns or anthems or praise songs. So this one for me, came to mind immediately when I saw the word behold that I had mentioned near new years and thought that this is going to be my word of the year. So here it is from the New King James version, Isaiah chapter 40 verse nine.

“O Zion,
You who bring good tidings,
Get up into the high mountain;
O Jerusalem,
You who bring good tidings,
Lift up your voice with strength,
Lift it up, be not afraid;
Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!”

I would much rather sing it for you, but if you want to listen to it, song, go look up the Messiah. It's a really long piece of music, but it's all good stuff. If that's your thing, which it is for me. 

The next study that I wanted to tell you about is called Finding God Faithful by Kelly Minter. And this study comes from a publisher that I sometimes have some disagreements with, but this particular study was really excellent and I highly recommend it. Although the content was a study on the life of Joseph, the author did a fabulous job, really sharing applicability in our own lives, in finding God faithful in our many different circumstances. And this is the Bible study that transitioned me during my move from New York state to Massachusetts.

So it was just so relevant because many Bible characters travel many miles, and  I drove in a car, not exactly under biblical conditions of walking miles and miles and miles through desert conditions and things like that. But I was so grateful again for the timing of the study. And I wanted to read a quote for you from page 84.

"Dwelling with the God of promise is far superior to dwelling in the place of promise."

 And there are many helpful questions in this book to journal about or to prayerfully consider. Where are you physically? Are you where you thought you would be? Are you where you want to be? I sometimes think, oh, I'm supposed to be here or, oh, I don't want to be here. Or maybe I'm not supposed to be here or where am I going next? And what does all of this mean? And what's going on? So the theme of God's faithfulness through generations, through centuries, through millennia really was very powerful.

I also learned as I was researching verses for behold, is that some translations use other words instead of behold, for example, listen, look, watch. So I wanted to read you an excerpt from The Message, and often in this translation verses are grouped together in sort of a paragraph. So in this case, it's Isaiah chapter 43 verses 16 to 21. Not every single verse has its own number because the thoughts are combined or rephrased. So here's Isaiah 43 from The Message. "Be alert, be present. I'm about to do something brand new. It's bursting out. Don't you see it? There it is. I'm making a road through the desert rivers in the badlands."

And I like the word behold, just fine. So I can understand behold, but I can really, really understand, be alert and be present. And maybe that's more accessible for people to have an understanding of what that means. And I took a class on Isaiah and I talked about Isaiah more in a previous episode.

The final book that I wanted to mention to you today was used in a grief support group this fall, and the group read a book called The Grief Recovery Handbook by John James and Russell Friedman. And I would highly recommend this book.

And one thing that I really appreciated was that this grief support group was facilitated by leadership at an organization whose website is thehiveapiary.com. And what that ended up meaning for me is that the leader from the hiveapiary are, many of them are clergy people. They may have other leaders who are not ordained ministers. But what that meant for me with this group support group was that it had a faith-based focus. And that was very helpful for me. The book I believe is entirely secular, although it references, certainly if you have either faith or maybe you're having some difficulty with your faith in a grief situation.

But for me, the support group was a really nice combination of this book, as well as faith-based emphasis during the sessions. And I wanted to read a quote to you from page 41 of this book, and I do very highly recommend the entire book. " Recovery means discovering and completing what was unfinished for you in your unique relationship."

So, one of the reasons I had joined again, this is a classic example. When I was looking for something, it literally just came to me. I participate in a couple of different groups that do journaling and other types of writing exercises with prompts. And I thought about asking those instructors, if they would ever consider doing a group about grief in particular.

And then I thought, well, if I need to write about grief, I can write about grief any time. I don't need to change the focus of these people who are leading groups on various different topics. Practically the next day, I got an email announcing this grief support group. So I thought, okay, I need to do this grief support group.

And it did include some writing assignments, some worksheet activities that were incredibly helpful and impactful and yes, sad, but I feel very supported through that journey. And one of the things that had prompted that was that September was the one-year anniversary of my mom passing away. And as I was moving, I kept thinking, oh, she would be interested to know about this or whatever that was appropriate, just sadness and remembering.

So I'm really glad that I participated in that group and read the book. And then the final study that I participated in and also helped co-facilitate last summer was on the book of Ecclesiastes. And there's a future episode in the works just about the book of Ecclesiastes. So I'm not going to go into that today, but just a little FYI that will be coming up later. I really appreciated that because I haven't spent a lot of time in the book of Ecclesiastes. So that was really helpful. And finally, I wanted to tell you about the social work classes that I taught last fall, because even though they were primarily secular in nature, I believe that the content, especially of two of them are relevant to everyone.

So I taught social work 101, which was just a joy and a privilege to introduce the field to students who probably already have this as their major or perhaps they were just exploring it as an elective from a different major and the course covered lots of different things that social workers do that maybe new students weren't aware of, lots of different kinds of fields of social work from working with little kids.

Maybe people think about that more often than not, to senior citizens or teenagers. Of course, people of all ages, families, groups. And then in different settings. So social workers can be in healthcare settings, in prisons, in schools. The list just really goes on and on. So that was really neat. 

I also was invited to teach a course about cultural competence and I learned a great deal in that class. It was absolutely fantastic. Although heartbreaking because we have so much work to do when it comes to cultural competence. Even if we already think that we know a lot about a lot of different things, I can guarantee you there's a lot of stuff that we don't know. 

And one of the things that we talked about in this class when it comes to privilege and oppression is that sometimes we don't even know that we're in a position of privilege.

And the information that I wanted to share with you first was called a Christian privilege checklist because we're to take a look at how are some people's ways of life kind of in sync in an unspoken way or an overt way with society? Leaving other people perhaps to the side. And one example, I'll just read a few of you from this Christian privilege checklist: is I can expect to have time off from work to celebrate religious holidays. That as a Christian, my religious holidays are typically in alignment with American holidays.

Say for example, Christmas day or some states have other religious holidays, that kind of linesup say, for example, in Massachusetts, typically the Monday after Easter is off, but not for overtly religious reasons. 

Living in a place with some Christian based holidays, although it was much more living in Germany, there are significantly more religious holidays that are part of the state calendar. So say for example, Ascension day in some states in Germany is a holiday and I happen to know what Ascension day is, but I couldn't really imagine having it off from work in the United States. I don't think I ever necessarily went to a special Ascension day service if one was offered in the middle of the week, for example

One that might seem fairly obvious on a Christian privilege checklist, at least in the United States is that I can worship freely without fear of violence or threats. And we do know that unfortunately, not everyone in the United States is free to worship freely without fear of violence or threats, because there is fear and discrimination towards people of different faiths that may not seem mainstream or really even if they are mainstream statistically, many other faiths are growing in great numbers and many Christian churches are becoming smaller. Although worldwide, there are still Christians living in many countries who are persecuted and who are not able to worship freely.

Most Christians also can practice their religious customs without being questioned mocked or inhibited, for example, in the United States. I took a fantastic workshop that was offered by the National Association of Social Workers in New York state. And it was for social workers to understand a little bit more about the Muslim faith and practices - how can social workers support people who either work in their agencies or in any way, just in the world, doesn't even have to be as part of their agencies when it comes to prayer and fasting. Some of which is done regularly, some of which is done more at certain times of the year, say for example, Ramadan and foot washing practices.

So one example that the presenters had mentioned in that particular presentation was that in some workplaces, there are lack of places to go to pray. And one person's boss said, well, can you just go pray in the bathroom? And you know, yeah. I can pray in the bathroom. I really don't feel like that's an appropriate invitation to someone, but to a person of faith who is praying at certain times of day, just as an example.

The last thing I want to read for you on the Christian privilege checklist is if I am being tried in court, I can assume that the jury of my peers will share my faith. And that's something that the jury of my peers, there's many different ways that people may or may not be peers.

And that one had actually not really occurred to me previously. So that's a great example of something that I learned of even my Christian faith, or even being asked to swear on a Bible or something like that. How it's so easy to take that for granted. So that was really eye-opening. And we talked in this class about our own experiences, both growing up, being socialized, what we were taught about other people, what we were taught about our own family or our own heritage.

So students were welcomed and hopefully felt safe to share their own experiences. During the semester long course on a whole bunch of different topics. And I was really heartbroken by some of the stories that people shared about experiences that they had had around faith. And I just really want to encourage listeners if you're ever in a position to speak with someone who you believe may not be Christian, or may not be say, going to church regularly is to prayerfully speak with welcome and be aware that speaking with judgment can cause tremendous pain to a listener. And I know that many people feel that we should educate people about what's in the Bible. We should help people try to live good lives and things like that. But what I heard from some students in my class is just pain.

Just being judged really, truly overtly- based on what they said in this class, there was just no doubt about it. And so my belief truly is how are we welcoming people to a faith or telling them that God loves them at the same time that they are feeling judged and excluded and frankly condemned. So how do we balance. You know what? I take that back. I don't like how I'm saying that because I would rather make everybody happy. And I know that that's not possible. I don't really know that there's a balance. Maybe this is a whole going to be a whole other conversation. 

What I'm trying to say is it's more important to me to tell people that God loves them than to say I believe that what you're doing is wrong and I'm judging you on behalf of my understanding of God judging you, because I disagree. So we can have a conversation about this. There are places to leave comments on the podcast website, as well as on the Facebook page for 40 minutes of faith, this is a really complicated issue.

And I feel like I need to honor the privacy of the students in the class by not telling stories about what they said without their permission, but I'm sure you can imagine people feeling judged for lots of different issues. We also talked about something from a really, really long time ago and I would tend to think why is 1493 important? Why does it matter? I mean, yes, of course history is important. Why do I need to know about something that happened in 1493, but still impacts people today? And one of the things that we talked in this class about throughout the semester was how oppression is still alive and well these days, and yes, there has been some progress, but there is still a lot of work to be done around righting wrongs from the past. So in this particular session about faith-based privilege and oppression, we talked about the doctrine of discovery, which was issued by Pope Alexander the sixth in 1493, essentially stating that explorers could take over land in the name of the church.

Specifically around Columbus's “discovery”, but that this document was looking to ensure the exclusive rights to the land. And this document has since been repudiated by many people, but not by all, to say that it's really not appropriate under any circumstances to say we're claiming this land and the heck with whoever was here before, that we're claiming this land with no regard whatsoever to the people who were already on that land. We also talked a little bit about land acknowledgements. 

Another course that I think can be meaningful for anyone, not just social work students was policy advocacy, and that has to do with how we lift up our neighbors who are in need, who may have legislative or other practices that end up not treating them with the same kind of dignity when it comes to race or wealth or even age, any aspect of who people are. So the students in the class did a great job doing research around different groups and policies and what needs improving and funding.

And how do we advocate for change? And where are there gaps in service where further advocacy could really benefit people? So just wanting to encourage that anyone can help advocate for change. You don't have to have a social work degree or any college degree at all.

You can become informed about what's going on in the local legislature at the state level, even something like the board of education for your community, and then certainly at the national level as well. And there are petitions that can be signed. Phone calls in person visits are probably happening a little bit less, but there are many different ways to advocate for care for our neighbors.

And obviously most programs cost money, especially if there’s staffing or services to be delivered. So that's part of the conversation as well as how is our money being spent to care for our neighbors. Actually, that reminds me in social work 101, the students did a paper about a program that used to be called food stamps.

It's now called SNAP, supplemental nutrition assistance program. And at the time that the paper was assigned in September, students had $4 a day to eat. And we talked together that there may be times when completing this assignment is not either necessary or appropriate if somebody has health concerns, but it was to learn what is it like to have $4 a day to live on, which was the SNAP benefit at the time.

And you can't use stuff that you bought before that's sitting in your cupboards. You can buy everything the first day of the week with all your money and then not buy anything else the rest of the week, or you can go day by day. And the struggles that students experienced, they did a great job writing their papers, and there was no consequence to stopping it early or doing an alternate assignment if they had a health situation where it was just not a good idea, but the students were horrified at $4 a day being provided to people as the SNAP benefit, because sometimes you hear oh, people are taking advantage of government handouts and things like that. But none of them thought that $4 a day was enough.

And a very few students bought everything at the beginning of the week and did relatively okay. But the students doing the day by day purchasing had a much harder time. By the end of that class, the benefit had increased to $4.40 per day per person. And obviously in the aggregate that's millions and millions of dollars, but in this day and age 40 cents increase is absolutely not enough.

So thank you for your time today. I invite you to behold. Behold God's goodness, behold our neighbors in need and prayerfully discern how we can learn more, both about God and God's word as well as serving our neighbors. 

 Forgiving What You Can't Forget by Lysa TerKeurst.

 https://Proverbs31.org/forgiveness

The Dream of You by Jo Saxon

Finding God Faithful by Kelly Minter

The Grief Recovery Handbook by John James and Russell Friedman

https://thehiveapiary.com

Ethics with Craig

Barbara: Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. I'm here today with guests, Dr. Craig Nessan, to talk about faith and ethics. I met Craig in 2019 at Wartburg Theological Seminary, where he's a professor and Academic Dean. As I've mentioned during previous episodes, it feels a bit odd to address faculty and deans by first name, but that is the Wartburg way.

Prior to Wartburg, Craig served 11 years as parish pastor in Pennsylvania and Missouri. He holds degrees from Michigan State University, Wartburg Theological Seminary, and the University of Munich. Craig, how are things in Iowa these days? 

Craig: Well, like the rest of the country, we're suffering from this pandemic that doesn't seem to have any and so it really creates a lot of stress for people in their lives, more than they realize it. 

Barbara: And hopefully we can provide some support and encouragement through today's conversation, even though it's not directly about COVID necessarily or illnesses. 

Craig: I think it could be in centered in one's faith and one's intention to live an ethical life is the way forward in all circumstance.

Barbara: our Bible passage today is from Genesis, which if you're following along in your Bible is at the very, very beginning, the first book in the Bible, chapter three, verses eight to nine. I'm going to read from the new revised standard version. 

“They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, where are you?” 

Craig, I have a hunch about why you selected this Bible passage for today's topic about ethics. Could you explain why? 

Craig: Genesis is the first book of the Bible. And at the beginning of Genesis, which means beginning, there are two creation stories and this particular text from Genesis three is from the second creation story.

And it's the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. I think it's really important for us to understand that this is not a historical account of the origin of humanity, but rather this is a text that is told in the Bible in order that we can understand ourselves in our relationship to God. And this particular verse focuses on the relationship between human beings and God.

And it focuses on the belief that all of our life is being lived in the presence of God and living our lives in the presence of God is the basis for thinking about an ethical life. That everything that we do really is being done in the presence of God. Now, this was more transparent to people in ancient times than it is for us today in a secular world, we don't have a same sense generally about that God is really involved and active in our lives.

But this text reminds us to really that all of our life is lived in the presence of God. Who's paying attention to us. 

Barbara: I had a wonderful challenge when I was thinking about our conversation today because I have pages and pages of notes that I took in the class you taught at Wartburg.

And I thought it's really going to be just about impossible to condense four months of learning into a 40 minute podcast episode, but I've got two previous recordings on a related theme. And then we also have a bunch of resources that we'll be recommending. Back in February of 2021 I spoke with professor Martin Lohrmann in episode 35, we talked about salvation and some of the nuances that will be furthering that conversation today. And then in May of 2021, I spoke with Blake Shipman in episode 50 about theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who wrote about ethics among many other things.

So I recommend listening to those two episodes if you haven't already, because they are related to our conversation about ethics. But one difference that I noticed right at the beginning of the class, we talked about the word freedom, which has shifted - how freedom is meant in the United States these days, or over the past few hundred years, as well as theologically. So I'm wondering, Craig, could you help us understand the concept of freedom from and freedom for what do those mean when we're thinking about ethics today? 

Craig: to put it in a larger context in our contemporary society, I think most people, when they hear the word freedom will not at all really in their minds be thinking about what Christians mean by freedom.

I think that in our society, when we use the word freedom, we think especially about lifestyle choices that were free to make. Lifestyle choices that through our democratic form of government, we have political freedoms that are protected by law. We think about our economic system as a free market system.

And we also think about the use of military force to guard and protect these freedoms. This means however that when people hear the word freedom in the Christian sense, that's really what you're asking about, they're not going to necessarily understand the freedom that comes from Christian faith, and that is a freedom that we received as a gift from God because of the love of God in Jesus Christ.

When Christians talk about freedom, they talk about the freedom that we're receiving from God in Christ. And it's a freedom both from anything that's keeping our lives in bondage, God in Christ is setting us free from anything that is preventing us from being the people that intense us to be, but we're also set free for others.

Christian freedom finally is directed toward neighbor love and care for creation. And this two-fold meaning of freedom often is totally lost when we use the word freedom in our society. 

Barbara: you basically summarized, some complex language that I was brought up to know as justification and sanctification, meaning that we have a free gift.

And that was part of what I talked about with Dr. Lohrmann as well, that our choices in behavior, when you talked about caring for our neighbor are not done to sort of earn points to get into heaven, but they're a response to this freedom that you talked about. And we'll be getting into some more details as we continue the conversation today.

And another really important concept that you talked about during the class that I took with you was our baptismal vows. 

And I have talked about baptism in other episodes as well, but could you speak for a few minutes about why is baptism important when we're talking about ethics and what if you're not baptized?

Craig: to dismiss one thought that a hearer might have is that baptism is a gift and not a requirement. And it certainly my theological understanding that baptism bestows God's connection with us in Jesus Christ. God's love and forgiveness, but I'm not of the opinion that those who are not baptized are necessarily excluded from God's love or salvation.

So that may not be the typical view of many Christians in the United States, but I think that God's love shown to us in Jesus is bigger than baptism. Now that being said, baptism is very important for our affirmation of who we are in relationship to God, a faith relationship to God. And baptism begins with God's work and God's promises in Jesus Christ who receives us unconditionally in love.

And also aligns us with the death and the resurrection of Jesus so that our lives can be lived like Jesus life for the sake of others. And part of our calling as the baptized is to live out our faith in daily life that we as Christian people share this faith in words with other people, but we also live it out in terms of our commitment to striving for peace and justice in all the earth.

Just daily kindness that we show to people in our world. A lot of times the church has been too focused on its own internal agenda. The church can become what I call churchified. And that is, it thinks that we're only living out our faith when we're doing it inside a church building or for the sake of churches and institution.

And I think our time, like the time of the early church is a time for breaking this open and understanding that the life of faith really is primarily lived out in what we do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And not just the few hours or hour that we might spend in a congregation during the week.

Barbara: the words that you had mentioned, the affirmation of baptism that's part of the Lutheran faith tradition. I know also the Episcopal tradition. Probably others as well, but I always strive to be inclusive. Have people really feel welcome as part of this conversation and knowing that love of neighbor, maybe part of our baptismal vows, but that there are also other people loving their neighbors without that first and yet knowing that the invitation is always there as well.

What specifically about our baptismal vows are related to ethical behavior?

Craig: what we do when we gather together for worship services is a kind of formation for how we live our lives out day by day in the world. So the practices of worship are aligned with life practices that the holy spirit is seeking to instill in us so that we would live our lives in conformity to the way of Jesus Christ.

So some of those worship practices include learning to confess our sins and receive absolutely. I see this as a kind of learning to tell the truth about ourselves and learning to trust and even deeper truth that we are loved and forgiven by God. In spite of our sins, in spite of our shortcomings. Worship teaches us to live life as a life of praise teaches us to be peacemakers.

It teaches us to trust in God's word, above all the other words that are racing around in the airwaves and our world. Teaches us to be generous, teaches us to care about the things for which we pray. And in the holy communion, it teaches us to welcome all people for Jesus' sake and to work for an economy where everyone has what they need.

Barbara: I just want to verify my understanding of the word that you used, absolution, is a synonym for forgiveness. Are there any other nuances to the word absolution? 

Craig: that's the formal language used in many worship services, confession, absolution, but really it's about confessing our sins, our shortcomings and receiving forgiveness.

Barbara: I do tend to stay away from politics in general through this podcast, but another important term during a faith-based conversation is religious identity politics. What does that mean in contrast to the phrase neighbor politics?

Craig: I really see these as two different ways that Christians are seeking to live out their faith in today's world. First to your comment about avoiding politics, I think that's very difficult to do because politics are about how we work together in our world to strive for the common good.

I think Jesus had a politics. I think the Bible has a politics and there are many politics in the Bible, not just the one, but I think Jesus had a politics and it was under the rubric of the kingdom of God or the reign of God. Your listeners might notice that in our world today, not all Christians have the same agenda in terms of what they're trying to accomplish in society.

And as I interpret the various strains our religious identity politic is a religious agenda that is working to impose or to accomplish that their particular religious beliefs become established as the law for all people in the country. And there are certain litmus test issues that often accompany a religious identity politic in our world today.

And those issues relate to things like abortion or the teaching of evolution or homosexuality. How we conduct our international politics in the middle east. All of these things are an agenda by religious people who are trying to have their religious convictions legislated for everybody, Christians or non-Christians.

I contrast that in my book, Free In Deed, with a neighbor politic. And this is what I think Jesus was teaching us in the story about the good Samaritan, where the Samaritan was beaten up and lying on the edge of the road and the priest and the religious church member passed by on the other side. And it was the stranger, the foreigner who came and ministered to this man who was beaten up on the side of the road.

And that person happened to be a Samaritan. And at the end of that parable, Jesus asks, which one of these was the neighbor. And the hearer has to say the one who showed mercy. And so a neighbor politic in contrast to religious identity politics does not begin with my religious convictions. It begins with the needs of neighbors in our world, and it's very attentive to what neighbors are suffering in our world.

And it seeks to be an ethical life. That's responsive to the suffering of neighbors. And today we would have to add the suffering of creation. It's a politic that seeks to respond to the suffering of others, the suffering of creation, rather than trying to have my religious beliefs become the law of the land.

Barbara: Thank you. That's a terrific explanation. And if anyone wants to take a look at the good Samaritan story, it's in the 10th chapter of Luke, which is in the gospels, and I'm glad you mentioned your new book coming out, Craig, because I didn't have a chance to read it yet. Obviously it hasn't been published, but I’m happy to know that a great deal of the content is information that I may have learned in your ethics class. And I also wanted to give a shout out to a couple of other resources.. I also enjoyed reading another one of your books called the Integrity of the body of Christ, which is about boundary keeping as shared responsibility.

And the coauthor is Arden Malburg. That was one of the textbooks in the 21st century leadership course that I highly recommended. And we have a few websites as well. So thank you for sharing this information with everyone who might not be able to take a full seminary class in ethics.

Craig: Thank you for them. 

Barbara: And as we continue to delve into this topic that I learned about in your classes about cheap grace and costly grace, what's the difference between those two things. And why are we talking about that when we're looking at ethics? 

Craig: Well, I heard you mentioned that Blake Shipman had been a speaker on your podcast talking about Dietrich, Bonhoeffer.

Yeah. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer, to remind listeners, was a pastor living during the period of the Nazi reign in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s. And a Bonhoeffer really was appalled that the Christian Church, especially he was talking about the Protestant church, was not at all prepared to offer resistance to what was happening in their country where there were people being identified as scapegoats in the largest number of the Jewish people were being identified.

