Barbara: Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Kris Stashe, who was one of my faculty members at Wartburg theological seminary. And we've heard this before. I know. Most appropriate to call people with their title, the honors of their degrees, but the Warburg way is first names only. So welcome, Kris- how are things for you in Dubuque these days?
Kris: Things are going really well in Dubuque. The sun is shining. We are in the middle of summer, which makes things no less busy, but provides a different kind of room, which I enjoy. I like a change of rhythm every now and then.
Barbara: Great. I always think back to little kids think that they're school teachers just do nothing all summer. And that's the farthest from the truth, especially in academia and planning courses and summer events and well-deserved rest as well.
Kris: Yeah. We tried to squeeze our vacation in during those times. In between semesters since it doesn't really work well when teaching to take vacation in the middle of a semester.
Barbara: Exactly. Well, aside from being a faculty member at Wartburg, I wanted to let everyone know that Kris is a Kristian who identifies as Lutheran. And I love that. That's the first time I ever heard that phrase. The faith that Kris has held has always been in the air she breathes. From bedtime prayers to summer Bible camp, it was always there always expected and never questioned. It wasn't until she was living in another country during college, when she was asked for the first time, why do you spend 90 minutes each way to church on Sunday? And I would love it if you would like to let us know why, but just hold on just one second. Cause I've got a little bit more. Kris graduated from college with a degree in business, bought a Navy suit and a briefcase and was ready to interview for corporate jobs, when on a whim, she applied for a position to serve in Japan as a short-term missionary. She has felt called to ministry leadership.
Kris currently lives in Dubuque. She moved from the twin cities and aside from living in Denmark and Japan for a bit, she was born and raised and has lived in the Midwest her whole life. Kris’ dreams are more prayers. She prays for the health and wellbeing of people she loves and cares deeply about.
She used to have plans, but they would get disrupted and change whenever it was required. She dreams differently now, and she's more open to where the holy spirit guides or pushes her. So we're going to get to our Bible verse in a minute, Kris, but do you have any follow-up information for us about this 90 minutes to church each way, and maybe your time overseas as well?
Kris: Oh man, we could do a whole 40 minutes on just commuting to church. My junior year of college, I had a beautiful opportunity to study in Denmark and I didn't speak Danish, but I was very interested in the Danish culture. So I chose to live with a Danish family, but my Danish wasn't strong enough to be worshiping in that language. So I went to the English speaking church in the center of Copenhagen, which required a walk to the bus stop, a bus to the train station, a train into Copenhagen, and then another six blocks to the church or so, and that took about 90 minutes each way. And my family that I was living with just didn't understand why I would spend so much turning to get to a church and spend less than an hour.
Barbara: I suspect it nourished your soul.
Kris: It did. And you know, back then I didn't have the language to describe that craving. I had to be in community and I sought it out and I hadn't realized what an important role it had in my life up to that time. Cause it would have been very easy for me to say, Hey, I can wait until I get back home.
Barbara: That's right. That's really quite a chunk of time. Although I suspect also that the countryside was beautiful to look at while you were there. I've been to Denmark and I'm fortunate because I did my junior year abroad in Vienna, but I was already on the train system. So I didn't have to walk to the bus first to get to the train. It was easier for me to get to an English speaking service there.
Kris: Just the fact that I can live in a town outside of the city, on the far edges of a town and still make it anywhere with public transportation is just a huge gift.
Barbara: I was absolutely thrilled when you had mentioned Jeremiah chapter 29, because that's my favorite verse too.
And I've also heard sometimes people have different thoughts about this first. So I thought, you know what? This is great. Even though we didn't plan this podcast about leadership and boundaries and faith-based volunteering kind of things to be about this verse, let's start here, see where it goes and then take it from there.
I would love to read for everyone, Jeremiah chapter 29, verses 11 to 14 from the new international version: 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.[a] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”
I would love to hear your thoughts and feelings on this first, Kris.
Kris: Oh boy, there's so many. Can I start with the story that verse started playing a more active role in my life? My husband and I have chosen to form our family through adoption and we have done foster parenting in and amongst the family formation and the family growing that has happened in our home. And at one point we had a child who had been placed for adoption in our home. And some things happened legally outside of our control and we felt like we were losing him.
And so that verse, I started praying when I went to bed at night, I went into his room and put my hand on his head and prayed that verse. And it was a way for me to kind of big my toes in the sand, if you will, to remember that, I believe in a God of hope and love and goodness. And it was a way for me to remind myself of that.
The God I prayed to was a God of the present as much as the God of the future. And now, because I prayed that verse over and over and over for many, many months, when somebody says, what's your favorite verse? I don't even really think about it anymore. Out of my mouth pops, Jeremiah 29 11, even though that happens such a long time ago, I think it's just part of my DNA these days.
Barbara: Thank you so much. And I know that some folks want to caution against a prosperity gospel, which my understanding of that is that we don't say, Hey, look at how great my life is. God must be, bestowing favor upon me, even if it's true that we do have blessings from God. But the opposite of that also, isn't true.
Oh, my life is in shambles. That must mean that God doesn't care about me. Do you have any other thoughts on that way of viewing this particular verse? God does have plans for us, but it's not always going to be easy or prosperous.