And Bonhoeffer had to do some self-examination about his own religious tradition and ask the question, why were they not responding? Why were they not protecting the people who were being harmed? And he came to the conclusion that in his faith tradition, his Christian faith tradition that grace had become something that was disconnected from discipleship. Grace was something that became disconnected from the following of Jesus. And so he coined these very powerful terms, cheap grace and costly grace in order to try to wake up the Christians of his time that they had an obligation to live out their lives in discipleship on behalf of the people who were in harm's way. And cheap grace to Bonhoeffer was where God blessed everything simply because God is a God of grace. We do not have to set any limits in terms of wrong behavior getting in the way of our relationship with God. But Bonhoeffer said no, the grace that is really grace is a grace that requires us to die to the things of this world that are harmful and to be raised with Christ, to serve those who are in need, especially those again, who are in harm's way.

And so costly grace was the grace costs Jesus Christ his life on the cross, but it's also a grace that costs us to risk a faith in order to be of service to neighbors, especially those who are again, most in danger. And during the Nazi period in Germany, these were the Jewish people, the homosexual people, the Jehovah witnesses, the gypsies, and many other marginalized.

Barbara: Yes. And I have also mentioned in previous episodes that I had for many, many years, put Martin Luther on a pedestal thinking, he founded this important principles about faith, and then to learn later that Martin Luther did at times speak and write hateful things about other people.

And these days, even we use a different name for Romani people. Even that him calling them gypsies, was maybe not at the time but a form of racism, if you will. So knowing that neutrality is not an option for us. I took that straight out of my class notes. I didn't come up with that, that speaking for people may not be easy, but it is what we're called to do.

Craig: I used the term gypsy because that was the term that was current at the time. So Luther is someone who had a very keen understanding of the great commandment that we are to love God, because God loved us. And we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. But Luther also had some very harmful writings where he did not live out neighbor love in the way that we might have wished that he did.

And particularly Luther's writings against the Jews were taken up in later centuries and used in order to provide rationale for antisemitism. And this was clearly the case again, during the Nazi period where Luther's writings against the Jews the title of one is against the Jews and their lies became evidence that the anti-Semitic policies of the Nazi regime and the Holocaust against the Jews were religiously approved. And this is something that the church that I belong to the evangelical Lutheran church in America, reputed these writings of Luther in 1994. And I think it's very important that that we repudiate those writings of whatever faith tradition and repudiate, antisemitic writings and antisemitic rhetoric in its entirety.

Barbara: Yes, there are a number of documents, which I've mentioned over the months of different episodes on the elca.org website. And I'll have a link to that as well in the show notes, but there are social statements on say church and society and our responsibilities to care for one another and then a whole bunch of other topics, some of which you had previously mentioned.

So there's a trove of additional writing and information out there that are all ethically connected as far as I'm concerned in terms of how we act, like you said, outside the church doors with each other. 

Craig: it really connects with the idea about cheap grace and costly grace and some people don't think that the church should take positions the societal issues of our time, but really the ethical life is all about caring for neighbors and seeking to address the things that would make life better for those neighbors.

And so the evangelical Lutheran church in America, like other church bodies, including the Roman Catholic church has social teachings. And the social teachings are trying to guide people to be better educated about the things that can make a better society. Things like education, things like human sexuality, abortion, death penalty, criminal justice system, genetics. There's a whole comprehensive set of curriculum for guiding us to how we might think more clearly about the great issues of our time. 

Barbara: Many of those documents have really done the work that I'm about to ask you. When it comes to just regular people, looking to make a decision in our lives, in an ethical manner, it makes a difference what we are paying attention to.

And how do we discern what's reliable. How do we slow down enough to examine multiple sources? And there's plenty of secular decision-making models as well. Perhaps even ethical, but what's the unique Christian angle on ethical decision-making?

Craig: Well, this circles around to the opening passage from Genesis that we began with at the start of this podcast- a working definition of ethics for me, and this would apply not only to religious ethics, but beyond is it involves intentional and deliberate reflection. Together with a community on the decisions that we have to make in living our lives in the world. And there are four different aspects to that definition. First it involves slowing down and thinking about the decisions that we're making moment by moment, day by day and pausing to ask, how does this hold up in terms of serving neighbors and thereby serving God? How can I test my ethical thinking with a community that I trust? A community of others that I trust- because left alone, we may deceive ourselves about ethics and we need a community to hold us accountable. We're making decisions all the time. Each one of us has made hundreds of ethical decisions today, but probably few of us have understood that these were ethical decisions that we were making.

And it's all then contributes to the wellbeing of the whole. It's not just a private ethic, but it's an ethic that has implications and consequences for other people. Now, when you take this definition of ethics and make it Christian, it would be intentional reflection together with the community, the church about the decisions that we have to make and living our lives in the world and that this has done in the presence of God it's done in the presence of Christ.

And so God and Christ are living persons who are asking us, where are you? Where are you in relationship to these decisions that you have to make? How do they align with your own values and how do they align with what's good for others?

Barbara: we may wish for ease, but ease is not promised to us. And that's really not necessarily something to be striving for as much as maybe my selfish self would like to have a life of ease, but God does call us to hard things.

And sometimes these ethical decisions aren't easy. Now, maybe we do have great clarity around a few things, but sometimes there's a struggle and kind of really grappling with who's benefiting and why are we making these decisions? 

Craig: I think the most authentic expression of an ethical life is seen in the lives of those who give their life away for the sake of others.

And in the Christian tradition, these are people who we often refer to as the saints, but the saints are not just people in distant times. This week, Archbishop Desmond Tutu died. And he risked his life for the sake of the freedom of the African people. And he risked his life for the sake of the Palestinian people.

And he risked his life for the sake of the gay and lesbian people. And so Desmond Tutu is an instance of the life that risked for the sake of others. In recent history, we would want to include people like Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Among this company, and Dorothy Day and the Roman Catholic traditions and Howard Thurman out of the Black church tradition. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer out of the Protestant Christian tradition and Mohammad Gandhi, Londa Scandi out of the Hindu tradition. These are all people who risked something for others in their ethical lives.

Barbara: I'm curious if there's anyone you can think of when I say whose voice is missing as part of this conversation, how can we be inclusive and welcoming or just to acknowledge anyone's voice missing that you can think of? 

Craig: Well, it would be easy to say that the voices of skeptics and doubters and people who claimed to be agnostic or even atheist.

But I think often these are people also have deep conviction. And in some cases they are living ethical lives that are exemplary and maybe even more exemplary than many people who claim to be Christians. And so I think it's important to keep an interfaith perspective when we're talking about ethics and an interfaith perspective that also is broad enough to encompass agnostics and skeptics and atheists.

And I think there are core ethical convictions that transcend religious traditions. And in my work, especially in another book called Shalom church, I hold up four basic ethical convictions that I think are universal to human beings, regardless of faith, regardless of their place and time. And those four convictions have to do with a deep commitment to peacemaking.

That means peaceful a peaceful resolution of conflict. Second core theme has to do with social justice. That is that all people have enough in order that they can live decent lives in this world, enough stuff, and enough protection that they can survive and that they can even have fulfillment in their lives.

A third conviction is the protection of human dignity. This relates to the universal declaration of human rights and that all people are intrinsically worthy and of intrinsic value. And that we're committed to the intrinsic value of all. Who are made in God's image and that is everybody. And then the fourth conviction I think, is acute in our time.

And it has to do with eco justice and care for creation. We need to hold up the wellbeing of creation because we are totally dependent and interdependent with everything that exists and everything that has been created, everything in nature. And so these four values, peacemaking, social justice, human dignity, and care for creation.

Barbara: Thank you. I often ask if there's an elephant in the room when it comes to the conversation of the day, and I think ethics is there just a herd of elephants tromping around, but anything in particular that you'd like to lift up as we conclude our conversation today around any sort of glaring elephants, nothing against elephants, of course. 

Craig: I would like to hold up the phenomenon of scapegoating as something that I see happening throughout our world and increasing the intensity in our society.

I think that human beings have a way of dealing with their own stress, their own anxiety and their own fear. And the way that groups deal with their anxiety and fear is that they find somebody to blame. This is what I mean by scapegoat. And the scapegoats are usually identified as being different than I am in some regard.

And I see really that this is happening on every level in our society. It happens in homes where there is someone in the family who is set apart and blamed for being the problem in our family. You could see it in schools with the phenomenon of bullying. You can see it in a gang violence in the streets.

And you can see it really in every level of society, including international politics. And one of the things that is very important is for us to recognize this this tendency, we have to identify somebody else to blame for our problems to scapegoat somebody else. And one of the things I think is really a gift of the Christian story about the crucifixion of Jesus is, is that when we look at the crucifixion of Jesus, what we see is here is somebody who was scapegoated, but did not deserve it here as someone who was blamed by the society.

But I said from the cross, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And I think that this message from the cross by Jesus. Can have great significance, not only for Christian people, but for all people that we would begin to recognize when we are scapegoating others and curb resistant saying there has to be another way.

There has to be a peaceful way to resolve this without any more blaming or any more scapegoating.

Barbara: Do you have any particular resources in mind for those strategies? We have some websites, currents journal, which isn't necessarily only about ethics and life of faith.info that you're involved with. But is there anything else that you recommend that somebody take a look at if they'd like to delve a little bit deeper?

Craig:  If I could revisit those four themes, let me mention something related to each of those. With regard to peacemaking and what I just said about scapegoating, the work of Rene Girard is very important and he has many interpreters such as Gill Bailey and others who have written about the significance of Girard's work and kind of trying to help us recognize when we're scapegoating.

The work by the organization, the fellowship of reconciliation for peacemaking that is trying to advocate for nonviolent resolution of conflict with regard to social justice. I think that the work of Jesus on kingdom of God and those who are interpreting what kingdom of God means for our time could be very useful for the listeners.

I think of the work of Walter Wink and the work of Rosemary Radford Ruether and others. With regard to defending human dignity, I encourage people to take a look at the universal declaration of human rights and to hold that up and to see how it is deeply rooted in a conviction about the worth of every person.

And with regard to care for creation, I think of the work of my colleagues, Larry Rasmussen and Lisa Dahill among others and the organization Lutherans restoring creation. 

Barbara: Thanks. 

Craig: I want to thank you for the invitation to be a part of this broadcast.

Barbara: Of course, thank you so much for your time today. 

 Resources:

Genesis 3:8-9

Luke 10

Free Indeed: The Heart of Lutheran Ethics (2022) by Craig Nessan

“The Integrity of the Body of Christy” by Craig Nessan and Arden Mahlberg

 Rene Girard

 Fellowship of Reconciliation https://forusa.org

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America www.elca.org

https://www.elca.org/Faith/Faith-and-Society/Social-Statements?_ga=2.50145574.1828740160.1641511571-657478216.1641511571

Walter Wink

Rosemary Radford Ruether

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

Larry Rasmussen

 www.currentsjournal.org  

www.lifeoffaith.info 

https://lutheransrestoringcreation.org

Lisa Dahill

Memory Loss

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

Today's topic is memory loss and honoring our parents, which is one of the 10 commandments that I really grappled with a few years ago. I am at peace to be able to talk about it now in a public forum, it was incredibly difficult at the time.

And since then, I've talked with a few friends about similar situations in their lives where their parents or other relatives are struggling with memory loss. And I'd like to frame this conversation in a faith-based today by acknowledging the this is a really tough situation for a lot of people, whether they're considering the 10 commandments or not.

I have a few practical tips from my own experience. And then I also want to honor the tremendous amount of information that's out there. I couldn't even begin to list all of the different websites and groups that are providing resources to families of people with memory loss, but I'm able to speak to my experience and a little bit about what I learned at my school two semesters ago around this topic, and just offer a word of encouragement for people who may be experiencing a great deal of personal challenge with memory loss at this time.

I started noticing memory loss in my mother before anyone else in my family. And I felt sad that she was not interested in any kind of support. I can say hopefully with some affection now that she liked to have control over her life. And for many people that's because they didn't have a lot of control earlier in their years.

So without going into too much detail, I can just acknowledge that it really had to be her way or the highway. So there were a number of independent living facilities that had graduated services. In other words, you might move into an apartment and then in the future, at some point, if you needed additional care, there were gradually more supports available to you.

So you could go say from cooking all of your own food to at some point in the future, having either a dining facility or food brought to you, also nursing care could become available. And then the possibility if it came to that, needing to move out of your own apartment and into a smaller space where you would receive more care, but she wasn't interested in any of those places.

First, she said they were too expensive, which of course is true. Many places are incredibly expensive that care for seniors or people approaching well these days, you know, 50 is the new 40 or 40 is the new 50 or whatever the expression is anyway. But for people who want to live independently with the option for more future care, typically these programs are incredibly expensive and insurance certainly doesn't cover some of the nicer services that if you want a facility that has say a swimming pool or additional recreational activities, things of that nature. So even though we talked about it and she agreed to look at some places, just sort of conceptually for the future, she refused to even fill out any application forms to get on wait lists.

Because she said they cost too much. And I honestly said to her mom, I don't want any money in the future. If you need to spend all your money to have a safe place to live, then I totally support that. And part of the conversation has been with my friends around people eventually stopping driving. And that's one thing that I'm tremendously grateful for.

My mom voluntarily stopped driving because she had some difficulties turning her head and her neck hurt a lot. And so she knew that she couldn't switch lanes safely and I'm so incredibly grateful that she was willing to surrender her vehicle voluntarily because I know for a lot of families, that's a huge place of conflict.

But also there was good public transportation near her, so she could get to where she wanted to go without a huge amount of hassle on public transportation, various different modalities that were accessible. And I know that that's not the case for everyone. Eventually the memory loss came to the attention of other people nearby, who then spoke with me about it.

And eventually other family members, relatives, friends, and neighbors certainly became aware of situations that, if it just happens every once in a while, I try, when I parked my car in a building to notice, where am I parked? Is there a sign on the streetlight that says, this is aisle A or aisle two.

And I try to remember course I don't remember, but I try to think, okay, I'm going to park kind of near this door. So then when I come out, I'll know what lane I'm in, but sometimes you come out and you're like, where did I park again? That's normal. You lose your keys, you misplace things. But she couldn't find her house keys when she wasn't home anymore.

And she would approach the neighbors and say, I can't get into my apartment. And her neighbors didn't have a key either because that was part of her control that she didn't want people to have a key. And eventually even people beyond her immediate neighbors were calling me. And I was praying about the situation.

And this is the time when I want to just introduce the fourth commandment, which is certainly very short, not a lot to it, but also there's additional information that I wanted to share around that because in exited. Chapter 20 verse 12th. This is at the very beginning of your Bible exited.

This is the second book of the Bible. It says, honor, your mother and your father. And then there's more to it, but that's the basics. And so I thought, well, how can I honor my mother, my mother doesn't want to move. I physically can't control her move. And yet I'm so worried about her forgetfulness, her safety.

Eventually it came that I was concerned about her personal care because we figured out after a while that it appears she may have forgotten how to cook because she had a lot of food in her house. Anytime. You know, my dad knew, I knew her friends knew her, her caregiver knew everybody knew that she had enough food, but she would say to people, I don't have any food and this would be really concerning.

And then I would get another phone call and that's okay. But eventually everyone knew that she did have food and it appeared that she just forgot to fix it for herself. So she would eat snack foods that were on the counter or something like that. And personal care as well. So I was not allowed to help with any of that.

I was not allowed to wash her hair for her, but I became concerned because people sometimes forget. Well, when is the last time that I had a shower or a bath? And safety in the shower or the tub is also another concern in terms of grab bars or slipping or mobility, D can do your shoulders still allow you to reach the top of your head to wash your hair.

And some people become for lack of another word grumpier, because it's just embarrassing when you can't remember this stuff, but also sometimes paranoia comes into play. And so people who like to have control of everything also sometimes fire there either if they have someone come to help clean the house or caregiver, because they are afraid that this person is going to steal from them. Now, unfortunately, sometimes it's true. Sometimes caregivers or people who come to clean your house do steal, but by and large, most people don't, and there are certainly senior care agencies that they are vetting people.

And it's unlikely, it's a smaller proportion. So especially if you have an agency that has screened people and that none of that stuff worked out partly because up from my mom's concern of how much money this stuff costs, but also because she didn't want people in her house, even if they were there to help clean or she was

say they didn't do a good enough job. Or one time, I just said, I'd like to wash the windows for you mom. And she said, no, they don't need cleaning, but they really did. So I'm not sure if it was a vision problem, or just denial or embarrassment or just control. Or just cognitive that she couldn't see what I could see that the windows really needed washing.

So one question when we're looking at honoring our parents is how hard am I going to push? How hard am I going to argue about this stuff? The windows need washing? Is that something I can just let go? Are we going to have a big fight about this? And sometimes people have been able to sort of negotiate or they just do it when the person's not looking.

So depending on what access you have to the area, personal care is certainly another concern. And as I was getting all of these phone calls, I was really praying because I wanted to honor my parents. And yet I was aware of a few possibilities, all of which were unpleasant, but I don't mind sharing those with you because

I learned things from other people that ended up being helpful for me on the off chance that they can be helpful for someone else. So one possibility that I had spoken with some local authorities about was the possibility of having it someone be declared in competent if they are not willing to voluntarily give guardianship or power of attorney to someone.

So a conversation to have is, you know, Hey, can I help with money management? You might not want to say it that way, but how can we problem solve kind of not opening mail, not paying bills, things like that is a problem sometimes or hiding money or just losing track of things. So some families are able to sort through that with power of attorney and then even the possibility of guardianship, but that was not an option when my mom

feeling like people are trying to run her life. She would complain to me that her friend told her that this friend, the kids sold the house out from under her. And it may have felt that way to the friend. And maybe that really did happen, but maybe the friend wasn't able to live alone anymore in a large house with large grounds.

I mean, not even a big yard, but just in terms of the responsibilities of home ownership and safety. And I felt that if I attempted to have my mother declared incompetent and apply for guardianship, that that would really rip the family apart because I was more anxious about what could happen.

She could fall, she could burn the house down. She could, she smoked it. You know, forget to take her medicine, forget to eat, forget to base. I felt like I was concerned out of care and love, not out of being mean or greed or anything like that. And the other problem, well, there were probably a bunch of problems, but the other problem that I wanted to bring up was just balancing how do I honor her and do it

what she tells me, how she wishes to be treated, how she wants to live? And frankly, even how she wants to die? With being a responsible citizen of the world, because it's a problem when someone is still mobile enough to get out of the house and then can't get back into the house. It impacts other people.

So someone being in a bad mood when you're with them is one thing, but someone bothering the neighbors. And then another question is of course do I move in with her? Does she move in with me? She smokes and she didn't want to live with me cause I wouldn't let her smoke inside my own home. And for some other logistical reasons, it wouldn't work for me to move in with her.

And sometimes that's just not a possibility. And I'm so incredibly grateful for people who do care for their loved ones in their own home, either in the home of the elderly person or the home of the younger person, son, or daughter, or other loved one. Because I know how much work that is and how much dedication that takes.

So I'm so very grateful for that. And I just wanted to mention that Martin Luther wrote the large catechism and the small catechism, which gave some explanations to the 10 commandments and a bunch of other documents. And he wrote lengthy many pages about what does this mean to honor your father and mother?

What does it mean to honor other earthly authorities the way we are called to honor heavenly authority? And I'm not going to read you all those 10 pages, but just to bring to your attention that Martin Luther also pointed out that there are times when parents are called to care for their children

the way that they are expected to. That's not explicitly written in the 10 commandments, but in my class that I took, the professor had mentioned specifically, God doesn't want scoundrels or tyrants in terms of abuse. There may be situations where it could be healthy, and as a social worker, I can say this, to have some separation in a family

because of unhealthy or abusive dynamics. So that was all running around in my head, as I'm trying to figure out what's the worst case scenario that something bad is going to happen? What if there's things that can be done to prevent it from happening, but we just can't make that happen?

So for example, I talked with a home healthcare agency that was able to send in someone to clean periodically someone to come and check on health and safety and things of that nature. And I just couldn't get anywhere because they said that they must be voluntarily admitted inside the door. So if my mother wouldn't let him in the door, then they couldn't go into the door.

They had to have a payment plan set up so that they would get paid, even if she didn't let them in the door, which I can certainly understand why they would want to do that. But it just didn't make sense if I already knew that she wasn't going to let them in and I couldn't personally be there every time.

Is that even worth it to set something like that up? And I ended up talking with some social workers, so shout out to the social work profession, because even though I'm a social worker, sometimes it's easier to help other people with their problems than to figure out my own. And also it's really great that there's people who are subject matter experts and I wasn't anywhere near a subject matter expert

even though I did my internship at a VA hospital that had a dementia unit, that was a really precious experience. And I'm so grateful for it, but the cases there were beyond what we're talking about now, which was early dementia, early memory loss. The VA hospital had a hospice unit. So I learned really to just treasure that end of life process.

And it was really difficult for me because I was a graduate student in my mid twenties. And it was sometimes a really painful experience. But now that I look back on it, I'm just so grateful and can honor that place because the hospice situation is designed to support both the person receiving hospice care as well as their family in that end of lifetime.

So that when we came in every morning, we would look at to see if anyone had passed away during the night, or since we left the day before and often there was, of course not every day. And for me at the time, it was really sad. And now I'm so much more grateful and appreciative to just honor that that's the process and we all have a time.

And it's okay. And yes, some people die too soon or what we would deem to be too soon that we would want them to be lost. It was hard for me to see people being spoon-fed and for older adults to be wearing diapers. But there were also nice aspects of the program before hospice level of care. There was a day program with activities and music and even watching the screen.

Yeah. I was able to observe a few as an intern. That's where I learned about the Enola gay because people can't really remember what street they live on. And they'll tell a whole story about the house in order to avoid the question of what street do you live on, but they remembered the name in this case because it was the VA hospital,

they've remembered key military names. For example, from earlier in their career, they certainly remembered music from their youth. So the day program was able to really tap into positive experiences and allow for some positive experiences for the people, with memory loss, as well as then some support groups for their loved ones for their relatives during this painful time.

So I had observed as a younger person, new professional, the more severe end of the scale. But for me personally, we didn't even have a diagnosis of my mom. It was pretty apparent to me that she was suffering from memory loss, but she refused to get tested for that formal diagnosis. And I can certainly understand, I don't want to be diagnosed with anything really, but sometimes it's better to know.

However, as an adult, some people are able to convince someone to get in the car with you and go somewhere. They might not really want to say for example to a doctor's appointment, but we didn't have that sort of setup in my family where I could convince her to go somewhere and that I would make the appointment for her and just take her.

But anyway, back to the social workers who helped me. I talked with a number of social workers trying to figure out what is the right thing to do in this case, because she wasn't officially or severely a danger to herself or others. It was more of a nuisance situation. So her neighbor would call me and say, she locked herself out again.

Or somebody in a local place nearby would say, Hey, she told us she didn't have any food. I know it's not true, but I just want to check in with you. And I said, I left there two days ago and she had enough food for three months, because especially in the winter weather for seniors, you don't want someone to have to run to the grocery store.

So they might possibly run out of say fresh milk or something like that. But there's plenty of stuff in the freezer and in the cupboards, in the pantry, things like that. So I knew for sure that there was plenty of food and they also knew that that was true, but the social workers ultimately said to me, Maybe something bad has to happen in order for the situation to change in order for this to be addressed.

And that was really my greatest fear, but they were very kind to me. They listened, they asked lots of questions. I tried to explain to the best of my ability, the details of the family situation. And they said that if she was still able to kind of get around and physically by her own food and physically admit people into the home and, or deny them access as the case may be and talk and things like that, that the it part of the social work code of ethics is the client's right to self-determination.

So in this case, my mother wasn't my client, but they could see it from that perspective. And I remembered even if we disagree with how someone is treating themselves or living their life, If it's not too unsafe or dangerous, then maybe it has to kind of get worse before it can get better. And that was really hard for me because I don't think it's honoring her.

If she thinks she doesn't have any food, even though she does, because she was afraid she would call me and say, what day of the week is it today? When are you coming to see me again? You may have been at the receiving end of those phone calls too. And I tried to be very available to her, but it broke my heart.

And then it also made me have a fearful reaction every time the phone rang, because I don't mind telling my mother what day of the week it is or reminding her that I'm coming to visit her again soon, but multiple times per day. Could be the neighbor, someone at a shop down the street and they know who she is.

They know who I am. Because as a community, it felt to me that the situation was intolerable, but she wouldn't let go of saying, no, I want to die at home. I want to die in my own bed. So how do we honor that at the same time that I was fearful of a worst case scenario? So eventually the social worker got through to me or were able to convince me that I wasn't being a bad person and that it was certainly my choice. I could attempt to have her declared incompetent and I felt like it would be ripping apart the family, even though that could be an exaggeration in hindsight, but as soon as something happens, then you will probably have a team of professionals around you that can help make things happen.

And that is how it worked out. Unfortunately, she took a fall and I'm so incredibly grateful that the fall happened in a place where her neighbors were able to find her very quickly and call for an ambulance because if she had fallen behind closed doors and nobody knew about it, that was one of the worst case scenarios that I was afraid of.

So the hospital was able to help us. And there's more to it. I'm not going to do a blow by blow of this meeting, that meeting the other meeting, because you've probably been through a lot of meetings or you can imagine, but ultimately in order to recover from the fall, from the injury resulting from the fall,

the hospital staff could recommend that she was not safe to have an immediate recovery at home and that there should be a transition. So even though at that point, everyone was in agreement that she needed more care than she could have in a home environment based in part on her personality of just, she wanted to be so independent.

She wanted to go out. She didn't want to just, well, who wants to always stay inside their four walls? This saying right as COVID is hopefully winding down for all of us in the world? But that for safety reasons, During her recovery, she would be in a place with staff where she couldn't just get out. And her dementia worsened exponentially and very quickly during that recovery time.

So even though I knew she probably was never going to leave that place, and it was okay with me that she kept asking, when can I go home? And this is something that I also wanted to share because I was always taught you don't tell a lie, you tell the truth. And some people have as their motto, the truth will set you free.

And so that was something else that the social workers and the staff helped me to understand with people who have memory loss is, does it really help the person to always tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? And in some cases, the answer is no. So say for example, someone who can't remember that one of their loved ones has died. Every time they ask you

oh, where's so-and-so and you tell them they die. That it's a new grief fresh, and it's not just once a day. It could be 10 times a day. They can't remember what you told them an hour ago. And they said, oh, where's so-and-so and you say they're dead. And again, and so is it necessary for that person to go through that kind of trauma and grief?

And then also if I can be so honest for all the people around them, because when you grieve, it goes on for a long time. And then sometimes he gets a little bit better and a little bit better. And the grief isn't so intense or so terribly painful, but if you're supporting someone who's going through that severe grief multiple times per day, That is also very traumatic and trying for everyone involved.

So that's a long explanation to say that the social workers and staff basically told my family that for people with memory loss who are in this place, whether they're ever going to go home or not, that it's okay to say next week, because we just knew she wouldn't even remember that answer by the next day, nevermind by the next week. So even though technically it was not truthful because nobody thought she was going home next week, that she probably remembered that she got hurt. I mean, there was a visible injury that she could feel and see in the mirror that she wouldn't be so angry about next week. And then after a while she stopped asking and the memory loss became much more severe and noticeable such that she was able to receive an assessment and a diagnosis and the staff and medical providers and social work team, and all were clearly able to note that it was appropriate for her to be in a place with staff where she didn't know how to get out.

And some places have locked doors because people are mobile enough to try to get into the door out the door and wander around the grounds and down the street. And that's actually a problem for many people, even still at home, there are special locks or tips or tricks that you can learn about. Sometimes there's a lock high up on the door where someone might not see it.

Some people are really good at getting out and figuring out that stuff. Some people end up having alarms on the inside of the door. So the alarm doesn't go off when there's an intruder. I mean, of course it would, but the purpose for the alarm is to notify if someone's trying to get out from inside the house at two o'clock in the morning, and you're just trying to sleep.

So in these programs that are staffed, some do have locks, some aren't depending on the way the building is set up and the mobility of the people inside the program. But once she was there and had the diagnosis and everyone could see that this was appropriate for her to be in this group care setting, they had activities, they had healthy food.

One thing that I noticed around her nutrition was after she was receiving this food three times a day, plus snacks. The menu was in the elevator. She became healthier for two different reasons. First of all, she forgot she smoked and they explained to us then if someone asks to smoke, if the patient has cigarettes, they have to let them smoke.

This was in this particular facility, but if they don't ask to smoke, the staff aren't going to say to somebody, Hey, do you want to smoke? So if she saw someone else smoking, she would say, can I smell. If she didn't see someone else smoking, she actually forgot. So she became healthier. She stopped coughing and her skin also looked healthier.

And I believe that it's because she was getting such nutritious food, whether it was eggs or an increase in protein. And for a while, she was able to feed herself. And then at some point she forgot really how to feed herself. Well enough that she could consume a whole meal in a certain period of time.

Now there was no nobody was rushing her or anything like that. But if you don't want someone sitting at the table by themselves for an hour, trying to spoon things into their own mouth so I spoonfed her and the staff spoonfed her. And then after a while, it got to the point where it was similar to the VA program that I had mentioned, where I did my internship, where she needed to wear a diaper and she forgot how to talk, but it was amazing to me the communication that could happen.

And it was really hard for me with COVID because of course, wonderful communication can happen just when you're holding hands, just making eye contact and I would talk and she would make little noises that you can tell if someone is generally happy noises or angry noises. So then on the phone, I ended up singing to her and she responded to that.

She enjoyed the music, but I felt that even when someone is in a place where they don't want to be, she didn't want to be in this group care facility when she first got there. You can still honor the person by doing what's right for them, especially when other people talk about it together and come up with a plan and agree that this is the best thing.

So I didn't feel like I was, or my family was being mean, or like she said about her other friends selling the place out from underneath her. And then another invitation that I wanted to suggest that's also really difficult for a lot of families to talk about his belongings. And that's something that is so hard and so sad to let go of possessions, because when you downsize, you can't take everything with you.

And so I honor people who are doing that voluntarily, even though it's really hard. And it's sometimes heartbreaking because you have all these boxes of memories, essentially, or whether it's seasonal decorations or kitchen staff, plates, that usually when you downsize, you just can't take it all with you. So you can help yourself and your family by doing it before you can't do it anymore.

Or in my case, when you can't do it anymore, then other people need to do it for you. So that's something that we couldn't do.  I had mentioned at the beginning, we tried to talk about the benefits of living in a program. I'll probably take it back someday, but right now I sure wouldn't mind somewhere where there's at least one meal a day.

Whether it's lunch or dinner or both, or you have a little kitchenette and it's optional, some places you only get charged if you have the meal and you might need to sign up for it. But some other places it's just built into the fee, which I know is high. Right now, I wouldn't mind having that, but I'm sure at some point in the future, I might change my mind and say, no, no, I don't want to move into one of those places or something like that.

So I want to recommend a website that I've mentioned in the past, which is fly lady.net. And that  has a number of tips on not only just general cleaning and organizing, but also holding on to stuff. And I can really respect my mom grew up during world war two, many of the not only older generation who grew up poor, but pretty much anybody you think, well, I might need this someday, so I'm not going to get rid of it because what if I

like the next day after I get rid of it. And then I'll be mad at myself for getting rid of it. So that's not specifically the topic for today, but one of the tips from fly lady is, do you have the means to get another one of something that you may or may not need in the future or is what you have broken?

Or is it sentimental in a good way? That's hard to part with, and could you maybe donate it and someone else could benefit from it? Say you have too many blankets or towels. I'm just picking something that might be kind of less painful. If you're downsizing, someone else could benefit from blankets or towels, but I know there's other more sentimental things.

So there's some strategies on there to take photos of the things that you love. Or sometimes we hold onto things that we don't really love because someone gave them to us. And we don't know if they're ever going to walk in the house and say, Hey, where's that thing I gave you? But to be released from that also to know that you don't have to keep everything that you're ever given and that this could be a game.

To voluntarily downsize or give away your things. And you can say goodbye to the things that you love or choose what you take with you. Because ultimately for my mom, she ended up having literally one closet worth of space and that's not a whole lot of stuff. So I just want to thank all of the many organizations that support people with memory loss.

If you search online, there's so much information out there. And I pray for those who are caring for loved ones, with memory loss, as well as mourning their passing.

Exodus 20:12

www.flylady.net

https://www.guideposts.org/caregiving

Visiting with Liz

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

Today's guest is Liz, and we're going to be talking about some different ways that people can volunteer with folks who might have a hard time getting to church or being actively involved in a faith based setting.

So we're going to explore some different ways that that might look. I'd like to introduce you to my friend, Liz. She's a lifelong Catholic. She grew up in Watertown, New York and went to college in Troy, New York, and she's a physical therapist currently working with children who have disabilities. How are things going today for you?

Liz: Everything is going great. Thanks for having me on today. I really appreciate it.

Barbara: we typically start the podcast with a Bible verse or a Bible passage. And I am happy that you gave me two stories of healing from the gospels, both in the book of Luke. One is in chapter five and one is in chapter eight. And I'm wondering, Liz, can you share, why are these stories of miraculous healing so important to you when we're talking about this outreach ministry?

Liz: Well, I I've always been touched by the healing that Jesus brought in the stories that we read in the Bible, in the new Testament. But as we know, he's alive today and he's working through us to bring his healing to other people. And the one is the paralytic. And he can't get himself to Jesus because he can't move or walk.

He has great friends. And while we know that Jesus healed him, the important  part of the story to me was that his friends were so dedicated to him. They climbed a roof and made a hole and lowered him so that Jesus could meet him and that he could meet Jesus. What if his friends they'd all gone to the healing service themselves and left him at home?

I also feel that Jesus wants us to think outside the box in how we can help, how we can help other people. But I do think that the holy spirit probably prompted his friends. And all we have to do is say yes, like they did. Let's all think together, how can we help this person? Or if we have a person in our parish or at church, just having troubles, how can we help them?

What can we do to ease their burden? And of course, if you bring it in front of Jesus, miraculous things can happen. And what I think too, with healing ministries and in visiting the sick and those who are facing challenges, just that we care about them can also make a big difference. You know, we may not all receive a miraculous healing, but we get small healings when other people share their time and their love with them.

And then the other reading just always struck me because of my background as a physical therapist. I really believe in the power of the human touch. That it's all connected- body, mind, and spirit. When I read that story for the first time and then many times later, I felt like when Jesus was walking along, he stopped because of that lady's faith.

And that he felt power leave him. That's has always struck me , it just stopped me in my tracks. It's all about the power of healing and what does that mean? We don't know the  whole thing. What I do know that human touch can really make a person bring down their barriers be open and soothing. It's just soothing to know that there's somebody right next to you.

The part about that too, is she tried, we all tried, we love our doctors. We love our medical communities help us so much. And she did all that , she really did. She was working with us for 12 years.

Barbara: Didn't she spend all she had on treatment?

Liz: And for 12 years she tried to get a reprieve. And so I think all of us, we, we do try our traditional methods first. And then when things become burdensome, when we exhausted everything , then turn to Jesus and he says, yeah, I can do this for you. You have faith, but it's not always the first thing we think of. I know if I get a headache, first thing I think of is taking a Tylenol.

You know, so we do have a balance- the medical community is awesome and wonderful. And I personally feel that the medical community is the first line of grace healing in our lives. And so many of them, we see come COVID , they really just sacrifice everything about their lives. They sacrifice for us, and when people that were sick, so it's all intertwined, but those are two of my favorite passages.

I mean, we all have a lot, but when it comes to my ministry, I really liked those. And when I was going through my course, they really spoke to me. And I do feel that we are the temples of the holy spirit. Christ dwells within us for his hands and his feet. And so a lot of times when we pray for people, Christ can place the holy spirit as somebody, a neighbor's heart, you will go.

You don't know why, but you might stop in, see your neighbor and visit with them and talk with them, and you’re being Christ to them at that point. So there's many different levels. Bringing Christ to others. You can show it with a smile. You can do it with listening to them, but some people need it way more than others.

If you're home bound and live alone, or if you're a nursing home and you don't have too many visitors, most of the people totally appreciate just the human contact. But if you go to it with the right spirit that you're bringing Christ to them, it can even be more powerful.

Barbara: I agree with you a hundred percent, Liz, and the reason I appreciate so much that you use the word inclusion is that I have found that you're very humble. You didn't tell me about this ministry, but I heard from a mutual acquaintance, how much it meant to her that you visited and she felt so included. Exactly how you're describing, that she felt God's love through your visits to her. So I just wanted to say thank you on behalf of all of the people that you've visited and this whole ministry that we're going to be talking about and inviting other people to maybe prayerfully consider whether this is something that they might be interested in.

Liz: the reason I'm sharing is not for myself, but just so that other people know that there's a great need for it. You get way more out of it than you give. And you meet and you make special friends for life. I had a schedule. You make the time. And then once you get there, you're like, wow, this is the most important thing I could be doing today instead of roaming around the store or something.

Barbara: the Catholic faith has a certain title. For example, you told me that you're a commissioned lay minister and some other faiths or denominations might call it something different, maybe a lay Eucharistic minister. So I would love to learn a little bit more about some of the specific things that you do. What does that look like?

Liz: The commissioned lay minister for me is commissioned by the church. It all started that they put pamphlets out at the church, seeing if people were interested in it. And the priests can instruct and teach to be a Eucharistic minister to bring holy communion or to give holy communion at mass and they can visit and bring holy communion to a parishioner. So that's one area, it'd be like a lector or an usher.

I took the pamphlet. And I was like, no, you don't need to do that. And I was like, well, okay. So I walked by it and I walked back and I picked it up. So I read about it. And my second child was heading to college that year.

And I was like, oh, I was just looking for a year to kick back and just work and not do anything else, but it kept speaking to me like maybe you should look into this. You have to talk to your parish priest about it, and they have to recommend you to take the course. It's a two-year course, and you have to apply.

And that went through the director and then he met with me and all the other candidates  at the parish center and it was once a week, Friday evening, and it went for two years and we had the summers off and we had different sections that you had to study. And a lot of it was the Bible and they would bring in professors to teach us theology, philosophy and communication and all different areas. And then at the end of it, you are brought in front, the Bishop commissioned you. And there are different areas of the ministry.

So you would pick an area of interest. So I picked the sick and elderly. Somebody else was interested in music ministry, somebody else in the RCIA program where it's teaching adults that want to learn about the Catholic faith, catechesis, where you teach the children and teenagers in the parish.

And some was the ministry of the liturgy where they would be there for the priest to help with all liturgical areas. So you had different areas but you had to learn everything. So and we did a lot of writing, which I enjoyed. We had a lot of assignments, there were no formal tests.

We had papers to write and research to do and assignments for all very doable, very helping you to deepen your faith and deepen your understanding so that when you came in touch with people, you would be able to at least have some basic understanding. And then I always said, if you have questions, then you can refer to your parish priest, or any priest , or sister or whoever that might be able to help you out more.

So it was just a wonderful time. And the people I went into the class with were just awesome and a lot of faith sharing and it was nice to be around people who really wanted to have a ministry in the church, have an active role in the church.

And I'm so happy I did. And originally it started out that I was at a nursing home.

I would do that every Friday morning and during communion all to people and visit with the sick and to me, it was nondenominational. The first time I went, I thought I'd be visiting like three or four people. The deacon told me you have the whole third floor.

And he goes, yeah, just do your best. And then you start out each week and introduce yourself. So I just went around and introduced myself and said, I would it be happy to pray with you and visit with you.

And so I got a lot of friends but a lot of them were not Catholic and I prayed, we prayed together and I just loved it. So I think that's another important thing is that if somebody didn't want me to visit, I certainly won’t push myself.

So I would enter the room, introduce myself. I went into this one room and the gentleman was wearing a Syracuse basketball shirt and he was doing the jumble, two of my favorite things. So we really became friends over there until he passed away. So every Friday we did the jumble together and I don't know if everybody knows what that is, but it's where the letters are mixed up and there's like four or five words and you have to figure them out. And so we would pass the paper back and forth and do that. And occasionally most of the time we'd get them all.

And he had a big, beautiful dictionary. So we use that a lot together. And then we always talk SU basketball and at the end I never found out what his actual faith background was, but I would say, would it be okay if I prayed with you or shared my prayer today? And he would always say yes, then at the end, every time he said, whatever, prayer I'd pick a song.

So he said to me that says it all. And that was our faith sharing. And we had lots of great times and stuff. I do not actually bring him the Eucharist, but we brought each other a lot of love and sharing and caring. And so it's interesting that you can have a set idea on things and what's the best, but that was a great story that we can't be into only visiting who's in your denomination. Like that's not what it's about. And I think every sick and elderly person loves to be cared about.

Barbara: it sounds like you were a blessing in his life, but also in a way you also received back blessings just from this ministry of presence that you had.

Liz: he was so fun. I just always liked going. I always look forward to going to his room cause we just had a lot in common. A lot of people are afraid of the sick. And yet when I went to see him, he had some pre-existing conditions, but mainly he was there because he couldn't take care of himself.

I think you can't be afraid to introduce yourself and it's not going to be perfect every time. I do remember once one man shook his head at me, which is fine, you have to honor what they want. So that was okay. But if you don't ever ask, or if you don't go in the room, you're not going to know.

Barbara: I should have said before when I was asking you about the topic, because you and I know what a lay minister is, but I realized I should have said that this is just ordinary people. So this is not going to a seminary to become an ordained pastor, this is regular people who want to do some volunteering, but get some extra training. So you feel a little bit more equipped, right?

Liz: Yep. And anybody can go to their minister, their priest, and just say, you know, I'm interested in this. Can you point me in the direction of where I can start out and meet with your own minister or priest?

I'm sure they would love the help. And if you have questions, I'm sure they would be happy to let you know. I was happy to have the extra training but most of us can do it right in your own neighborhood.

Barbara: Not all jobs require a two year training as well. I've been a Sunday school teacher before, and I had an introduction in how to be a Sunday school teacher, but I wasn't required to go to school for two years. So there's all sorts of different ways you can help.

Liz: I was a teacher for a couple of years to the third graders and I didn't have any training.

This is just one area where it helps you as a person to grow. Well also, you know, formal training in this area is the formal training is being kind and caring, right. Just being willing to visit somebody and talk to them and listen. I do enjoy bringing the holy Eucharist to people and as Catholics this is a special time for us where we know that Christ comes to us personally in the bread. And then I go right away and do my visits and bring it to the folks that people who would like the holy Eucharist and I have a booklet with special prayers. I didn't have to memorize it as well. I say prayers and prepare the person and we do that right at the beginning, but then it follows up with a visit.

Barbara: I had a up question because I really agree with what you said about the human touch being so meaningful and in my social work training we do have to learn some professional boundaries. So in most typical social work encounters, you probably wouldn't hold the hands of the person you're meeting with, but in a faith-based setting, that's totally different.

That's not the same thing as a professional social worker appointment. So I'm wondering if you had any training about that or how do you decide. Depending on who it is, would someone ever want to hold hands? I know when my mother was in a nursing home before she passed away, I held her hand and she couldn't talk anymore.

So that was really the only way we could communicate or that is the two of us together-I could sing to her. But how do you figure that out about, or is it never, you don't ever say, for example, hold the hand of somebody. If you're praying with them?

Liz: Oh, I make it an invitation. When I go to the home, I usually sit well across the room. So I’m not always holding a hand. At the end I will say, would you like a hug? I asked and most people want a hug. In the hospital, it was so much easier if I put my hand out and they reached out and put it on top, then we held hands.

Obviously you have to be very careful with that. It's a volunteer thing and you're in a hospital situation or setting. So you reach out and if they grab your hand, then I say, that's fine. Or if I felt like somebody was uncomfortable, I would never do that. But I am a person that would always, if they want a hug, I give them a hug. And Most people are just so happy just to have attention.

 But during COVID I did not touch anybody. One lady we met in the garage with masks on and once again, thinking outside the box because I had to be very, very careful. So whatever's lacking or the warmth of the visit can be mostly the attention and the listening.

Lot of people like hugs. So if they don't seem to mind it, I'm a big hugger. All I can say, I understand now with all the different regulations and all different things. And I always say a prayer before I go in to see people.

Barbara: It sounds to me like you open up an invitation and then you're very respectful based on the response either physically or with words.

I understand that you have a family legacy of volunteering in different capacities, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on how can people figure out what they might be interested in since there are so many different ways of serving.

Liz: I think a lot of times If, if you're open to serving others, even open to your faith. And a lot of times the holy spirit will guide you. You might not even know that that's something that you shouldn't be doing or I think other people are a example for others.

And I know my dad brought communion to a few elderly women when he was all there. And he would go and he really enjoyed it in. So I had that example of him doing it. I also think that we all have different strengths interests.

So if you're a person that loves music, get involved in music program. If you're a person that loves the Bible and get into the liturgy, part of assisting it at your service, if you are a person that likes to plan and organize, ask your priest or minister. And I be involved in helping out. I remember one of the women in our parish, she was the head of the bereavement committee. She's elderly now. And I go visit her and I try to always bring up to her how important it was for her, how happy God must've been, that she took all that time to land those beautiful meals for the consolation of the family. Cause sometimes she gets down- as you lose your independence, and I said, you were so busy doing all that.

And I said, that's the kind of person you are. But all those things that you did there, God's still happy about those things. And she would call people and you know, it was a big undertaking, but it was wonderful for the people after the funeral, they would go right over and have this beautiful meal.

And it took a lot of like, You might make brownies and you might make a salad. So a lot of people in the parish donated, but this woman was in charge of making sure everything was good to go. That is a gift. If you feel called, if you like food ministry, do you like food?

If you're like planning, that'd be great. Young people can get involved too. You will get an answer if you're willing to help.

Barbara: And sometimes they'll get a nudge, even if you don't think that this is the right time for you, but that does bring me to my last question, Liz. And that is, it sounds like you were able to find a balance because you have a job and you had mentioned that your younger child was going to college, but I want to just also be clear that it seems to me like there's seasons in life. And you talked about that God was appreciative of this other woman helping with the bereavement ministry. But at the same time, we know that we don't have to earn our salvation. It's a free gift, but then we give back in return. So I'm curious if you ever had seasons where you were able to maybe volunteer more or less? Did you always have the same schedule the whole time, or did you ever have a time where you needed to take a break or where you said I have a little more time to give her, a little less time to give?

Liz: When my children were here I was active in the church. My ministry was my family and I worked every day as a physical therapist. So  there's definitely seasons when you have everything in life is a balance.

So I think a lot of times, it depends on where you are. And also I think how stressful your job is. I always work Monday through Thursday and I had Fridays off. So Friday was my ministry day. So since the kids graduated from high school, that's when I really got active, I was not active on a weekly basis.

I mean, I went to mass. I wasn't visiting the sick or anything. Before that I would help do things that you know, maybe if somebody was sick, make them a meal or whatever, but I was not inactive ministry. So I think that there are definite seasons- I'm so glad you brought this up. So I really didn't start till 2011 doing the definite ministry. The only time I took the break was when COVID. Because I wasn't allowed to go to the nursing home. So I did take a break. I mean, that was a forced break, but then I just visited the people in my parish. I can do it safely. And I think younger people, you have to balance your lives.

And my children were very active in school and very active in sports. And I've worked full time, so I didn't really have a lot of extra time. But when you do get extra time, I think that's a time when we can take a break and say, you know, what could I have been doing for others?

And there are a lot of young people that work and raise families and get very involved, too. So I think it's just your own personality, your own balance in life, your ability to juggle things. My motto always was to do a few things well, instead of a lot of things, not so well. So that's how I like to handle things.

Some people seem to fit more in a day and able to do more, but I do feel that every day, who am I at work? I think through whatever profession you're called to God can definitely work, to assist your coworkers to assist if you are involved in, like you said, social work and hospital work.

Oh, plenty of opportunities to absolutely be kind and caring and go above and beyond. In Christ to others in smile and genuinely care about others. So I always felt that my ministry was to the clients and the children and the people that I met when I went to work every day.

Which can take a lot of energy if you put extra effort into it. But I think retirement time is a big time that you can really make it. Many years more, hopefully, when we’ll be interested or able to do things.

So I think retirement time's a really good time through the whole volunteering in what you can.

Barbara: you said kids can volunteer, different seasons of life for families all the way up through retirement.

I just was curious if you have any final tips or advice for anyone who's considering starting a volunteer ministry or being part of a volunteer ministry?

Liz: I think at first, pray on it and take some time to think about it. My feeling is, give it a try. And if you don't try, you won't know if it's something, if you don't feel comfortable with it. That's okay. God doesn't expect us to, he just wants us to try, and if you pick something and it's not working for you, there's no problems. Look into something else. It's my feeling is doing nothing shouldn't be an option. Trying is always an option and surprises will come your way.

Barbara: it sounds like both you and I have done different volunteer jobs over the years and some of them resonated more, and I was fine being a Sunday school teacher. I didn't have any problem with it, but now I do different things. And so do you, and that that's okay. And maybe the people might be thinking, no, no, don't quit. Don't do something different, but it's okay to have different seasons of participation and try new things. I completely agree with that.

Liz: Absolutely. And we're all going to be on that other end at some point. And I think about that a lot in that there are some people that are in nursing homes for 10 years. And so we just need to all work together and be aware of what other people are going through.

Take time out to really cherish everybody. The young though the middle aged and the elderly have a lot to offer.

Barbara: Thank you so much for your time and sharing your experiences with us today.

Liz: You're very welcome. I really enjoyed it.

Resources:

Luke 5:17-26

Luke 8 :43-48

Boundaries with Kris

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Barbara:  Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Kris Stashe, who was one of my faculty members at Wartburg theological seminary. And we've heard this before. I know. Most appropriate to call people with their title, the honors of their degrees, but the Warburg way is first names only. So welcome, Kris- how are things for you in Dubuque these days?

Kris: Things are going really well in Dubuque. The sun is shining. We are in the middle of summer, which makes things no less busy, but provides a different kind of room, which I enjoy. I like a change of rhythm every now and then.

Barbara: Great. I always think back to little kids think that they're school teachers just do nothing all summer. And that's the farthest from the truth, especially in academia and planning courses and summer events and well-deserved rest as well.

Kris: Yeah. We tried to squeeze our vacation in during those times. In between semesters since it doesn't really work well when teaching to take vacation in the middle of a semester.

Barbara: Exactly. Well, aside from being a faculty member at Wartburg, I wanted to let everyone know that Kris is a Kristian who identifies as Lutheran. And I love that. That's the first time I ever heard that phrase. The faith that Kris has held has always been in the air she breathes. From bedtime prayers to summer Bible camp, it was always there always expected and never questioned. It wasn't until she was living in another country during college, when she was asked for the first time, why do you spend 90 minutes each way to church on Sunday? And I would love it if you would like to let us know why, but just hold on just one second. Cause I've got a little bit more. Kris graduated from college with a degree in business, bought a Navy suit and a briefcase and was ready to interview for corporate jobs, when on a whim, she applied for a position to serve in Japan as a short-term missionary. She has felt called to ministry leadership.

Kris currently lives in Dubuque. She moved from the twin cities and aside from living in Denmark and Japan for a bit, she was born and raised and has lived in the Midwest her whole life. Kris’ dreams are more prayers. She prays for the health and wellbeing of people she loves and cares deeply about.

She used to have plans, but they would get disrupted and change whenever it was required. She dreams differently now, and she's more open to where the holy spirit guides or pushes her. So we're going to get to our Bible verse in a minute, Kris, but do you have any follow-up information for us about this 90 minutes to church each way, and maybe your time overseas as well?

Kris: Oh man, we could do a whole 40 minutes on just commuting to church. My junior year of college, I had a beautiful opportunity to study in Denmark and I didn't speak Danish, but I was very interested in the Danish culture. So I chose to live with a Danish family, but my Danish wasn't strong enough to be worshiping in that language. So I went to the English speaking church in the center of Copenhagen, which required a walk to the bus stop, a bus to the train station, a train into Copenhagen, and then another six blocks to the church or so, and that took about 90 minutes each way. And my family that I was living with just didn't understand why I would spend so much turning to get to a church and spend less than an hour.

Barbara: I suspect it nourished your soul.

Kris: It did. And you know, back then I didn't have the language to describe that craving. I had to be in community and I sought it out and I hadn't realized what an important role it had in my life up to that time. Cause it would have been very easy for me to say, Hey, I can wait until I get back home.

Barbara: That's right. That's really quite a chunk of time. Although I suspect also that the countryside was beautiful to look at while you were there. I've been to Denmark and I'm fortunate because I did my junior year abroad in Vienna, but I was already on the train system. So I didn't have to walk to the bus first to get to the train. It was easier for me to get to an English speaking service there.

Kris: Just the fact that I can live in a town outside of the city, on the far edges of a town and still make it anywhere with public transportation is just a huge gift.

Barbara: I was absolutely thrilled when you had mentioned Jeremiah chapter 29, because that's my favorite verse too.

And I've also heard sometimes people have different thoughts about this first. So I thought, you know what? This is great. Even though we didn't plan this podcast about leadership and boundaries and faith-based volunteering kind of things to be about this verse, let's start here, see where it goes and then take it from there.

I would love to read for everyone, Jeremiah chapter 29, verses 11 to 14 from the new international version: 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.[a] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

I would love to hear your thoughts and feelings on this first, Kris.

Kris: Oh boy, there's so many. Can I start with the story that verse started playing a more active role in my life? My husband and I have chosen to form our family through adoption and we have done foster parenting in and amongst the family formation and the family growing that has happened in our home. And at one point we had a child who had been placed for adoption in our home. And some things happened legally outside of our control and we felt like we were losing him.

And so that verse, I started praying when I went to bed at night, I went into his room and put my hand on his head and prayed that verse. And it was a way for me to kind of big my toes in the sand, if you will, to remember that, I believe in a God of hope and love and goodness. And it was a way for me to remind myself of that.

The God I prayed to was a God of the present as much as the God of the future. And now, because I prayed that verse over and over and over for many, many months, when somebody says, what's your favorite verse? I don't even really think about it anymore. Out of my mouth pops, Jeremiah 29 11, even though that happens such a long time ago, I think it's just part of my DNA these days.

Barbara: Thank you so much. And I know that some folks want to caution against a prosperity gospel, which my understanding of that is that we don't say, Hey, look at how great my life is. God must be, bestowing favor upon me, even if it's true that we do have blessings from God. But the opposite of that also, isn't true.

Oh, my life is in shambles. That must mean that God doesn't care about me. Do you have any other thoughts on that way of viewing this particular verse? God does have plans for us, but it's not always going to be easy or prosperous.

Kris: and we don't always know what they are and we may never know what they are.

But I think in praying that verse for me, it wasn't so much about determinism as much as it's just an openness to know that God is present and God is good and God is leading and I need to be open to possibilities. I need to be ready for the unexpected. I may never have answers definitively to any of my prayers, but I know my prayers are always heard.

And I know that through prayer, I opened myself up to God's presence in ways that I may not expect otherwise. I think that's what the first is for me, it's a posture of prayer. More than it is a guarantee.

Barbara: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I treasure this verse also. So I sometimes feel kind of defensive when I hear people sort of admonishing about the verse. And I don't know if this is a common thought, but I have participated in Bible studies where some authors feel that even though we are not the people currently in Babylon, which is the exile that's referenced in this verse, that in some ways, people of faith might be an exile even where they are now. Yes, our times are different, but in some ways, our times could be similar.

Kris: Well, and it talks about who we believe God is. What God is capable of in even our own limited understanding. And some days I just need to remind myself of that

Barbara: me too, all day, every day.

Kris: And it also reminds me that God creates for good. In that, even in the midst of when it seems like we're surrounded by evil. And that gives me hope.

Barbara: Thank you. And we'll see if we can incorporate that passage into the rest of our conversation, or there could be other verses that come up when we're talking about leadership and boundaries and faith-based environments, because what I'm really trying to do is cram an entire semester of graduate school into a half an hour conversation, which of course is ridiculous and utterly impossible.

But I really enjoyed the course that I took on leadership. And some of the content was familiar from my social work profession in terms of boundaries. But I have had experiences in the past and I know many people have before when we're talking about volunteering and giving of ourselves and being asked to give, and I've had other podcasts about Sabbath.

So how do we create a practice of loving God and loving our neighbor and taking care of ourselves in a way that honors God in our family and ourselves and our creation?

Kris: So what are we at 22 minutes now? I want to start with boundaries because I think too often people hear that word and what they think of is barriers and protective fields, which I can understand that. But when I use the word boundaries, I think of practices we have in place so that relationships can thrive. And I think boundaries differ depending on the nature of the relationship we have. Sometimes boundaries mean separation, whether permanent or temporary.

Sometimes boundaries provide opportunity for engagement. Sometimes boundaries help provide definition for the nature of a relationship. So the example I use in school is I have a different sets of boundaries with my students than I do with my husband or with my colleagues. And those boundaries are in place so that the nature of the relationship I have with my students can thrive in the way I'm called as their teacher. And the nature of my relationship with my husband can thrive as I'm called to be.  And it's not about prioritizing one over the other as much as it is helping to define so that our relationships can be flourishing as God created them to be.

Now, sometimes boundaries need to be in place for literally physical protection. Yes, emotional protection and all of the other kinds of spiritual protection. And those boundaries are going to be very different. And sometimes we need help to put those boundaries into place. Whether they are the legal profession legal services or friendships.

So boundaries are big and they're wide, but they help us thrive as individuals, but they also help us thrive as communities as they help us understand the nature of our relationships within those communities.

Barbara: I suspect that some people don't care for the word boundaries and others don't especially care to be on the receiving end of boundaries. And I'm wondering if there is a best practice or recommendation in terms of how can we approach this? In this case, faith-based manner- that we're setting boundaries and it's not just to be unkind, or people sometimes say, oh, you're just being rude or selfish- that there's some healthier ways to look at this topic.

Kris: sometimes we can set boundaries without ever even using the word. Sometimes boundaries are mutual and sometimes they're not. It's possible to be on the receiving end of a boundary without even knowing somebody's put a boundary in place.  And so whether somebody uses the word boundary or not, I think people need to understand what they are.

Ultimately more important than how we talk about them and having them in place is more important than whether or not you're comfortable with the word boundary.

Barbara: I'm thinking of just an ordinary person who might be listening, who might have volunteered in a faith based community for many years. And who might be wondering, how do I practice self care? In a way that will then allow me to keep volunteering and not just volunteer until I fall on my face or have a heart attack or something like that.

Kris: So volunteering is really a beautiful gift and the whole point of volunteering it's not just our own fulfillment, but really it's about how do we serve God through our neighbor?

But volunteering is one way we serve God. Or volunteering in a particular capacity is one way. We also serve God by our family relationships, our household relationships, our professional relationships. And I think it's important for people to understand that God calls us to many different ways of living out our vocation on earth and not just one way.

And so boundaries then help us define each of those. So that we can remain whole in our identity as a child of God and our identity, isn't grounded in just one of those particular relationships over and against all of the others. And for me being whole is understanding myself bigger than just a role as a teacher or a volunteer, or even as a mother, I'm more and my call to how I am a mother changes over time, depending on the age and needs of my children. And so the boundaries I set are very different with my 23 year old than they are with my seven-year-old. And so knowing that we're bigger than any one role or one title or one responsibility helps us understand what it means to take care of ourselves. I think it gives us a reason to take care of ourselves.

Barbara: I'm curious how you learned about this over the years. Obviously you have been in academia as a student and then as a faculty member, and I know you're doing research in faith-based leadership. So how can people figure this out?

Either just a regular person, trying to figure out how they create this in their own lives, or from a congregation wanting to not burn their people out.

Kris: I learned from many different kinds of sources. I learn through experience, but usually I learned more from bad experiences. Those tend to stick with me longer.

I've learned through trusted colleagues and mentors in speaking to them about how I processed certain situations. I learned through authors and books and reading. I started doing some work on boundaries during a sabbatical. My last sabbatical must've been seven years ago and I really wanted to see what Martin Luther had to say about it. So I just did some reading on that.

And so I think we need to see our teachers as multiple sources. And when we feel like we don't know what to do, we need to seek out those people we trust and respect. And have them help us as conversation partners. They might not know what to do, but they can ask some really good questions sometimes that help us process it and helps us step out of our own brains.

Sometimes what we really need is somebody who has no clue what's going on and just space trustworthy space to process.

Barbara: And when you use the word space that even made me think of space in my own life, because I had an experience where someone said, but it doesn't take that long to do this thing that I'm asking you to do.

And I felt like it was about to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back because it was already involved with so much. Emotionally maxed out as well and working and trying to get enough sleep. So it's true, the one thing didn't take that much time, but are we allowed to leave some space, some margins in our lives, in our schedules?

Kris: Well, and I'm just beginning to learn about emotional fields and emotional energy and emotional responsibilities. And so if somebody asks me to do something, it's usually more than just a task I can accomplish. I like to think about that task. I like to make sure I'm prepared for that task, and there comes a responsibility as well.

I think you're right. I don't think we take that into consideration when we say yes and no. And I think it's more than even just saying yes and no. Because too often, yes and no, come from just time, but saying yes and no is about more than just whether or not we have the time.

Barbara: at the risk of me sounding at the time, perhaps selfish, I felt like I was just protecting myself, not from a meltdown. I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but just from exhaustion and grumpiness. So maybe I sounded grumpy at the time, but it wouldn't have necessarily been a good service to God. And I felt like I was already volunteering in a number of other capacities.

Kris: here's an example in that situation, and this isn't applicable for every situation, but if somebody I really care about asks me to do something and I know I can't do it, I might say no. Or I might say, you know, that's something I really wish I could help you with, but now's not the right time. I wish I could say yes, but today I can't say yes to that. There's a way that we can say no, that honors the nature of the relationship, that doesn't sacrifice ourselves. But also says, you know, my heart wants to say yes. But right now, I can't say yes. And that's part of that is all going to depend on the nature of the relationship I have with the individual as well. Sometimes I'm in situations where I really don't care. So I'll just say, no, thank you. And that's not about a person, but just sometimes that's all the energy I have.

Barbara: now that I've just asked you a bunch of questions about setting boundaries and volunteering and things like that, sometimes on the other side of leadership, people are encouraged to delegate. And so delegating is how can I share these tasks, this whole ministry, this mission with other people?

And some of that is then inviting others to join in, to share in this delegating. And so that's almost the flip side. How can we delegate while at the same time honoring the boundaries that people might need to set? Because leadership, I believe, should be about delegating to a certain extent.

Kris: there's 1,001 scenarios that we could go in with that. But as I think about my responsibilities and the world of delegation, there are some times where I just need somebody to do something for me, but I need it done the way I would do it. Those are task driven. They're descriptive. And there are other times when I need to invite people- it could be a task. It could be a program. It could be an idea. So I'm going to use the word idea- into an idea where it's not so much me telling them what to do and them doing it, but me inviting them into a shared process of accomplishing something. Which is very different than me saying, I need you to do it. And could you do it this way? Sometimes we confuse the two. We think we're asking somebody to do something in a certain way, but the other person thinks we're inviting them into a conversation or they just might do it their way. And then we get into disappointment, frustration, and that we start to control things.

I'm just going to do it my way. I'm just going to do it from now on it's easier than me delegating because nobody ever does it my way. So those two situations require two different sets of boundaries and they require communication so that those shared boundaries are understood mutually.

If I use the word boundary in those scenarios, I think people would assume that I'm protecting myself from them or that there's a problem, when in fact I'm using the word boundary to help define a shared set of expectations, right? So that we can both accomplish what we need to accomplish and not get frustrated with each other.

And so sometimes a boundary clearly defined, it's just a form of communication. What do I expect from you? What do you expect from me? Sometimes those can be articulated other times.

Barbara: Is this a collaboration with some planning and discussion and timeframe boundaries, maybe even this is a long-term kind of visioning thing, or this is just a short term?

And then also, like you said, has it always been done this one way? And therefore we need to keep always doing it the same way or is there room for some creative thought? And I've even joked with people about, we can argue about how to correctly fold the bath towels or how to load the dishwasher.

Kris: I should say when my 13 year old empties the dishwasher, puts things away, but I want them to do it my way. I need to stand there and make sure he puts things in the right places if I want it done. And it's a task that I've delegated. I've got to make sure he does it to the best of his ability, but if the spoons are in the wrong place, Spoons are in the wrong drawer.

Barbara: So how can we let go and just have some grace about it? And if it's just a matter of, Nope, nobody else can do it as well as I can? Okay. Then you're probably going to be pretty tired from doing it all yourself.

Kris: for some people, the dishwasher emptying the dishwasher and this is not me. It's a form of a spiritual practice. It's a form of relaxation. I am a strange one. I love to fold towels. I love to fold clean laundry. In some respects, folding clean laundry is spiritual. It fills me with gratitude for water, for soap, that I don't have to leave the house. The fact that I have family members for whom I get to fold their clothes.

I know I'm strange. And oh, that's a wonderful thing. What a weirdo, but for me, it's a spiritual practice. And so that's not a job I delegate ever.

My family can empty the dishwasher every day.

Barbara: I'm wondering what I haven't asked yet? That might be on your mind in terms of leadership or boundaries or self-care that may be applicable and face situations, but doesn't necessarily have to be.

Kris: one thing we haven't talked about as much is about the role of the holy spirit. And it's not so much that I have a lecture or a sermon to prepare here for, but I think when it comes to human relationships, we need to understand that the space that happens in relationships and in community is first and foremost centered in who Christ is, and what God is up to in those relationships and those entities.

I'm not one who believes just pray and it'll be fixed. I do believe that our attention to prayer draws us in to the presence of God in different ways. And sometimes when we're drawn into the presence of God, it helps us either see things differently, notice different ways of approaching it.

Maybe opens our eyes to other conversation partners or trustworthy spaces to process. And that's something that I'm working on in my head. Right. And as I think back to my opening story about praying Jeremiah 29:11. I think that's what was happening. And I didn't even realize it. Maybe it wasn't even so much the words that I was praying as much as it was the fact that I was praying, acknowledging God's presence in this relationship, this very vulnerable relationship I have with my child at that time.

And maybe that's what carried me through. Maybe I could have been praying anything. And it's not that I was crying that opened up my heart and my mind to possibly even possibilities that would disappoint me.

Barbara: And I really want to encourage people to plan for some surprises, because I would prefer to pray for clear discernment, like a neon sign with an arrow, and that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it's the still small voice. Just, how do you figure this stuff out? What if you have five fantastic opportunities, but that might be too much, how do you pick?

I was part of a group one time that had focus areas of what do I need to be paying attention to in my life? And then the leader suggested that we have one focus area for unknown, and I called it the holy spirit. I drew a little picture of a flame as my symbol for that- you could call it magic or mystery or fate or whatever, any kind of word, whatever you feel. But for me, no doubt, it was the holy spirit. And let me tell you, I got holy spirited. This was when I was applying to Wartburg in 2019 and I didn't even know I was applying to Warburg.

I didn't know I was going to be going and we moved and it's like, whoa, when you invite in the holy spirit, just be aware. I'm not saying that everybody else is going to be moving across an ocean and going to seminaries if they do that, but the answers could be pretty unexpected and they could also be exactly what you said as well.

I thought that this was going to happen and it's not happening. Or this is falling apart , and that's okay, too.

Kris: that goes back to that comment, what dreams do I have? And I don't have dreams so much as prayers. Cause I think of dreams as concrete. And I have goals for my life.

I have dreams for my life, but I also have an openness to, okay, God, I'm getting this direction. I'm open to whatever you need me to head in, but I couldn't do that alone. My husband and I spend a lot of time talking about that and just being okay. We don't know what tomorrow will look like, but we'll be there and we'll show up.

And that's kind of what my prayers are. Quite often I'll show up. I'm just going to trust that God, you're going to be there with me and it's going to be for good. And even though I don't know what that looks like, I'll show up.

Barbara: One of my questions I like to ask is whose voice is missing? And I'm wondering if you've observed cultural differences, or I don't want to use the word personality really, but even your areas of the Midwest, say Denmark, Japan, around this idea of boundaries and leadership and volunteering in a church based setting. Are there some ways that we can be more aware of and understanding of each other and not just take for granted everybody's going to think the way I think?

Kris: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, understanding boundaries is every much as a cultural issue, a language issue, a personal experience issue- are there voices missing? The only voice I have is my voice and my experience. Every voice is missing from that.

And so I that's part of why I think we have a responsibility to find a conversation partners to help us think outside of our own perspective, to read authors on the topic from other experiences, other cultures. I think that's a given, Barbara, otherwise I'll always only be stuck in my own head.

And I have to be ready to learn because I've taught boundaries in a class and had students come up to me sometimes a little upset or hurt cause their interpretation of my use of the word boundaries or the examples I've used have been not helpful for them. And I am grateful for those students because it helps me learn and it helps me realize that sometimes language I use or stories I share aren’t always helpful. And I'm always a student. I will always be a student and I think students teach me more than any other out there.

Barbara: So, and there's plenty of examples to be learned about just general cultural differences with boundaries, even when it comes to personal space or eye contact or physical touch. And granted we've just had COVID, but in terms of even do we stand in line and kind of neat and orderly, or do we all kind of smush our way around? So there are so many examples.

And I also want to name that I may be talking about things that sound like white privilege when I'm saying Sabbath time. Having some space around my schedule and where I know that many people are just working 24 hours a day and just always giving, giving, giving. So not to not to say that one or the other is better or worse.

Kris: Absolutely. Well, even different cultures have different expectations for somebody who's called a grandmother or a teacher or a pastor. And too often we enter into those relationships with assumptions that we need to break open.

Barbara: Are there any places that you can think of in the Bible that talk about either boundaries or leadership or, I'm sure the word volunteering isn't in there explicitly, but just in terms of any further guidance or thoughts for folks today around this topic?

Kris: a couple years ago I wrote an article about boundaries called vocation and I used Moses call story as kind of a scaffolded for that. I and that's in a book called Sustaining Grace. But just a few weeks ago, I was at a conference, an international research consortium on zoom. And we dwelled in the word, which is a form of Lectio Divina.

At the end of Mark one where Jesus is leaving the temple, goes to a house, cures the mother-in-law, everybody hears about it and comes to be there. And then the next morning Jesus gets up. And I have never focused on this person till a couple of weeks ago. So this is something that I'm still playing with and, and listening to it. Goes out to pray.

Then Jesus, the disciples find him and say, Hey, we've been looking everywhere for you. Everybody wants you. They want Jesus to heal them. And then cast out demons- and Jesus doesn't say no, wait, leave me alone. Jesus doesn't say, okay, I'm coming. Let's go where everybody needs. Jesus says let's continue on with the work that I'm called to do.

Let's move on to the next town. So Jesus stays focused. Jesus engages in spiritual practices. He sets up boundaries for what he can and can't do at that particular time. At that particular place, boundaries are very specific to time and place. And he carries on with what God calls him to do. And I love that. It's a passage that I need to spend more time in.

Barbara: Great. Thank you so much for your time today.

Kris: Thank you, Barbara. It's been a delightful conversation.

Resources:

Jeremiah 29:11-14

Sustaining Grace by Hagley, Rohrer & Gehrling (editors)

Mark 1:35

Dear You

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

I recently was speaking with a friend and she shared some kind words with me and some scripture, and I thought, you know, I wish that she could talk to everybody just the way she talked to me.

So I decided to write a letter to each of you mirroring part of what she said to me during our phone call. And some of that includes Bible passages and general encouragement and some information about Bible studies. So let me share a letter out loud to each of you:

Dear You. I talked with a friend on the phone today and she reminded me that God is the stability I needed in my life. Even when earthly things are uncertain.

What if prayers are being answered in an unexpected way? What if something good can come from turmoil and change?

Another friend told me about a Bible study she's currently taking about the 23rd Psalm. The study was written by Jennifer Rothschild. You're probably familiar with Psalm 23. So I'm going to share just verse four with you in a few different translations, starting with the king James version. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: For thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

I want to share some information with you from a Bible commentary, the Africa Bible commentary. The general editor is Tokunboh Adeyemo. And the chapter on Psalms was written by Cyril Okorocha. It was published in 2006 by Zondervan Academic in Nairobi, Kenya. Here is the commentary about this verse. “The valley of the shadow of death may have been a place of danger from wild animals, or may have been a steep valley through which the flock had to clamber when moving from one set of pastures to another.

The Shepherd's rod and staff were the tools used to bring back a string animal or to defend the flock against wild animals. Psalm 23 limits the role of the shepherd to providing protection and provision. But Jesus, the good shepherd goes further. He is even prepared to lay down his life for the sheep.” And this is in the gospel of John chapter 10 verse 11.

My friend sent me one quote from the Jennifer Roth child study, which is, “valley times don't last but valiant women do.” I know there is much more to this study than just that one sentence, but I believe it's intended to encourage when you feel like you are in a stressful valley. How can we remember to tap into the resources we already have?

You are always encouraged to pray as you are able. I've mentioned another study before called Stepping Up by Beth Moore, which is about the Psalms of Ascent. We are reminded to cry out to God from the depths of our souls, with or without words. Even three years later, when I look back on what I wrote in that study workbook, I'm reminded of what I learned, and comforted by the teachings. This study explains that we can bring our true feelings to God. In Psalm 1 42 verses one and two in the message version, it says “I cry out loudly to God, loudly I plead with God for mercy. I spill out all my complaints before him and spell out my troubles in detail.”

After completing this chapter in the study, our group decided that our motto would be “wrecks are welcome here.” By that we meant that we can be honest with each other about our struggles. We don't need to pretend to be perfect and we can pray for each other when we share our needs, struggling and hopes.

Dear you, thank you for asking others to pray for you. It can be as detailed or vague as you like. One group I'm in has a code word for a deeply personal and painful situation. It's called an unspoken prayer request. Sometimes you want to share a need, but you don't want unsolicited advice about the situation or even judgment about your part in the situation.

Another study author gave a helpful recommendation in a recent book and video series titled Forgiving what you can't Forget. The author, Lysa TerKeurst, explained two different ways of interpreting the Bible passage about not letting the sun go down on our anger. In Ephesians chapter four, verse 26 in the new international version we are told, “do not let the sun go down while you are still angry.” I laughed over and appreciated the study author’s explanation that this does not mean we are to talk at the person we're an angry with until they come around to our point of view.

Instead, can we prayerfully turn over our anger and our needs to God. And obviously the whole point of the study is to talk about forgiveness, which I would highly recommend that study also. And she included a really nice quote in the book that's attributed to Martin Luther. He is reported to have said or written, “I have held many things in my hands and I have lost them all, but whatever I have placed in God's hands that I still possess.”

Dear you, I offer you another way to spend time with God. There's a Latin phrase that teaches us a way to hear and receive God's word. The phrase is Lectio Divina. You are invited to pause and let the words from our verse today wash over you. Check in if one particular word or phrase comes to your attention.

After I read the verse, I'm going to play a short piece of music. So you can meditate on the word or phrase that may have jumped out at you, or just pray in general. If we were sitting together after this quiet time individually, we could share with each other what's the word that kind of came to my attention from this first?

And why is it important? Why is it meaningful? So you're welcome to either journal it in writing or just ponder it in your heart. I'm going to read Psalm 23 verse four from the message, and that will be followed by a one minute and 14, second music clip. “Even when the way goes through death valley, I'm not afraid when you walk at my side. Your trusty Shepherd's crook makes me feel secure.”

I've been familiar with the king James version of this verse for many, many years. And although I tend to prefer more contemporary translations or interpretations, I really liked the 23rd Psalm in the king James version- in this particular translation, I really like the phrase “For thou art with me.” I speak German and conversational Spanish. And in those two languages, there are different words used when you're talking to a person in authority or a person you respect and someone who's a friend or a peer. And to me, this passage, when I see the word “thou”, that means honoring God in a special way. For example, in German, when you speak with someone who is either older than you, or in a position of respect or someone that you've just met, you say “SIE.” And if you're just talking to your friend or your sibling or a classmate or something like that, you say “du,” and the same in Spanish with “usted” and “th”, it's also in French with “vous” and probably other languages that I don't have at my fingertips.

And to me, this biblical language is very honoring of God. Although in the message version, I'm also really grateful for the word you, because that to me brings a sense of closeness with God, but I still like the “for thou art with me,” because it reminds me that even when I'm wondering, where is God in all of this, we are reassured that God is with us. God is with you. Even when we're not necessarily aware of it on a sensory level.

In the message version. I really resonate with the word trusty- your trusty Shepherd's crook, because in other verses of the Bible, sometimes a rod is used for punishment. And the commentary mentioned that briefly, the purpose of the Shepherd's rod was to fend off wild animals that were trying to attack the sheep.

So that's a good thing, not in terms of it's a punitive tool for humans to use on each other. So the word trusty, in this interpretation helps me to feel that the shepherd or God or Jesus, however you want to interpret this right now in your own life, is there as a helpful tool, not to cause harm unless it's to fend off the enemy.

So the shepherd is equipped with tools for my benefit. The commentary references that the rod and the staff could be used to bring back a straying animal, which of course is great. If you're a shepherd and you have some sheep who are straying.

However, if I'm straying, I might not always be too excited about having the rod or the staff nearby. And we have talked about that in previous episodes around pruning and our own behavior and our own life.

Finally, I'm going to read our verse one last time and you are invited to check in if a different word or phrase comes to your attention. As the Lord's prayer is sung, you are invited to meditate on the word or phrase that may have jumped out to you, or just to pray about gratitude for God and your needs as well as the needs of the world.

Here is verse four from the new international version. “Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.”

In the NIV version, I really appreciate the word comfort. And the Lectio Davinas that I have participated in, in the past, have not used three different translations. It's just something that I really enjoy. So often, if you hear the same passage with the exact same words, several times, you almost know what's coming with the words. And then it's interesting to see if something is brought to your attention or stirs you in a new way, even when it's the same word. So it's almost easier when it's three different sets of words.

I really appreciated the word comfort because there are times in our lives when we feel like we're just wondering what's going on? What is this transition? All three verses reference either the shadow of death, or death valley, or the darkest valley. So how can we feel God's comfort during those times when we either don't know what's going on, or maybe we know exactly what's going on in it, and it's a bad situation, it's a stressful situation?

So knowing that there are trusty tools and that God comforts us, that there is comfort, even if we might be feeling uncertain or afraid. How can I trust that God is providing, even when things are either uncomfortable or when I'm just not feeling any comfort at all? And then to circle around again, to the beginning, when I asked about prayers being answered, sometimes it's really neat when you pray for what you want. As the Psalms of ascent welcome us to pray our deepest prayers. Even if they're just groans, we can't put it into words, but to tell God what it is, the desires of our hearts. And then elsewhere in the Bible, we are really encouraged to align our desires with God's desires. In terms of what it is that we're asking for. So am I praying for God's will to be done and also for my life to be in alignment?

Either a plan that I understand, or just my understanding of God in general from the Bible. And then sometimes prayers are answered in unexpected ways. And for me that can bring up anxiety because I would rather have a plan and know what it is. And this is where the whole conversation started in the first place where my friend said, God is the stability in my life.

And I'm really comfortable in my routines and knowing what's going to happen next, but life isn't always like that. By any means. And then sometimes when we're in a routine, then it starts to feel like a rut and then we would wish for some excitement. So everybody feels differently about the predictability of their lives.

So dear you, I offer encouragement that prayers can be answered in different timeframes, in different ways than we ever imagined. Even if it's uncomfortable, even if it feels like the valley of the shadow of death at times.

And we're not promised an easy life all the time. I honor that. And yet I also honor that I wish to support our planet and it's inhabitants. To really advocate for sustainability and for fair and equal treatment for reparation beyond the role of just being a sheep, even though other places in the Bible do call people sheep.

So dear you, I invite you to sit with the 23rd Psalm in your Bible or in an online app, and you can look at different translations. If that's of interest to you, you can do a lectio Divina on your own and just read a passage. It can be more than one verse long, but it also can help for it to be a manageable piece of scripture. So not necessarily a whole chapter.

And you don't have to have music in the background either, but if that's something you enjoy, read the verse either out loud or just on paper. If you speak multiple languages, read it in different languages. And then just sit and be at peace. The music that I played today was less than two minutes, but typically when I've done a lectio Divina in a group setting, It could be two or three or even five minutes, that's up to the group leader or the group to decide.

So you really have time to ponder the word or the phrase and what it means to you and how you're understanding it. And it's also really precious to be able to share that with a group of people. This is what I heard, and this is what it means to me. And this is what I heard. And then do it again. Maybe with the same translation, maybe with a different translation.

There's also various apps where you can listen to someone else read a portion of scripture. If that might help you to hear someone else's words and to journal about it. If you wish to sing about it, to dance about it, to make art around this verse or around the music. And actually there are many beautiful sung versions of the 23rd Psalm as well.

I would love to give credit for all of the music in this podcast. The introductory flute music is played by Maryanne Gould . The piano piece was composed and played by Joanne Hines. And you can hear more of her piano playing in a different episode about music.

The Lord's prayer was composed, played and sung by Eric Haitz and our weekly prayers are written and read by Stephanie Hittle.

Thank you for taking your time to be in a space with God, with God's word and with other people who are putting one foot in front of another and praying for discernment in the world, in their lives and for wisdom around making decisions and trying to understand to the best that we can. And I guess that's another question that I should be honest about facing- is it true that I always need to understand what's happening in my life? Because I sure would like to know what's happening in my life.

I would like to understand and to know what's coming next, but when I ask it that way, yeah, I would like to know what's next. It's not really true that I need to know what's next. I want to know what's next, but that's not a promise, either. So that's my own sense of control, sense of anxiety of just wanting to have that in place in my life.

So where is there room for me to trust God around the future at the same time that I'm using the gifts and talents that God has given me to do my best in my life to serve others, to have a job and things like that? But to know that there are things going on that I don't know about, and some of them are great and some of them might not be great, but that each day is a new day.

And there's plenty of that in the Bible too. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it. Even if I'm not particularly feeling like rejoicing, this is what friends are for. So I would encourage you to reach out as you are able, as you are willing, with specific prayer requests to people that you trust, or if you have a community where you are able to introduce the concept of an unspoken prayer requests.

Or to just say, I have an unspoken prayer requests, and hopefully that will be honored. It's tremendously comforting to know that people are praying for your situation. So feel free to share comments, thoughts, and questions on the podcast website, or on the Facebook page for the podcast, which is 40 minutes of faith.

Resources:

Psalm 23

John 10:11

Africa Bible Commentary : A One-Volume Commentary Written by 70 African Scholars. Nairobi, Kenya: Zondervan Academic, 2006. general editor, Tokunboh Adeyemo

Stepping Up by Beth Moore

Forgiving What You Can’t Forget by Lysa TerKeurst

Psalm 23 by Jennifer Rothschild

Grace with Patrick

Barbara:  Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Patrick Linell, and the topic is grace. Pat holds a MA in theology from Columbia international university and served as a pastor at Bay area community church for 12 years. Welcome, Pat. How are things for you and your family in Maryland?

Patrick: things today are pretty good. I had some business outside the house this morning and when I got home, I asked Kristin how the morning went with the kids. And she said everybody got to the school on time. Four kids in elementary and in middle school. And so there is a flurry of activity just about every day.

Barbara: I bet. Well, today we have a Bible passage from Matthew chapter six, and if you're following along in your Bible, it's in the new Testament. So the second half of the Bible past the halfway Mark, and I am just going to be reading verses one through four of the NIV.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets to be honored by others. Truly, I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing so that you're giving maybe in secret. Then your father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

So Pat, we're going to be talking about grace and giving and a whole bunch of different things today. But I'm thinking about trying something new with this podcast. We're coming up on the one-year birthday of the podcast. And I'm wondering if you would be comfortable sharing a little bit of your faith journey? How did things go for you from your childhood up through becoming a pastor or really anything else that you're comfortable sharing as an example to others, that there's so many different ways of our spiritual journeys in our lives?

Patrick: I definitely did not see the pastor thing coming. I can tell you that. Although I grew up in, what many would consider a loving, wholesome church going family. I grew up going to an Episcopal church in the inner city of Baltimore and we didn't live in the inner city of Baltimore. We kind of drove in every Sunday. And my family was very faithful to that small church.

And those years really formed a discipline for me, a steady diet of these spiritual seeds. But like a lot of people who grew up in church, when I hit the end of high school and into college, I sort of just let the pleasures of the world takeover and supersede my faith walk. And so if there was a party I'd rather party, and if there's bad things to do, I'd rather do the bad things, than kind of walk that narrow and straight road, that seemed to be the way of Jesus.

But what happened was towards the end of college, I was dating my girlfriend, Kristin, who now by God's grace has become my wife. We got invited to a small group Bible study, and I had never experienced that kind of thing before. I went to church, I didn't really bring church home a whole lot.

But that little Bible study was very eye-opening. I saw for the first time, people taking the scripture seriously, they're taking Jesus seriously. They were doing well in life, in a lot of ways better than I was doing. And for Kristin, who also had a pretty religious upbringing, she was really getting to see Jesus in a new and fresh way on her own with her own eyes in the Bible.

And that was life-changing. So that small group led to me turning down a job in corporate America and instead doing a pastoral internship at my church. And that's where I got to do seminary. And I loved what I was learning. And I was seeing people start to grow and start to investigate their faith and all that was very exciting.

And that led to a pretty long run in a vocational ministry setting. I then got hired on after that internship. And I worked at the church for about 12 years just up until about 2019, where we started a new cross the country church adventure that we're on now. But that was my journey.

It was not something I planned or intended to do, but when you start to see. God's love personally for you coming alive. As you're learning the Bible, it can really change everything. And in my case, it really did.

Barbara: Thank you so much for sharing that. There's sometimes surprise turns or messages. And as I was preparing for this interview today, I wanted to check in with you. You said that people have been spiritually assembled for heavenly purposes, and that really resonated with me because I wonder if most people are aware of that, that we've been spiritually assembled for heavenly purposes. How does that look in everyday life from your perspective?

Patrick: I think a lot of people kind of sleep-walk a little bit through life. We put one foot in front of the other. We need to pay our bills. We want to have security. We want to have a job. We want to find the right relationship. We want our kids to do well. And we don't want the car to break down and it's kind of like repeat. We're on a repeat cycle, but on one level we have very much been created for a higher heavenly purpose. And I would even contend that our ultimate purpose here on planet earth, and this is true, whether you're just starting out your faith journey or you've been walking your faith journey for a while, is that we've been created to walk with our creator, and that's a pretty high up and heavenly purpose there.

But there's another layer there where we actually see specifically, when you look into the new Testament, I know we'll probably look at Matthew six here in a bit, but there's another place where the apostle Paul says that we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10). And so there's this other idea that once we know who God is, once we're filled with his love, once we can start to see him in the real things in our everyday life, then we realized, wow, we also have good, good things to do that he intense for us to do that. He has prepared for us to walk in almost like divine appointments. And I think that can very much be missed in the Christian world, because I can get used to going to church and I can even get used to reading my Bible.

But when I step out of the door on Monday, Am I also mindful that God might have some real, no kidding, awesome things for me to accomplish as his workmanship? And I think that part gets a little lost, but that's a pretty exciting proposition to think that we have amazing purposes, and heavenly ones to fulfill.

Barbara: I completely agree with you because I knew that I wanted to be a social worker. I would even go so far as to say it was a calling right from junior high. There was just no doubt in my mind about it. And that did happen, but most jobs, people think of as just secular in nature, like, what does this job, what does my boss, what does this nine to five or whatever you're doing have to do with God?

But what we're talking about now is that they're completely intertwined. Ourselves are not just, if we happen to go to a worship service, Monday morning, what are we doing? And our Bible verse talks about giving, but not for the accolades, not for the praise. So I'm curious about the phrase  “random act of kindness.”

What's the difference between just a random act of kindness that anybody can do with this concept of an intentional act of love, motivated by Jesus that we're taking from our Bible verse?

Patrick: I think everybody kind of likes the idea of random acts of kindness and kindness in general. And I am too. As created in the image of God, we should be outgoing and kind, and these things should be coming out. But when you follow Jesus and he tells you very clearly to love your neighbor. He tells you clearly to put other people's needs and interests ahead of your own, not to seek your own interests.

And he kind of says that in a lot of different places, in a variety of ways. When we decide we are going to obey that calling, that is not random at all. And so when you go out of your way, out of the normal to surprise someone, to bless someone to brighten someone's day, intentionally on one hand, you are simply taking Jesus seriously, you're obeying his command.

And there's nothing random about the commands of Jesus, because I contend that he knows how life best works, that the things he has to say, when we do those things, our life actually works a lot better, even though it might seem counter-cultural. So there doesn't seem to be anything random about just doing what Jesus tells us to do, but it can be scary and it can be difficult.

And you brought up the Matthew six passage. And what's interesting about this passage on one hand, we know that God has good works, that he's prepared in advance for us to walk in. And we also know that he's called us the light of the world and we're to let our light shine before men so that they would give glory to our father in heaven.

But I think in Matthew six, we see a particular warning and I think he's trying to speak to our hearts because in this context, he's sort of calling out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. So the Pharisees seemed to be doing some good things on the outside. They were giving, or perhaps they were even fasting or doing important things at the temple, but then they were standing out and what was important to the Pharisees was that all that was seen.

And so I think what Jesus is saying is may your heart beat pure. As you love your neighbor, let that be the driving intention. Let that be the motivation of listening to me of loving that person of pointing them to Christ, of shining some light in their day. And if that's your heart's motivation, I think we're okay. But if the only reason we're doing these good works is so that we perhaps look better or people would think were important or significant, then I think Jesus is saying, that's not why we do this. And so I think he's really trying to call out our heart. Where is our heart? Do we really have that unconditional, no strings attached love for our neighbor? And that's why we're stepping out in these intentional acts of love, or is there something in it for us? And that's a pretty hard question that I think everybody probably needs ask themselves.

Barbara: sometimes when we do things to bless another person, it ends up blessing us, even though we certainly didn't have that as the end goal.

But sometimes I especially think of donations where you can have your name right put somewhere, in the back of the annual report, but sometimes it's on a brick or on the wall or on the front of a building or something like that. And that's probably more detailed than we need today, but just the whole concept of it's okay to give things anonymously with no recognition whatsoever cause that's between you and God.

Patrick: It is. And there is a joy that follows the obedience of going above and beyond in loving someone and giving that grace offering that gift. In a lot of ways it's because we are made for it.

Imagine this- play with the metaphor. How does a minivan feel when it's packed with six kids and a dog that's long outliving its life expectancy and a mattress on the roof and a trailer behind? If you could ask that minivan how it felt, that minivan felt great because it's fulfilling its intended purpose.

And I think it's like that with us, as followers of Christ, as his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. When we get to walk in those, it feels good because we were made for this.

Barbara: And I especially appreciate that you mentioned earlier, it might feel a little scary sometimes or nerve wracking, or should I do this?

And you also coined a phrase that I am especially grateful for because every time I upload a podcast episode, I have to check a language box. Is the content essentially clean and for Bible study podcast, really, it's no problem to have clean content. But I wonder if you coined the phrase half Isaac as a polite, clean way of referencing another expression that is very commonly used that we're not going to use right now.

So when we give sometimes is it easy to say, well, I can just give this much and just to let you know the episode right before this one is about setting boundaries and that sometimes it's okay. God has a best yes for us. And we don't have to say yes to everything. So I don't mean to be talking out of both sides of our mouth, but if we're giving wholeheartedly, are we giving sometimes from a place of fear, a half Isaac giving and how do we sort of discern the wonderful opportunities of loving our neighbor and obeying God's will towards that. Versus sometimes there's a place of fear or uncertainty and,  then sometimes God's way happens anyway, despite our very best efforts to not quite go the whole mile. What are your thoughts around half Isaac giving?

Patrick: Giving or making any investment in your neighbor and that's a pretty broad category, so that could be, well, I might cut my neighbor's grass. That's going to take an hour. I might bring them dinner. That's going to take some supplies and some curating that, and going over any investment that we're going to make, particularly when it comes to loving them because Jesus told us to love them, it's stepping out of our comfort zone. Because I'm pretty introverted. I'm good behind a microphone or on stage, but in real life, I tend to avoid people. Like I have my head down in my phone, nobody mess with me. And so for me to get out of my shell, especially because of Jesus and in a world that doesn't want to talk about religion and doesn't want Bibles beat over their head and all of that, that can be such a hard step of faith to take.

So I think that's a common and shared experience for anybody trying to take Jesus seriously. Wow. This is scary. Even something small. I mean, let's table the big giving that I might half- Isaac, but even something small can be so difficult. And a couple of things practically in the moment.

I think number one, we can look to Jesus and ask, when Jesus was giving his ultimate gift of his very life, and he was having a hard time stepping into that, what did he do? Well, right there in the garden of Gethsemane on the night he was betrayed, before he was taken to trial and then led out to Calvary, he prayed. And he's talking to his disciples obviously, and by extension us, but he says, stay awake, stay alert and watch, pray with me. But then the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. And that could mean like we can intend to love our neighbor and intend to do something great for them and give them a surprise and gift or intentional act of love.

But I start feeling myself, get afraid. And so Jesus prayed. And number one, we can avail ourselves to prayer like Jesus, father help me to carry out this mission, but not my will, but yours be done. And then Jesus was strengthened. And I think we can pray when we start thinking about the craziness of getting outside of our comfort zone, but then also we can look into the scriptures and see these amazing promises that get activated when we take a step of faith. Sometimes we want to have all the assurances that it's going to be okay, that this thing is going to work out. And then I'm going to go ahead and do it. But faith isn't like that. No, faith says I need to take a step because the Lord has laid this on my heart and I've had this burden that it's the right thing to do.

And only after I take that faith step, am I going to see how God is going to provide. You brought up half Isaac, and that's a reference to the old Testament when Abraham was tested to bring the son of the promise and to offer him as a sacrifice, like that's a crazy account.

Just think about the most important thing ever in your life. And then God says, I want you to get rid of it. It's like, Whoa, Whoa, wait a minute. But we didn't see Abraham go halfsies. Like he didn't put half Isaac's leg or just offer up the arms. He fully put Isaac up there. And that spoke to the nature of faith. A faith step is this whole-hearted and full and complete surrender that the Lord is going to provide. Somehow, he's going to take care of the faith step and what enabled Abraham, and I'm going to connect the dots here, but what enabled Abraham to take that step of faith was that he was trusting in a promise because in the chapter prior to that Genesis 22, in Genesis 21, Abraham was told that Isaac was going to have children. So somehow, some supernatural way, Abraham could be fully obedient, not offering half Isaac, but then trust that God's promise will somehow take care of what was completely unforeseen. And that's the same thing for us. And we have promises when it comes to stepping out and loving people and carrying out our faith missions. We're told that Jesus is with us always, and that's an amazing promise. We're told that we are mighty, not because we're big and important and special, but because we're a tool in his hand. And so many different ways that the scriptures encourage us to take steps of faith.

So all that to say, Barbara, that in the face of fear, of taking a step of faith of love, neighbor, whether bigg or small. Those fears can be satisfied with the perfect love that cast out fear, and that's found in your ability to pray for strength right in the moment, and also to turn to the promises of God and trust those. And then step out in your faith adventure.

Barbara: now is the time that it makes sense to me to dig a little bit into this concept of grace because I'm Lutheran. So I have lots of background and understanding that we are not attempting to earn our salvation by doing these good deeds. And that's part of the Matthew six passage that we're not looking to publicly say, see how good I am. God is rewarding me. In fact, really the opposite. So I just wanted to check in with you about grace, and how grace is related to us doing specific acts to show love to neighbors.

Patrick: Well, it's hard to give something you don't have. And it can be difficult to naturally want to love and lavish and bless and forgive and enjoy your neighbor if you first aren't filled with that. And I think what you had mentioned, when you open the pages of scripture, you realize that, well, I didn't earn this amazing love. I didn't merit God sending Jesus to the cross to die for me.

In fact, I'm told that while I was still sinners and enemies with God that Jesus did this thing for me. And then it's like, Whoa, are you kidding me? The creator of the universe, the one who spoke all of this into existence and sustains it with his power also cares deeply and personally about me? And that gift is amazing. And we have the song amazing grace. That's why we sing amazing grace because it's pretty mind blowing and amazing to think that this all powerful creator also is personal and that he's led out with his kindness. And it's that kindness that has led me to repentance. And now when my heart can be filled of the things that he says about me, that in Christ I'm adopted and chosen and redeemed and forgiven and sealed, and I've been given wisdom and I'm an heir and all these amazing things that we learned in the scriptures that becomes my supernatural fuel supply. When I go outside and I see my next-door neighbor, who I'd rather not talk to, but then I remember that I've been so graciously loved that I can probably do something awesome for that person. And just like you said, we don't want to confuse it. We're not doing awesome things to make God think we're awesome. And then he'll let us into his heaven. No, it's the reverse. GOD is awesome. He's accomplished things on our behalf and now we're set free to be awesome and point people to him. And so it's a whole different kind of arrangement, but I think we really need to understand grace and our need for grace before we can really start giving it away with people we see and rub shoulders with every single day.

Barbara: That's been a theme that I've talked about with lots of different people over the year of many episodes. And I made an assumption that probably most people who listen to this podcast or who watched the video on YouTube probably have some sort of a faith-based background. And it really came to me before we started talking today that that might not be true. What if someone's listening, who is isn't part of a church group and probably never was? Because I also know there's people who kind of start going to churches and then they stopped going to churches for a variety of different reasons. What if there's someone that this is really new information? Because anybody can do nice things for somebody.

But what we're talking about is something a little bit different. We're not just talking about anybody doing something nice for anybody else. We're talking about there's a bigger reason for this. And I will be including a bunch of resources on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com, including the link to a video that you created to really talk to people about what do you do?

This is not something I think that's out there a lot. If you're in church, the clergy person might say, please come to the front of the church. We'll pray for you. If you're feeling called to walk with Jesus, but you presented this information really well in a video. And I'm wondering if you could take a minute to kind of explain if someone isn't part of a faith community and is really curious about what does this all mean?

How do I get involved with this stuff? What are the requirements? Cause I know there's no checklist- you and I both know that. So I'm kind of setting the question up, but what's involved if you want to be part of this Christian community that we're talking about?

Patrick: I would say for anybody listening right now that as Barbara had just mentioned, and you're kind of just investigating faith or not a part of a faith community, or even unsure. I would go as far as to say as this is no accident that you're listening to this today. I really think that you're here for a reason.

And I'll just take a minute and speak to that. Just off the cuff, off the heart. Number one, you're here on planet earth for a reason, you have a purpose. There is a particular world view that might say we're just here by chance and it's random and matter and time and energy all came together somehow at a singular point.

And there's really no point to all that. But we just need to think a little bit more critically about the universe that we live in. It's bigness, it's smallness, it's complexity the mathematics behind it. I even say the mind behind it, the code in our very DNA, the intricacy and the beauty, the morality that human beings seem to have uniquely that all point to a designer, a mind. And we can take in a sunset and we can see the sky and we Marvel at the stars and the scriptures say in the beginning, God. It's right there. He created. And we call this just his general revelation. But then it's up to him to tell us who he is or, or it is, or she is or whatever. And what you see in the Bible is a collection of these books and letters over the period of 1500 years. Over 40 different authors, written on three continents, that's all telling the same story about creation and about our purpose and how to walk in our purpose.

And ultimately when you get to take in the whole counsel of scripture, you see that, wow, this thing was about Jesus. And this thing was about Christ coming so that we could be rightly related to our creator. And so I think if you're listening today, I would just ask that you take a look at Jesus in the Bible and even start right there in the gospel of John and take some time and look at those pages and see what Jesus has to say about life and about spiritual things.

And Barbara, you asked, how do I get in, what's the checklist? And like you said, there is no checklist, right? It's not a matter of checking the right boxes to be walking with the Lord. It's a matter of faith. It's a matter of your heart before him. It could be a matter of saying, okay, I believe you are who you say you are.

And I want to walk with you and I want to thank you for what you've done for me in Christ. And it all happens in the heart. Jesus was having a conversation in John chapter four with a woman at a well, and she was asking the question, well, what's the right place to worship?

Is it that temple or that temple? And Jesus says, let me tell you, there's a time that's coming. And it's now here. That is not going to be about this place or that place, but true worshipers are going to worship the father in spirit and in truth. And we come to know that. By way of the truth that Jesus was telling.

And so this Barbara, as you know, and anybody listening, this is a matter of the heart and it can happen right now as you are, in trusting and placing your faith in Christ and then receiving his gift of forgiveness and righteousness and walking now in a whole new way of living.

Barbara: I'm so glad that you brought up the woman at the well Pat, because I fear that some people judge themselves and have been judged by other human beings and possibly even judged by the church on stuff that Jesus forgives.

But I wonder if there's people who feel they don't deserve it, which is a natural human tendency. You know, I got in trouble for this, that, and the other thing. And I'm not like all those Holy people or something like that. So again, I feel like we're probably on the same page with this, but since you brought up the woman at the well, do you have any thoughts for people who might say, I really don't deserve this.

I'm not good enough. I've done terrible things or terrible things have been done to me.

Patrick: Absolutely. Because if there was ever a person who was “undeserving” or an outcast, it was the woman at the well. I mean, if you go back to that account and you take into consideration the cultural context, so here's a woman in the middle of the day, avoiding all the other women in the town, because we learned from the scripture that she was basically married five times and now the man she's with was not her husband. That was culturally unacceptable for her town. So she was an outcast then from a Jewish perspective and Jesus was Jewish. She's a Samaritan. And those two racial, ethnic groups had incredibly bad blood.

And so you would never find a Jewish rabbi speaking with a foreign Samaritan woman, especially with all of her “baggage” out in public in the middle of the day. But Jesus throws all of that taboo out the window. So she was the wrong race, wrong religion, wrong gender. She was a hot mess and all these other things, and he sits down next to her.

And in a few small little words, he diffuses all that and he says, give me a drink. He's asking for kindness, he's striking up a conversation because he knew that there was something that she needed in her soul. And he was so freely wanting to give that satisfaction to her soul.

So if there was ever a candidate to write anyone off, it would have been that lady. So if you're listening and you're like, I've got baggage, I'm a hot mess. I've been in the wrong. And even maybe right now, I'm not doing things the way Jesus would want. If you saw him on the street, he's probably going to come up to you and ask for a drink. And that's the beautiful thing about grace. It just breaks in and it feels so good.

Barbara: Exactly. And I had a hard time at the beginning and I don't have a hard time anymore, but there's this thing called grace bomb. And so I have a hard time with bombs. Bombs have a really negative connotation to me, but a grace bomb is something totally different. So I'm wondering if you could share, what does this grace bomb mean?

Patrick: the phrase is evidence of contrast, and you see that happen in the Bible where God likes to take something that men make for evil and turn it to good.

And so you can think about when Joseph was put in the pit and sold into slavery. And he finally gets to see his brothers and they're afraid because he's in power and he says, listen, you meant it for evil. God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20). Even you can take something as despised and dreadful as the cross. People wouldn't even mention the cross in polite public back in Jesus's day, but God took this cross and he did the most beautiful thing upon it.

And so, in one sense, we're trying to use this little phrase redemptively, and we're not really looking towards the violence of bomb or the way evil people would use it. But we looked for the disruption of a bomb. That the disruption of a bomb came out of the blue.

You didn't really see it coming. And it changes things all of the sudden. And God's grace is kind of like that. It just breaks in and things can change all of a sudden. And instead of messing things up, it made things better. And so that's the phrase, grace bomb, but we also use it as a verb. And we'd like to say that you can grace bomb your neighbor.

And a grace bomb is any surprising or intentional act of love prompted by the spirit, motivated by Jesus. And we even have little cards that point people to the website to let them know that this wasn't just random acts of kindness, that this was in fact intended to point them to the source of kindness, just like that woman at the well where they can truly find the satisfaction of their soul.

Barbara: the concept of evangelism always kind of scared me, like even the word, but we're commanded to tell people the good news. And yet maybe not just for introverts, but how do you go about doing that? Are you knocking on the door and saying, can I come in and talk with you about faith? Which probably for many people at both ends of that transaction could be kind of scary. And what I'm also really grateful for is that there are paper cards in the back of your book, but also there for free on your website. So someone can just download a bunch and it doesn't mean, Hey, let me knock on your door, can we have a conversation about this? It's, here's a plate of cookies and there's this little card. And if they want more information, they can go check it out. So it's sharing the good news of God's love with other tangible means and it could be money. It could be cookies, it could be a whole bunch of anything, really.

So I really appreciate that. And I know you have tons of stories about different positive grace bombing experiences, as well as moments where you were like, Oh, I don't know, what am I supposed to be doing? Or I don't really want to do this. Do you have any particular favorite story that you want to share?

Patrick: Sure. I'll tell one - the story was an unfolding story that really took a couple of years for me to see what God was doing with it. And so I'll tell it briefly. So everybody listening in can kind of get the idea here. But my daughter Scarlet wanted to go on a daddy daughter date.

And so I took her out and on her own volition she said, dad, we should grace bomb somebody. And what she meant was let's do something awesome for a neighbor. And so I had three of those little cards that you just mentioned, put them in my pocket and we were at McDonald's and our first grace bomb was the anonymous kind of grace bomb, where nobody's going to know we did it, and we're never going to see that person again.

That's like the introvert’s way to start out in grace bombing. So we paid for the meal of two elderly ladies at McDonald's. And instead of getting a check to pay, they got a grace bomb card. That was a fun surprise. And we left and then Scarlet wanted to do another grace bomb for her Bible teacher later that night. And so she prepared that on her own. And I had one grace bomb card left, and this is where the story got kind of crazy. Kristen and I went to grab wings at a little restaurant down the street. And our server came up and said, the last person that I waited on right here, this table just walked out on the check. And Kristen and I both can had that this is a great moment to grace bomb somebody. And so we, grace bombed our server and we thought that would be the end of the story. And what we did was we paid the extra amount that would have covered that this poor waitress. Exactly. So this is a great time to bring up the love of Jesus in a practical way.

And as far as we knew that was going to be the end of the story. But what ended up happening was the owner of that restaurant wife would end up speaking with me, investigating grace bomb, starting to grace bomb on her own with her real estate team. And then she shows up at the back of in the back of the church on a Palm Sunday.

And I was like, Whoa. She came up afterward and she said, Hey, I just wanted you to know that I'm making this my new church home. And that I've ended a 20-year silence with God. And it had a lot to do with God's showing me some new things in the middle of all this grace bomb activity.

And I came to find out that 20 years ago, she had lost a very close friend in a tragic act of gun violence. And then a couple years later she experienced unforeseen divorce. And she told me after that, I walked away from God for 20 years. Thinking if he's there, how could he let these things happen?

And it was around about the time that a little seven year old girl wanted to grace bomb somebody that Christy would eventually come back to church and even be baptized. And it was such a sweet moment because when she was baptized at our church. In our church, when you're an adult and you want to kind of express your new-found faith, you can do that.

And she had my wife, Kristin and Scarlet to be a very special part of that moment because she realized that it had to do with a little seven year old girl pushing that first little domino  to get her dad to have some grace bomb cards in his pocket that would eventually lead to this awesome moment. And then Christie has since gone on to become a serial grace bomber herself. And they're having a lot of fun with that and get grace bomb cards at the restaurant. And so we don't always get to see the full circle of where our good works go. And that's fine because we don't need to know. We just get to obey and love someone. And then the outcome ultimately is in the Lord's hand.

Barbara: for anyone who wishes, your website is grace bomb.org. People can write a little story if they want to, to make it public. It certainly doesn't have to be.

And in the book, grace bomb, there's cardboard cards in the back, or people can get them for free on your website. And then for someone who receives a card, the website's on the card, so they can look it up and learn about, they may be familiar with faith stuff or they might not be.

Patrick: that's right. If anyone's interested or intrigued, they will be pointed to Jesus. And that's our point. We want to unveil the source of our kindness in a way that feels really good.

Barbara: Exactly. Do you have any other resources in mind for people or any other tips on just showing God's love in a proactive way in our communities?

Patrick: here's what you do. It's very simple. You keep cards on you cause they sort of burn hole in your pockets.

You're thinking, Oh, I wonder if this is an opportunity to use one of these cards and what that does, is it actually in a simple way, just kind of triggers the awareness of our neighbors. But then I would say, I call that being loaded, just have cards on you. And they go along with any of, any gift of your time, treasure or talent.

But then I would say, look and listen, be prayerful among your neighbors. Be asking the Lord, would this be a great opportunity or perhaps you sensed something about somebody who's having a really terrible day and the Lord might in some way, nudge you or prompt you or place something on your heart to obey. And if you feel that, and if you sense that, then I would just say, let her go take that step of faith. Don't worry about the outcome. Experience the joy that follows obedience and see what God does because I contend whenever you step out in faith, you're stepping out into an adventure that God wants you on.

Barbara: Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate your insight and your wisdom and your good ideas for new ways of doing an old, old call to our lives.

Patrick: thank you, Barbara.

Resources:

Matthew 6:1-4

Ephesians 2:10

Genesis 50:20

John 4

Grace Bomb by Patrick Linnell

www.gracebomb.org

Time with Chiquita

Barbara:  Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Takita Geronimo and our topic is time. I met Chiquita at Fort drum, New York, where she's recently retired after serving active duty in the United States army for 24 years.

She's from Florida and through her military years, she lived in Germany, she was deployed five times and lived in five other states side locations, including Washington, California, and Georgia. Shaquita grew up going to church every Sunday and then as an adult, she rededicated her life to Christ. She just graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology and Chiquita is going to be going back to school

this fall for a master's in pastoral counseling. Welcome to Kieta. How are things for you today? Yay.

Chiquita: Things are gone well and good morning, Barbara.

Barbara: We have several different aspects of time to talk about today, starting with the Bible passage from Proverbs. I'm going to be reading chapter three, verses five and six. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, submit to him and he will make your paths straight.

Thank you so much for selecting this passage for us today, Chiquita. And I'm wondering if you can share why this verse is so precious to you.

Chiquita: This verse has been with me for a couple of years now, one that I go back and reference to because I had a problem with have a control over my life and wanting everything in place. I want to do this this day. At this time. I think I got that from the military service because we know what would work from the time we wake up until the time we get out. So I had to put that trust back in God. So when I trust in him, I don't have to worry about anything. When I seek him, he's going to direct my path.

Barbara: We have some balancing act to talk about today because we want to honor God for sure and trust in God, for sure. And then sometimes on earth, we just need to do things to the best of our ability, in terms of our schedule. For example, going to work, you were active duty for many years. You were a parent and you were also a college student. How did you prayerfully seek to balance your time with God? You got to get to work at a certain time where you're going to get in trouble. You got to get your school assignments done, unless maybe there's a serious reason to not get them done, as well as taking care of your family.

How did you approach that, Chiquita?

Chiquita: in the mornings, I try to get up to do my devotion, but when I was on active duty before going to PT, sometimes it may not be that way. Sometimes I have to get it in after PT or on my lunch break or even in the afternoon. So it all depends on the dynamics of my day.

But I prefer to do it in the morning before I start my day, because once we get started, we never know what may happen.

Barbara: And probably most people know in military speak PT is your exercise time, not necessarily physical therapy, but we do want to talk about making time for doctor's appointments also.

When you retired from the military, all of a sudden you had your day wide open and not as much structure as that was provided. And for me, it was moving around to some different locations where I wasn't able to find paid employment in those locations. And that's applicable to a lot of military families as they travel around. How did you settle into any kind of a routine when you had all this open time, but you still had a lot of stuff you had to take care of?

Chiquita: Well, being that we have a family, you know, you have to consider the family time and especially with COVID virtual learning or half days what I would try to do is, and what I do is just.

Look at my schedule, what I have going on. I'm still in school. So doing continuing education. So I try to see what works best for me. So classes in the mornings work best for me after I get up and I do my devotion, trying to do my classes in the morning. So it frees up the afternoon for appointments, errands, house chores.

And then in the evening time with my family.

Barbara: Did you set up any sort of tools to help you be organized? Or can you just like remember everything? Cause I, for sure can't. I like to have a schedule, but I know not everybody wants to have a schedule or wants to give themselves a schedule

if they don't have that kind of structure in their day,

Chiquita: I have to have a planet. Some people use their phone, but I have, because I'm visual. Let me see what's going on. So from the time I wake up until the evening, I have an idea of what I have going on, so I can be able to look at my day and say, okay, well, I know I'm in classes in the morning, I'm studying in the morning.

So in the afternoon I have an appointment at this time. I have my women's group at this time. And then I need to start cooking at this time. So I'm able to live at my schedule and look at my days to see what I have going on for each day. And Dan have to have a glimpse of the whole week.

So I know if I need to adjust some things around because other things may come up. But being able to see what I have going on. And, we just finished PWC, Protestant, women of the chapel that we had classes on Tuesday morning. So I knew on Tuesday mornings that was open for our women's ministry.

So my classes would start in the afternoon. So being able to adjust as other things is added to our daily live.

Barbara:  And one thing that I did that helped me is I actually made a checklist for myself. I had a schedule, but I put a checklist inside a page protector, and you can laminate it , whatever works for you. So then say I had class on Tuesday and I knew I wanted to finish my homework on Monday. So I would put, finished my homework on Monday. There's just a sense of satisfaction for me when I can put a check mark. On the line next to the thing that I need doing. So just for me, that helped.

And I actually ended up having to also put on that checklist a certain amount of time away from the computer every day. Cause I ended up feeling kind of stressed out. Not all of my stuff is on the computer, but a lot of it was, and I was sitting for hours in front of the computer and I just said, I need to space things apart.

Throwing in a load of laundry or going for a walk to not be in front of my computer. Cause then I was getting really grumpy and stressed out. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about self-care Chiquita? How can we honor God by taking care of ourselves while we also have a lot of things that need to get done?

Chiquita: I think self care is very important. That was something I had to learn maybe about seven or eight years ago because I was busy, busy, busy. But self care is vital. And not take time for yourself, you'll feel like you say grumpy. By the time the evening come and it's time for your children. It's time for your spouse.

You don't have time for them. So you have to take that time out to relax. Whether it's a walk, whether it's listening to music, if you love coloring or drawing, whatever you love to do, whatever brings you joy or whatever brings you peace. That's something that you have to do. I love walking and listening to music, or I just listen to music within the house. But self care it's very important. And I know in our community we have a lot of homeschool moms. So being able to take that break in the middle of the day. So having an upstanding period, like during your planning period, take time out, I would take 15 minutes out. So yeah. I can just take this time for me so that I can regroup.

Let me get pulled out my devotional and read something that replenished me so I can go back and take care of my children and take care of the daily tasks that I have to do.

Barbara: One of my favorite websites that I want to recommend is from a very kind woman. It's called fly lady.net. And you can see the story of why she calls herself fly lady.

And if you don't like cleaning like me, she has a routine that's on her website, that's for free and you can get emails. But she really says you do some cleaning and then you take a break and then you go back and do something else and you take that time to rejuvenate yourself.

And it's certainly in the Bible. We've had other episodes about Sabbath. But just in terms of when things are unstructured, I grew up like, you take care of your stuff first. You can like relax later some other time. But what if your to-do list is never done? Then, how do you figure out how am I going to say is it okay for me to take this time for myself? It's okay.

Chiquita: We need it for ourselves and we need a proper family. And even when we going out and interacting with other people, if we're tired, if we're depleted, we can't give them our best and we can't perform at our best love.

So it's best for us to take time out well, it's 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes mine in time within our day so that we could take a break and just relax.

Barbara: I'm really glad you said the words, timeout and rest. Because my first social work boss actually taught all the people who work there, that if you're in a setting with other people, you can take a time out in a bathroom and you don't have to tell people that you're taking the time out in a bathroom.

You can just say, excuse me, I need to use the restroom. Now I know some folks have little kids and they're like, oh great, we'll go with you to the bathroom. So that might not feel like a timeout, depending on if you have young children near you. But you also said rest. And so sleep is something we haven't talked about yet that it's okay to set limits around your schedule, even around sleeping.

That may feel impossible to some folks because I know people want to just do what needs to be done. And even if it means staying up late at night. Do you have a routine for kind of shutting things down at night for yourself Chiquita, to get enough rest?

Chiquita: Yes I do- in the evening, I would say around about six, six 30, because by then my son has finished plan and talking to his friends.

So that's our time. And unless it's important, I try not to take phone calls because that's me and my son's time. For us to discuss how his day went, how my day went and just sit around and play games and look at TV. So I went to even put my phone on, do not disturb because I have family in California.

I have them all over the United States. So they may call because they're up and they may think I'm up because I'm retired when no, I'm sleeping. So I try to go to bed about an hour after my son goes to bed because I have to wake up before he does so that we can start out day. So just having that times where, Hey, this evening time is for me and my family, so that I can see how they do it.

So I can spend time with them because if you think about it, and if you add up the hours in the day, from the time the spouses get home from the time the kids get home from school or finished for homeschool,

you only have about three to four hours before it's time to go to bed. So, and within the three to four hours, you prepare dinner, you're cleaning up. People are getting their bath. So that time is even shorter. So it's so important to make sure you have that family time in the evening and just make sure your other family know, make sure your friends know that Hey.

You know, in the evening, I try to give that time to my children, to my spouse. And everybody should be doing that. So if everybody's spending family time, nobody should be trying to do it.

Barbara: Yeah. I'm so glad you said you set your phone on do not disturb because I thought I was weird that I started doing that.

Actually, when we lived in Germany, there was an even bigger time change with the east coast and people would just forget and yeah. If you're working, you know, if you're emergency on call, then you have to take calls. But if you're not emergency on call and people just forget the time difference, and they're calling you at two in the morning and that's disruptive.

So that is a limit that can be set unless you have a really strong reason of why you can't do that. But to let people know. And that brings me to another recommendation that I wanted to make. There's a Bible study called the best yes that was written by Lisa TerKeurst. And that talks about how we can say yes to 10 wonderful ministry opportunities.

But if we are maxed out and are not able to take care of our families and ourselves, this Bible study really talks about when is it okay to say no to a perfectly good opportunity? Because we're saying yes to something else. Did you ever have that situation Chiquita where you needed to set some limits around a wonderful opportunity because you already had enough on your plate?

Chiquita: Yes. Yes. I had to learn that. I think it was about 2016 because I love helping people. I love being out. So if somebody needed help, I'm there, you know, whether I'm pushing what I need to do to the side, but I had to learn to say, no, well, I can't do it today, but let me see what the remainder week look like.

Or no, I won't be able to do it this time. So being able to say no and being at peace and being okay with your note is very important. And again, if we make sure that our family and our friends understand the dynamics of our lives, because what we have to realize is my life structure, my home structure and system is  different from your home structure and system.

So the responsibilities that I have and the responsibilities that you have, or another fellow may have, may be different. So therefore I may not be able to do what you can do because  being on active duty, being a student, being a mom that takes a lot of your time.

So I'm not going to be able to do what another woman may be able to do that's not in school, right. Because they don't have that extra responsibility right of studying. Or when we talk about ministry, if I'm serving in a position within a ministry, I have to make sure I take time out, slack of prepare myself so that I can do whatever God has called me to do concerning this ministry.

So my time may be limited to the outside. One of the things that I picked up from one of my mentors was whatever you ask her for, she always say, let me go back and pray about it. So you're not different than me. Yes. And you're not giving them a no.

That gives you time to go back and see God to see Lord, do I have time to add this in my schedule? One. And to Laura, is this something that you want me to do? Because every good thing may not be what God may be calling you to do in this season and in this time of your life. So it's so important for us to say, Hey, I have to go back and pray about it, or let me talk to my spouse.

Let me see what my kids have gone on because whatever they have going on, may conflict with what somebody else may be asking you to do.

Barbara:  And it is okay to set those limits. Saying yes all the time doesn't make us better people of faith or even necessarily better human beings.

And it's okay to say not during this season, or you said maybe later this week. Maybe at the end of the semester, depending on what applies to you. And this actually is a good time for our second Bible verse that could be related in some way to what we're talking about in John chapter 10, John is one of the books in the gospel.

So it's in the new Testament towards the back of your Bible. Verse 10 says a thief is only there to steal and kill and destroy. I came so that they can have real and eternal life. More and better life than they ever dreamed of. And I'm thinking about how can our time be stolen away from us when Jesus is talking about real and eternal life, what does this passage mean to you?

To Canada?

Chiquita: When we are consumed and so many things would deplete it. So when we're depleted, depending on people, mental capacity and mental state that could lead to depression, that could lead to arguments in the home, that could lead to not being there for the children in the home. So then your children feel alone, your children feel abandoned, your husband feel not wanted.

So what happens, the relationship is destroyed, right? And that's not what God wants for us. You know, he came so that we can have life and so that we can live right. So we need to live our best life and living our best life is getting instructions, directions and wise counsel from God each and every day.

And within our family consultant those within our family so that we know that, Hey, this is what we're doing, or this is what God has called us to do. So if everyone is on one accordance, everyone is in compliance with what we're trying to do as a family. Then we can move forward knowing that, Hey, this is what our household, what God has called us to do in this season

and this time. Because being too busy, the little small things us trying to help, it can take away from our family. It can take away from our household where our household is, our first ministry, right?

So how are we ministering to our husband? How are we ministering to our children? And I know growing up, my grandmother used to always tell us, you have to take care of home first. You have to take care of home first. You have to help home first because if your home is okay, then you have the resources and the ability to go and help someone else.

And be okay with it.

Barbara: Did you ever have a time when you were kind of struggling to discern what God was calling you to do? Because on the one hand I am fully supportive of setting limits and saying, this is what I can do, and this is what I can't do, but I'm also aware it might sound unkind. People might say, well, you don't care about anybody else if you're always saying no. How do you figure out, is this something that God is asking me to do right now? Or maybe this is not the right season for me to be picking up this additional.

Chiquita: For me, it's the presence of peace that, that I get from God. So if I know it's something that God is calling me to do what I'm not doing it. He'll keep bringing it up in my mind. That's how he works with me. That's my relationship with him. Now, if it's something that I know I should be doing an add on stuff.

That's when I stopped feeling anxious. That's when I stopped worrying. And I know for me, with my relationship with him, that's what I had. So. Okay. Well, Hey, that's not what he wants me to do right now. And even thinking about what has God called us to do? Like what path, what destiny does God have us on?

So if we know that, if we know who we are in a group, and we know what guy has called us to do, then we want to accept anything that's gonna hinder the movement and the direction that God has taken us to. And it's so important for us to spend that time with him because yes, God, he comes in. And he may take us on a different path where we thought we was going this way, and this is the path that we were on.

He may come in and do something different because sometimes he want to see, okay, are you going to trust me when I take you this route? Right? Cause this is about seeing too comfortable, this route seeing too easily. Let me see if you're going to trust me. So going back to him and praying and seeing God, okay, is this the route that you're taking me to and being okay with it?

And we have to understand as believers in the body of Christ, that everyone has a different maturity level. So what other people may not be in agreement or they may be upset. I look at it as they're not mature in that area of their lives and I'm okay. So I know. Okay. I'm okay for them. And hopefully God will reveal to them what he has called me to do.

But then okay with what God has called us to do is so important because people going to see our gifts, people gonna see our talents. So yeah, they're going to want to use this because we can bring something good to the ministry, but that may not be what God wants us to be at this time. He may want somebody else in that position.

So it's so important. Lift your weight and pray and see, okay, God is this where you're calling me to? And he will let us know that he'll let us know.

Barbara: sometimes it might be, Hey, nobody else is doing this. We really, really need you. And that's one of the reasons why it helps me to have a schedule.

And I completely agree with you about prayer and discernment. But if I've got, say, for example, my homework or my Bible study or this ministry or that thing on my calendar already, and I'm looking, okay, someone needs a ride to the doctor and absolutely yes, I can do it and it'll take a few hours and we had a great time.

But if there's other stuff, how do you prioritize? Prayer and discernment is one way, if you have a schedule and obviously someone in your family gets sick and needs to go to the emergency room, that's not optional. But if someone says, Hey, can I have a ride somewhere? And you're taking a look at some structure that you have in place, and even putting your exercise time on your calendar is another technique. You don't have to justify to people, in terms of maturity, you don't have to explain, no, I need to go to the gym because I have a medical situation or a health situation, or I need a doctor's appointment and then they want to know what your doctor's appointment is for.

You don't have to get into all that stuff. You can just say I'm really sorry. I can't. And we talked a little bit about rest and taking care of ourselves, but how about even prioritizing our own medical stuff? Sometimes it takes a lot of effort and advocacy to get those appointments and to figure it out. And you're kind of low on energy. How do you prioritize the gift that God has given us in our field physical bodies?

Chiquita: Taking care of temple is important as well as taking care of family, taking care of things within our community. We had to take care of ourselves first because how can we work? How can we serve? We're not our best, right? So it's important for us to ensure that we're taking time out to do a meal plan. What am I going to eat this week? Do I have everything in my refrigerator that I need to eat so that I can eat healthy and I'm not stopping at the fast food, or I'm not picking up Popeye's every night or I'm not going to dominoes? What day am I going to the grocery store?

So then I can make sure that me and my family has the meals that we need so that we can be healthy. And also what days within the week am I going to take time out to go and exercise? It's like an appointment. So that's written in my schedule as well. You know, certain days I work out in the morning and certain days I work out in the afternoon.

So. What days am I going to designate for working out, getting out, walking, riding my bicycle, going to the gym or for those that have equipment or likes to go on YouTube to find a video on YouTube. So yes, that time has to be carved out because it's so important that we take care of our bodies and have time for exercise have time to arrests, have time to prep our food so that we're eating healthy.

Barbara: And lest anyone think that we're perfect. Cause I'll be the first to say I am far from perfect. I use a timer for a couple of different things and I got this idea from flylady.net

I don't mind using a timer for my break and I'm just goofing off I'm online or whatever, but I also can use a timer for things that I don't like to do because one of the recommendations from fly lady is you don't have to clean for five hours without stopping, just clean for a certain period of time and then stop.

And do as much as you can and then do something different. And that might be an unusual way of looking at things, but it is effective for me.

Chiquita: one of my downfalls that I'm trying to improve on, I hate checking emails. So I try to even have time where I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna check my emails. I'm gonna try to respond to everybody. I call it my office time where I'm checking my emails, responding my mail, filing things. And this year that I was like, okay, I have to improve on because when it comes to checking emails and now that I'm a civilian.

That's how everybody communicate through emails versus face-to-face, that's have a meeting in the morning, let's have a meeting in the afternoon. So just time to get better at checking my email, filing and doing the stuff that I have to, the administrative part of what in a household.

Barbara: for some folks, it might be the opposite too much time, either on social media. But if you need to set limits around online shopping or social media or something like that, because it's taking your focus away from other things that need to be focused on that support. Or playing solitaire or something like that. Do you have any websites or books or sources besides the Bible that have really helped you to figure this stuff out?

Chiquita: A planner has been my best friend for the last three years, whether you use your phone or whether you can have from the store, I believe in having a planner. And then just like you said, having a list. So I have my weekly planner up on my wall, then I have my list of the things that I need to check off and I need to accomplish on the side of the table.

So I make sure I have that and then also pouring into yourself. So what self-care books are you reading? I try to read one new book every month. So this month, I'm reading commanding your morning by Cindy Trimm. And so where I'm at right now, she's talking about just being positive. You know, renewing your mind and thinking of those things, which are positive.

Okay, because that can change our mood. If we're thinking negative things, then we can be in a negative mood. But if we're thinking about positive things, if we're focusing on the things that God has called us to do, and being intentional is so important. So just finding a devotional or a self-help book where you pointed to yourself, and I don't like to read, so for me, this is like a new thing, like reading a book every month, because it's important. Because we give so much to other people, but what are we doing and given to ourselves. A local women's group, because we grow and we learn from each other. The Bible says iron shopping hours. And so connecting with your local women's group is so important. And just getting out of being involved with the community. You know, we do stuff, you know, so whether it's once a week, once a month, you have that time away from children where you can just talk to other women, right.

And learn from other women, get tips and tools from other women that has the same mindset as you, which is the mindset of price.

Barbara: And I want to affirm that there are many benefits that can come from any type of Bible study. So if you're in a co-ed group, there's nothing wrong with that. But I believe what we have experienced is that there's really something special when women hang out in a faith based setting, that there's more open conversation and say, even prayer requests.

Or help me understand this in my own faith walk, and that might not happen in a co-ed Bible study. So we just want to affirm that there's different ways and not every place has separate women's ministries, but we really do want to encourage that. And what if you could even start one yourself, it doesn't have to be a huge group of people.

It could just be three or four people together and even online, if it has to be it folks away from each other. Yeah.

Chiquita: And that's how I started when I was at Fort Bragg. we would meet on Friday nights at Starbucks and we would go through a book together.

We weren't doing books, a devotional together every Friday night. You know, the kids is at one table and the adults was at another table. So. Being able to do that. Yeah.

Barbara: Great. There's a huge list of resources on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com.

There's a resources tab and there's tons of books and Bible studies that are recommended there. Just if you're looking for a place to start, but there's so much out there. Some things you need to purchase, and then there's also free resources.

I love having structure. I need it. I like having a routine and I know there's people who hate routines, who just think that that's not really a great idea. Can you speak to the benefits of why are we thinking about this stuff ahead of time? Cause you can just go through your day, you have no idea

what's next. That's fine. We're not judging, but how can it help to keep a focus?

Chiquita: To make sure that you're not missing anything to ensure that you're not late to what you have to do next, because it's not written down. You're not saying that you not getting a reminder. And also it holds you accountable.

It holds you accountable to yourself and not only yourself because other people may be pulling, Hey, let's go here. Let's do this. If you know what should have done, you could say, well, no, I can't do that because I have to do. A B and C this ethanol, and I won't have time to complete the things I need to complete because I'm going with you.

So just being able to say, Hey this is what I have going on and you don't even have to sit with it, but just having a generalized view of what you're going to do with each day, because things do come up. But we need to know what's important for Thursday. What do I need to do on Thursday

that's important that I cannot put off till Friday. So that's why I haven't structure is important for those that don't believe in instruction.

Barbara: Yeah. And I really agree with you about meal planning. When I don't do meal planning and I'm just standing there thinking what in the world am I going to fix

today it really helps. at least if you know, okay, this is what I think I'm going to make. This is what I'm need to buy. Cause I'm also looking and then it becomes a financial thing. Okay. I already have a bunch of say pasta or rice in my pantry. I don't need to buy anymore or, oh, okay.

I just ran out. I do need to get some more. If I want to cook some healthy foods. And have a list and then it's up to you. If you want to go ahead and do that the way you had it planned out. But if I don't do menu planning, then it's usually not looking so good in the health department for healthy eating for the rest of the week.

Do you have any others tips or suggestions in terms of balancing our time to honor God in our lives, as well as taking care of practical things?

Chiquita: Just seek God daily. As Kim Lord, what's important that you have for me to do to today. Be okay with saying no, and as God make adjustments in our lives, trust what he's doing, trust what he's doing, because he has us on this faith journey.

And not only that, he knows our. And so he knows our future. And if we are live by him, we're going to accomplish everything that he has for us to accomplish.

Barbara: Yup. Do you pray in different ways to kill it? In other words, do you sometimes pray with spoken words? Do you ever write your prayers? Is it just silent in your heart sometimes?

Chiquita: I pray silently in my heart. I pray out loud. I pray on my knees. I pray walk in and I have several prayer focuses on my wall, not only for me, but for my children as well, because they want to be intentional without words. And we want to be intentional with ensuring that we are praying God's words over our children.

Speaking life, because it's so important to speak life because God is working in each and every one of us. And even for our spouses, because God shows us the imperfections within ourselves, as well as the imperfections in our spouses and our children. So we have to go back and say, what does God say about my spouse?

What does God say about my children? So taking time out to write those prayers out and right. Vitamin a descriptions. Because God's word is true, right? His word is true. His word never lie. So I'm going to pray God's word over my children. And for those that are married, pray God's word over your spouse and believe it, believe it.

And walk in faith, not looking at what may be going on today, but looking at who God says your spouses and who God says your children is. And even ourselves whole guys say that I am. I'm chosen. So when I say that, it just brings so much love within my heart to know that he chose me.

So we know who we are. And whose we are, we know that we can accomplish anything. So even right now, those prayers, and right now, those affirmations concerning ourselves and saying them over and over again, until we believe what God was saying as concerned ourselves, because who we are today is not who God has called us to be because he's working in that daily.

Daily he's working in us. So we may not do our best today. And we may not do nothing. And that's okay. Because as long as you know how to get back up and get back into starting our day and putting God first, he going to continue to work in us because that's what his word says and his word is true. And I believe it.

Barbara: we watched the movie war room when I was in Germany with the Protestant women of the chapel group, and we were laughing because they don't have closets in Germany, they have these wardrobe things that are outside the wall. So you open it up and you hang stuff, but it's not like a walk-in closet. But we just love that idea of having your prayers written on the wall in your closet, but it doesn't have to be in a closet. It can be on a door. And one of the Bible studies, I think it was fervent that I did by Priscilla Shirer had cards in the back of the book to tear out and write your prayers on, but you don't need cards in a Bible study, just any notebook, paper, or index cards, because when you see it taped on your wall, like you said, then it comes more to your mind. And then it's easier to see when those prayers are answered.

When a situation is resolved, even if it was such a struggle at the time. And even if it's still a situation now, you can see answers of how God has provided for those situations.

Chiquita: And then also, I just want to add it all have to be in a closet. Because I looked at my time in my dad, his areas, slack off is so unwelcome, walled.

I have nothing but prayer requests, affirmations. And on the other wall, I have pictures of my children and I wrote down the scriptures concerning them and prayers concerning them. Because this is what I spend the majority of my time in this area.

Barbara: The Bible is full of amazing scripture passages and also prayers. Thank you so much for your time today.

Chiquita: Barbara, I really enjoyed myself and thank you for having me.

Resources:

Proverbs 3:5-6

John 10:10

www.flylady.net

Commanding your Morning by Cindy Trimm

The Best Yes by Lysa TerKeurst

Fervent by Priscilla Shirer

Hospitality with Carrin

Hospitality with Carrin

Barbara:  Hi everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Carrin Mahmood and our topic is hospitality. Carrin is from St. Paul, went to college in Nebraska, taught in Michigan and attended LCMS Lutheran schools from childhood through college.

She found that the ELCA Lutheran beliefs were a better fit for her. Carrin was a Lutheran high school teacher in Michigan for several years, moved back home to Minnesota, married into a restaurant owning family, and owned, managed and worked in restaurants for many years, then became the director of women's ministry at a Lutheran church in the twin cities.

She's now running a homeless shelter as part of that church and cooks a free community meal once a week. Carrin wants to continue to write and do more liturgical painting, launch a restaurant operated by our marginal siblings, such as homeless, recovering, ex-con, et cetera. Welcome, Carrin. How are things for you today in Minnesota?

Carrin: It is a little cloudy but shaping up to be a beautiful day here.

Barbara: Our Bible passage today is from Hebrews chapter 13. So if you're following along in your Bible, it's towards the back of the Bible in the new Testament, and I'm going to be reading Hebrews chapter 13, verse two.

“Remember to entertain strangers for in doing so some have entertained angels unaware.” Has the concept of hospitality evolved for you since you were a kid?

Carrin: I grew up in a home where it was always a place at the table for anyone who showed up, and show up

they did. I lived with my grandma and grandpa, and it was nothing unusual for a family or 10 people to just pop over right around dinner time. And as an adult, I am amazed that there was never a blinked eye. We just set more places, and there's always enough food. Hot dishes stretched.

And so that's what we had a lot of. And so hospitality to me always meant just welcoming it, always centered around food. And I think As an adult, it has stretched greater than that, for me, as I looked into the Bible and as I began to live out, what does this mean? And I left the In air quotes, hospitality industry, which usually means hotel or food and went to church.

I thought, wouldn't it be sad if we were leaving hospitality behind as we entered the church doors? Sure. So one of the reasons I love St Andrew's where I work is we operate under a system of radical hospitality. So not only is the coffee always on for whoever walks through the door, if it's the ups guy or a parishioner or the president of the congregation, they all get treated the same.

But beyond that, we wanted to make sure that anyone who's marginalized has a place to be. And that's why we've opened our community resource center and the shelters.

Barbara: I love that expression, radical hospitality. And we'll be talking about that more today. I know that sometimes people think of hospitality more as, okay.

I'm going to invite these certain people over to dinner to my house. On a certain day at a certain time. And then wouldn't it be nice if they invited us back, they might not. And actually in the Bible it says, don't expect that kind of reciprocity just do it out of generosity from your heart, and don't expect to be invited back, but it seems to me like people are doing that less these days.

And I don't know if it's geographic, maybe in other parts of the United States that happens more often, but I grew up with it kind of being really structured and I have never had people just walk into my house growing up or even now. So that's really something that I'd love to look towards. Have you noticed, has hospitality shifted culturally over the years?

Carrin: it's become oddly less and more formal. I mean, there was a time when you would never show up to someone's house without a hostess gift you know, a bottle of wine or something. And so while some people still do that That is really on the formal end of things. Right. And I think depending on people's level of interest whether they're an introvert or an extrovert makes a big difference.

So my oldest daughter, kids were constantly at our house. Sometimes she wasn't there, but they would just stop over and hang out with us. The other kids, not so much, or it was just a difference, you know, in their particular friend group or the friend groups needs maybe family needs or whatever too. So hospitality, I think, yeah.

I don't see that. Kind of formal dinner party, maybe it's our socioeconomic group. We know what to do that I don't know, but we have recently, and I think it's been COVID we've recently, now that things have opened up since we're going to start inviting people over and be purposeful about it, because I don't think people would casually stop by.

Barbara: And so maybe that's something to consider just in our lives. And we'll be talking about offering hospitality also to strangers like this Bible verse instructs us to. I did have one question, Carrin, I think I know what you mean, but I'd love to hear more detail. What is liturgical art and how can you show hospitality through art?

Carrin: I've titled it that because religious arts seems like it should depict something from the Bible. Right. So I use liturgical because I feel like it can enhance a setting at church. It can enhance a setting in the home or somewhere else that brings you to a place of worship.

So when I went to Wartburg, I did my J term looking at art in churches. And there were churches all over the board. Some had absolutely nothing. Some here in the twin cities are part of the Walker art Institute. Some their main ministry is their art. So especially when I think of It church over in Minneapolis, their mission is when someone walks through our door, they will find something that looks like them.

So they have a Vietnamese Madonna, and they have African art and they have south American all different indigenous kind of art pieces up. And to me, that was such a nice piece of hospitality. The idea that Then when you walk in the church, it's not just a Swedish Lutheran church. But that, there's something that's that brings you into the presence.

And that seems very hospitable to me.

Barbara: I agree with you. That's really wonderful because if I walked in somewhere and didn't see anything that was of a connection to me, then I would kind of be more striving to understand where is the connection. So visually to feel that right away.

Carrin: then it becomes more of a museum, right? You're going someplace and looking to see what they're about. And it might be very interesting to learn about a lot of Russian art, or it might be interesting to learn about a German Lutheran service, but it wouldn't necessarily be personal. So my art, I try to keep abstract as much as possible because it's in that abstract art that people bring their own emotions and their own feelings in. And I think that's where the hospitality lies.

Barbara: Do you ever have times when people create art together in a faith-based setting?

Carrin: We do I have to tell you one really funny story. I had some young women over from my congregation. I said, well, let's come together and paint and dream because we were talking about how worship is going to look different now.

And so at the end of the night, they were so excited. They said, we thought we were just going to watch you paint. And I'm like, well, that'd be the worst invitation in the workbook. And you still came because. That was just funny to me that anyone would just come and watch me paint. But so I think there's a place for that creative spirit when we invite people in.

My favorite part of the creation story is God said, let there be light. There was light. And God said, let there'll be animals and the separation. And then at the end, God said, let us create humans. And so I feel like right from the beginning if there was a change and we were invited into that creative process, because there was an us involved

Barbara: I get the feeling that you welcome all different kinds of creativity. So it doesn't have to be here's this painting from this famous person. Now you copy it and make it look just as close as you can to have this famous person envisioned it.

No, I hear you saying anyone can be creative. It doesn't matter how old you are or if you've ever had any art lessons or anything like that.

Carrin: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's the process. For me putting a blank canvas is so exciting to be able to put color on that canvas. And some people really want a love of instruction when they do that.

Everyone wants to be happy with their final product, so you need to work on that in a way that makes you happy. And for some it's give me paint by numbers so I can really make it look like what it's supposed to and other people want their freedom.

Barbara: I know that that's not technically sort of pure hospitality as we've often thought of it, but what if hospitality can include welcoming different gifts that people have that they might not think that they had. So I know we have different aspects of hospitality to talk about too, and it sounds like you have a special cooking ministry.

Carrin: Six, maybe seven years ago. Now everything's a year longer than I think it is because of COVID nothing happened today a year that wasn't yeah, we had a cook that left St. Andrews and I said, I'll step in in the short-term until we can find someone.

And we did Soup lunches during lent and a few other things. And then they asked if I would stay on. And I said, yes, but I have a big requirement. And that's that it becomes a ministry. Otherwise I could go work in a restaurant again. So the kitchen needs to be open to other people and it needs to be a ministry.

So our Thursday night dinner, we feed about 120 people. Pre COVID times were just opening again and slowly. Ramping that up, starting with 30, 40 people. But on the day before there's teams of people that come in six to eight to 12, much like my grandmother's home, I plan for six people each week and sometimes there's 12 and then you adjust the menus

so that there's enough to do for everyone who shows up to work. But if that kitchen magic happens and hospitality and those people who come on a rotating basis really have formed a small group in the ministry with each other. They take care of each other. They send cards when someone's sick, they bring food to each of those homes, if someone needs it.

A lot of conversation. We pray, we hear about each other's lives and there's just something about having a knife in your hand, chopping or stirring some soup. That's again, around the table. And I think to me, it's communion. It is a way of sharing as a table, whether you're the one preparing or knowing them that it's going to be handed off to a group of people who really need the food, but more importantly, they need the community.

And that's like our community meal is a little different. We do ask parishioners to show up and people in the community not just who need a meal, because then you always have a group of people who are in the same circumstances sitting together.

Barbara: Yeah. It changes the power dynamic. If it's like, oh, we're helping these people. That's not what we're saying.

Carrin: If you're sitting next to someone who owns a car dealership and you need the car. And then there's, again, more of that hospitality, because people are there helping each other out. And sometimes you are being blessed and sometimes you are needed needing the blessing.

Barbara: It's not always the same people who are the ones giving and the ones receiving. I love that you talk about both the spiritual aspect of this ministry, as well as the practical aspect, because I imagine feeding 120 people in one day. You have experience in restaurant work, so that's a huge amount of prep work.

I can't even imagine. So that's wonderful that the helpers who come the day before and do a lot of the prep work have formed this small group ministry, even though it's different people, like you said, on a rotating basis.

Carrin: there's A core group of about five or six that come every week. Wow. Because they sign up for the whole year as fast as they can, because that's just what they do on Wednesdays.

They want to be there. And then others rotate in and I'm always so happy because that core group has gotten so tight. How Generous they are with their time and their laughter and how inclusive they are with the people who rotate in. And aren't necessarily a part of that smaller group, because sometimes that can be a little intimidating for people walking into a space that's occupied by people who've known each other for a long time.

Barbara: you don't want to click where the people all will know each other and talk about stuff that you have no idea what it is.  And one of the practical questions that I just thought of, if you don't mind, is how is something like a meal for 120 people paid for?

Carrin: We have second harvest here in town. They are a food bank for food shelves and for programs like ours. So that's one of our main resources and then gifts of the congregation. We can't, because we use second harvest ask for any money at the meal.

And we had decided anyway, not even a freewill offering because even then if one person is putting in the next one feels bad. Right. So we want that meal to be totally just the gift from us and from the congregation. And it's just worked out so far, so wonderful.

Barbara: Yeah.

Carrin: Thank you. It's a little like working on chopped because I never know what's going to be available.

Barbara: You open the basket and you're like, oh look,

Carrin: 40 pounds of pork.

Barbara: what's for dinner, except for the vegetarians or anyone for a faith reason that doesn't want the park, keep it separate.

Carrin: we always have a big green salad. We have homemade bread and homemade salad dressing.  We have linens on the table when they come in.

So it feels hospitable. It would be what you do when you invite guests into your home.

Barbara: And I also appreciate the invitation to challenge ourselves to maybe stretch beyond what's comfortable. And I'm wondering if you have some, either best practices to share in terms of this ministry or other thoughts about how to not do hospitality even without realizing that it might not be the greatest idea?

Is there any intrinsic bias that might come into play without us even realizing?

Carrin: Yeah, I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that you're not doing this for someone you're doing it with people. That we are opening our doors to include you into our family or to invite you in, even if it's just for a short amount of time.

I'm not doing this for those poor people, you know? I think it's the attitude and one I'm so happy to see every week. People approach this with such joy and to be the hands and feet of Christ. When you do a project can be tempting to be above the people that you're helping. Yeah. So that's interesting to keep it kind of at a level where you're inclusive. The meal you're serving today, you might need tomorrow.

You know, I can kind of always keep that in my heart that we're a paycheck or two away from being a family that needs to eat a nice free meal somewhere. And the same with the shelter here. When people are invited to volunteer their shelter, it's sometimes kind of a hard sell. I think when they hear homeless shelter, they think of a brick building with a guy sitting with a needle in his arm out back or something.

It's interesting to me to see the fear in their eyes and then they come here and we educate. That's part of our mission, to educate people on homelessness and it's just family. It's families who for one reason or another don't have a home right now and they need a little bit of help and they can stay here and work towards getting that.

And there's things you have to set aside, but A lot of ideas that pop up about what you think it is.

Barbara: And first of all, we're equally at risk, even though we may have had different types of benefit, we may feel like, well, I've got money in the bank or something like that, but it's not just those people and not everyone who is homeless uses drugs and not everyone who's homeless is violent or has mental health issues.

So I just am so grateful that you provide some training. And when you introduce people to each other, we can see that we're all God's children and yes, maybe there's a way that your particular faith congregation can provide programmatic support to help people get back on their feet. But that it's also showing God's love and not being judgmental.

Carrin: And this is a program, when people come in, we say you're at point a. To be housed, you need to get to point B. And then we support that through job searches, housing searches, resume building interview techniques. We have a free clothing store, which is really funny. I always want to tell people, stop donating your suits to free clothing stores because very few people

at all in the world, but especially very few people who are going to a free clothing store are going to have the kind of job where they need to wear a suit. Business casual is way more likely or solid work clothes.

Barbara: Absolutely, practical tips are welcome. I just read an article in the newspaper yesterday, unfortunately from one of the clothing donation ministries here in town.

And they said actually the opposite of what you said, but they said if it's really worn down and tattered, if it's basically fit to be a rag to clean something in your house, then please don't donate it. The article said they got a bag full of mismatched shoes and they're like, well, wait, who are we going to give these to in that case, please just take them to the dump.

Don't give them to us. Cause we have to pay to have all of this trash removed.

Carrin: Yeah. Either end. We've learned nobody wants business suits and nobody wants China anymore. Interesting. Nope, nowhere we get rid of your China.

Barbara: I'm curious about the Bible verse. What does it mean to you about that we may be entertaining angels when we're instructed to provide hospitality?

Carrin: The first time I heard this verse, I was very shocked it wasn't from the old Testament because I assumed it was centered around Abraham entertaining the three men in the desert, but then turned out to be angels that's right. Even though it might be referencing back to that It's in the Natchez, always intrigued by the literalness of it. Oh, we can invite someone in and it could be an angel.

And while I think that is still a possibility, you wouldn't want to be the person who turned the angel out to the street. I think as my ministry has grown and as I have become more involved, To me, it is seeing the angelic in all those who serve in angelic and all those who invite in or should be inviting him.

And why would we want to turn anyone away that we could possibly help because they're God's children. And so if not literal angels after we feed people, I never see wings pop out, but There's still just that rush of satisfaction that somewhere you're hearing well done, good and faithful servant that you've entertained.

Barbara: Yes. So on the one hand, seeing everyone as an angel. And then on the other hand, current, I also know from my years of being a social worker, that there might be times when limits do need to be set for safety reasons. So I just wanted to check in with you that absolutely see everyone as an angel, but I'm guessing that you probably have to have some situations where you say in order to keep the most number of people safe.

We do have to have a few practices in place, right? Even if it might be kind of awkward or difficult to set that limit.

Carrin: Yeah, of course. And I'm thinking specifically at the shelter we are run mostly by volunteers. We have 13 churches that have people either staying overnight or serving our evening meal.

Most of those volunteers are retired folks and so when we decide who comes into the shelter, we're a family shelter because that's where the gap was in our county. We are the only family shelters in our county, so it has to involve children. And we do background checks. There can't be a violent history.

There can't be a felony with any sort of violence. And we've also said We aren't taking moms from a domestic violence situation. Yeah. Because there are some really good DV shelters around for them that are safe and we don't have that level of security. We don't have that level of privacy with their teacher.

Just everyone knows where we are. So it wouldn't be safe for the guests or the volunteers. It's the world we live in that we do have to make some choices that aren't always easy. Luckily Minnesota is a state with great resources. So usually we can offer them some ideas and some resources for them to go to.

Barbara: I like to ask if there's an elephant in the room around this topic of hospitality or serving our siblings when it comes to meals or homelessness, is there something that's kind of awkward to talk about that we can maybe discuss and dig into a little, but around this theme?

Carrin: Yeah, I think two elephants. One is the color elephant. I think people assume that most people are people of color.

 So let's just jump on that for a little bit. So a lot of our guests are indigenous Or people of color.  But we also have a handful of Caucasian people too. So it's kind of the grapes and raisins thing. You know, it's not all people of color are homeless. You can dance around it to the point where you don't even want to mention it.

And yet, then you're also not being very hospitable. So what kind of foods are you serving? What things that are not as someone who grew up in a very Swedish white family little things like volume volume of our family was very low. We were all very soft-spoken.

It's what you did. For our homeless people, it's very different. It's just up here instead of down here with volume and that can put people off until you realize yeah, they need to yell. They need to be heard. And volume is one of the ways that happens. So you dig into that a little bit.

Well, they always sound so sassy and I'm like, yup. And if you were fighting for your kids and you were hungry all the time, you would be sassy too. She needs to do that too.

Barbara: So sort of cultural expectations. It's not fair to say, I'm most comfortable with people who are just like me. Okay. But who's that helping?

Carrin: Exactly. And so I grew up with this beautifully hospitable family. Nice white lady who wants to help everybody. We did a survey with our church and I got it back.

And it's that I had this huge amount of prejudice. Although I didn't think I had any and the poor guy who was administrator, like burst into tears and I'm like, why are they going to horrible person? And he's like, no, no, no, it's just that you have biases. I'm like, I'm not biased. I'm not racist. You know, I was just distraught.

And then to be honest, George Floyd happened here. Yes. And when I sat and watched that murder, I thought. Oh, I get it. I get what you've been trying and trying and trying to say that I could not see at all. And it made me really sad obviously for the moment at hand, but also we have been yelling and saying that things are different for us and you, you did not hear.

And I sure didn't. And to be intrinsically biased makes you feel like you've purposely done something wrong, but the intrinsic part I just realized, of course I'm biased. It's what I saw or allowed myself to see. And when you know better, you do better- the old Oprah saying from 20 years ago.

So Yeah. It was time to ask some questions and to look outside of what I knew and to at least be able to say, yeah, that's a whole different experience than I have. And the way they react is different than I would, because they grew up differently than I did. They have a different set of tools than I have.

And maybe my son tools. Isn't right. Let's look at that too. So our community resource center team, there's six of us on staff. And so it's been an interesting journey and we've been spending some time learning, which is always fun.  

Barbara: I really appreciate that car because I wouldn't have thought of you

 as a racist person, neither myself, but what is this bias that we might be carrying around first without even realizing it. And then second of all, being open to learning and just one practical example, I want to follow up with you. Can you say a little bit more about particular kinds of food maybe showing welcome or understanding?

Carrin: one just super simple example is having a bottle of hot sauce out. So for our family, having ketchup out is about a spicy as

Barbara: we can. I didn't have garlic until I went to college. I didn't even know what it was and now I put it in everything,

Carrin: you know, so having No, the rooster sauce, the Serratia out. So many of our families like things way hotter than the Scandinavian Germanic menu would have. So I did our family favorite child, main hot dish. And I  saw someone putting hot sauce on it. They like. What are you doing? And then I'm like, I would put salt on something, you know?

So it's just those little things that you don't think about. And then saying, what do you like? So it's as simple as that, I don't have to think of everything. I don't have to be the expert on everything because the experts are in front of me and I just have to be open to suggestions.

Barbara: I can't tolerate hot sauce. It's just embarrassing to admit, but I do know people that have it on literally everything and that's all right.

Carrin: Yeah, they use hot sauce and ranch are always sitting out because evidently ranches good on everything. Even cereal, salt. I who knew?

Barbara: Thank you. You had mentioned two elephants, but I think so far we've only talked about one.

Carrin: one is color and the other is intelligence- people think intelligence is equated with Lack of income.

Barbara: or success.

Carrin: or being stuck in a situation. And that's so far from the truth. Anything can happen to anyone at any time. And Starting there I think is really a good spot when you're working with people who need some help. Start with the idea that they know some stuff. That's not that you're going to come down and also they need some help. Navigating systems is really hard unless you do it.

I've been in a DMV in a new state where things were different than where I got my license in the old state. And you feel dumb and that's just getting a driver's license. So navigating governmental things especially can be really hard. And being an advocate for people is so important.

Barbara: And there are also different kinds of intelligences and different types of situations that might set someone quote behind.

So for example, for me, reading came easily. I can devour books, and I know for some folks reading is just planning out difficult, which is going to make school that much more difficult in terms of advancing through the grades and doing lots of reading and taking written exams have mild dyslexia. So math was always a challenge for me.

So I can't even imagine. For someone with more severe dyslexia or other types of neurological processing type issues, even reading with glasses. Scan you see the chalkboard? Well, I don't know if anybody uses checklists anymore, but I guess that can speak to my age. But I got glasses in elementary school and so

how is your vision, how is your hearing? So medical access, health insurance, there's huge systemic situations that I could go on a soapbox for a really long time about that. So starting off at the very youngest ages, are you sitting in your classroom on an empty stomach? Were you able to get sleep at night?

How's the home situation? And that has nothing to do with intelligence. In terms of how are you getting through your school day at the very youngest and then needing to work and having physical intelligence that I really don't have very much in terms of sports. So people used to in the olden days, I don't know if they do anymore.

Some people looked down on say a vocational training. But does everybody have to go to college?  Sometimes people are making more money after they complete a vocational training than someone who has a bachelor's degree, graduates will tons of debt and then needs to go on for even more education.

Carrin: The other prejudice that people have or bias is that there's a laziness and I have found the opposite to be true. Our families work. They work really hard. We have a lot of moms who are CNAs and it just doesn't make a livable wage. They can't afford childcare if they're doing that or rent here is really high.

So a one bedroom is about 1200 a month. Oh gosh. In the twin cities, it's very, very high. And for some

Barbara: people that's a mortgage, but then that comes from a different place. Again, do you have that bank account in that income that you'll even get a mortgage and minimum wage is not enough. People have to work two, three jobs on minimum wage, and then, like you said, childcare, or even transportation, are you taking a bus back and forth?

Is your transportation time that much longer to get from job to job?

Carrin: Yeah, so laziness typically isn't an issue There are some mental health issues. The other, not confined to low-income. I mean, there's the same mental health issues throughout the spectrum, but when you have some funds and a good health insurance policy, you can deal with some of those things more easily.

Barbara: Yeah. And access to both a counselor as well as not only the health insurance, like you mentioned, but medication. And that made me think when you're really prioritizing $1,200 a month in rent for a one bedroom and food. And do you need to buy a bus pass or your car, and then what's left in terms of clothing.

It's cold where you are. So people need winter gear and then you're taking a look at, okay, what's my copay. Do I have a deductible? Things like that. So how do you prioritize your expenses when it comes to what you need and what the family

Carrin: needs? There's a really fun game we play with volunteers with Jenga and on each block we write a different got sick $500 or, you know, and then you put, oh, need electricity.

And so as you pull those things out of the tower, how easily it can fall with just a few things coming out of your monthly stack.

Barbara: I love that you're showing some of the practical things because when I have pain in a certain body part, and my doctor says, well, you need to go get the scan or something.

I say, okay, fine. I'll get the scan. I'm worried. What is this pain that I'm having? And then you get the bill after the scan. And you're like, gosh, I thought I had a good insurance, but I have this deductible. I have this copay and I have a savings account. So I don't need these people calling me, chasing me down for this money.

And then eventually charging interest . So thank you for sharing some of those realities to train the volunteers. It can be really overwhelming. Yeah. Well then you just don't get the scan.  

Carrin: Yeah. And you just use the emergency room is your doctor because emergency rooms have to take you in.

Barbara: is there any other voice that's missing in this conversation about radical hospitality? And you have an example of faith-based groups helping a certain subset of the population, but who can we be listening to? Who can we make an effort to really hear more?

 Carrin: I think just the act of listening is key. I think we form ideas. We watch the news. We've already picked sides. Who's right. And who's wrong. One exercise that we've all been doing is set that aside and listen to something you wouldn't know normally here.

So okay. Then person's really irritating. They're really loud. I'm losing their message because I don't like the presentation. Make an effort to drop that and hear what they're saying. We've had the same conversation a million times. I know what my cousin is going to put on Facebook.

Try to get down to what they're saying. What is their fear? What is their reason for doing that?  I think we just need to listen to someone we wouldn't listen to normally. And try to hear what they're saying. We need to see it with fresh eyes, and then we don't always have to have an answer or a comeback, which is the hard part for me, the waiting, and then saying, what did you think of it this way? How about, I just think about it for awhile?

Barbara: I always have to be right. Do I always have to be educating somebody else?

Carrin: Yeah, exactly. And then I've been trying to answer people that I disagree with with this line: I am so happy that we disagree because the place where everyone agrees is wrong by the Taliban.

Is run by the Nazis is run by Stalin, a place where everyone has the exact same idea is really dangerous. So I don't agree with you, but I'm happy we don't because we need these ideas and it makes both of us think. And even if I'm not convinced, it makes other people think at least maybe you can embarrass them into it or at least encourage them to, okay, I'm going to think about this.

Would you too? But there has to start to be soliciting and not just listening, but really hearing and digging.

Barbara: I agree. And I might not be right. Imagine that I might have something to learn in this or to see it from a new perspective or to imagine I haven't had this problem and someone's dealing with it in a really creative way as best that they can.

So even if I might think this one way is better. It might not be, it might not be applicable.

Carrin: that's fabulous. I know we get the Nike argument because people will often say, well, their family, all their kids have Nike's and I can't afford Nike's for my kids. So how poor could they be?

And we just laughed because yup. They had an extra $200. It's not enough for rent. It's not enough for insurance. It's not enough for a car payment, but they can give their child something that other kids have and some enjoyment for something really cool. It was there one extravagance. So letting go

Barbara: of judgment to say, well, they have something fancy. And my family was very frugal. And in the end I can see the benefit of those lessons. But I was sad when I was a kid. Cause we had clothes from Bradley's and Kmart .

And there's nothing wrong with those clothes, but they weren't fashionable. So I was out. But how sad is it that kids and even grownups to a certain extent, judge each other on, is your stuff fashionable or not? It doesn't matter.

Carrin: Yeah. Are you covered?

Barbara: Exactly. Are you safe and warm, whether it's fashionable or not?

Yeah. Do you have any other resources that you can think of current that you'd like to share that folks can take a look at on their own and we'll also have them on the 40 minutes of faith.com website?

Carrin: Yeah, there is- it's 13 it's all the three hour documentary.

Okay. But it's really, really good on just seeing how we went from being a country that had slave ownership as a legal possibility to where we are today and how that journey went just legally. But it's really, really fascinating and there's other books and list of things.

Barbara: That's great. I can attach them all. Thank you for your time today.

Carrin: He was good to talk to you and to all your listeners out there that we don't see, but we know or listening. 

 Resources:

Hebrews 13:2

ELCA tool  idi https://spas-elca.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/IDI-Toolkit_web.pdf

Books:

• The Warmth of Other Suns , Isabel Wilkerson (This is fascinating and in novel form!!)

• The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America, Richard Rothstein

• From #BlackLivesMatter to Black Liberation, Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor

• In the Castle of My Skin, George Lamming

• The Fire Next Time, James Baldwin

• 13th (In this thought-provoking documentary, scholars, activists, and politicians analyze the criminalization of African Americans and the U.S. prison boom.)