Kris: and we don't always know what they are and we may never know what they are.
But I think in praying that verse for me, it wasn't so much about determinism as much as it's just an openness to know that God is present and God is good and God is leading and I need to be open to possibilities. I need to be ready for the unexpected. I may never have answers definitively to any of my prayers, but I know my prayers are always heard.
And I know that through prayer, I opened myself up to God's presence in ways that I may not expect otherwise. I think that's what the first is for me, it's a posture of prayer. More than it is a guarantee.
Barbara: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I treasure this verse also. So I sometimes feel kind of defensive when I hear people sort of admonishing about the verse. And I don't know if this is a common thought, but I have participated in Bible studies where some authors feel that even though we are not the people currently in Babylon, which is the exile that's referenced in this verse, that in some ways, people of faith might be an exile even where they are now. Yes, our times are different, but in some ways, our times could be similar.
Kris: Well, and it talks about who we believe God is. What God is capable of in even our own limited understanding. And some days I just need to remind myself of that
Barbara: me too, all day, every day.
Kris: And it also reminds me that God creates for good. In that, even in the midst of when it seems like we're surrounded by evil. And that gives me hope.
Barbara: Thank you. And we'll see if we can incorporate that passage into the rest of our conversation, or there could be other verses that come up when we're talking about leadership and boundaries and faith-based environments, because what I'm really trying to do is cram an entire semester of graduate school into a half an hour conversation, which of course is ridiculous and utterly impossible.
But I really enjoyed the course that I took on leadership. And some of the content was familiar from my social work profession in terms of boundaries. But I have had experiences in the past and I know many people have before when we're talking about volunteering and giving of ourselves and being asked to give, and I've had other podcasts about Sabbath.
So how do we create a practice of loving God and loving our neighbor and taking care of ourselves in a way that honors God in our family and ourselves and our creation?
Kris: So what are we at 22 minutes now? I want to start with boundaries because I think too often people hear that word and what they think of is barriers and protective fields, which I can understand that. But when I use the word boundaries, I think of practices we have in place so that relationships can thrive. And I think boundaries differ depending on the nature of the relationship we have. Sometimes boundaries mean separation, whether permanent or temporary.
Sometimes boundaries provide opportunity for engagement. Sometimes boundaries help provide definition for the nature of a relationship. So the example I use in school is I have a different sets of boundaries with my students than I do with my husband or with my colleagues. And those boundaries are in place so that the nature of the relationship I have with my students can thrive in the way I'm called as their teacher. And the nature of my relationship with my husband can thrive as I'm called to be. And it's not about prioritizing one over the other as much as it is helping to define so that our relationships can be flourishing as God created them to be.
Now, sometimes boundaries need to be in place for literally physical protection. Yes, emotional protection and all of the other kinds of spiritual protection. And those boundaries are going to be very different. And sometimes we need help to put those boundaries into place. Whether they are the legal profession legal services or friendships.
So boundaries are big and they're wide, but they help us thrive as individuals, but they also help us thrive as communities as they help us understand the nature of our relationships within those communities.
Barbara: I suspect that some people don't care for the word boundaries and others don't especially care to be on the receiving end of boundaries. And I'm wondering if there is a best practice or recommendation in terms of how can we approach this? In this case, faith-based manner- that we're setting boundaries and it's not just to be unkind, or people sometimes say, oh, you're just being rude or selfish- that there's some healthier ways to look at this topic.
Kris: sometimes we can set boundaries without ever even using the word. Sometimes boundaries are mutual and sometimes they're not. It's possible to be on the receiving end of a boundary without even knowing somebody's put a boundary in place. And so whether somebody uses the word boundary or not, I think people need to understand what they are.
Ultimately more important than how we talk about them and having them in place is more important than whether or not you're comfortable with the word boundary.
Barbara: I'm thinking of just an ordinary person who might be listening, who might have volunteered in a faith based community for many years. And who might be wondering, how do I practice self care? In a way that will then allow me to keep volunteering and not just volunteer until I fall on my face or have a heart attack or something like that.
Kris: So volunteering is really a beautiful gift and the whole point of volunteering it's not just our own fulfillment, but really it's about how do we serve God through our neighbor?
But volunteering is one way we serve God. Or volunteering in a particular capacity is one way. We also serve God by our family relationships, our household relationships, our professional relationships. And I think it's important for people to understand that God calls us to many different ways of living out our vocation on earth and not just one way.
And so boundaries then help us define each of those. So that we can remain whole in our identity as a child of God and our identity, isn't grounded in just one of those particular relationships over and against all of the others. And for me being whole is understanding myself bigger than just a role as a teacher or a volunteer, or even as a mother, I'm more and my call to how I am a mother changes over time, depending on the age and needs of my children. And so the boundaries I set are very different with my 23 year old than they are with my seven-year-old. And so knowing that we're bigger than any one role or one title or one responsibility helps us understand what it means to take care of ourselves. I think it gives us a reason to take care of ourselves.
Barbara: I'm curious how you learned about this over the years. Obviously you have been in academia as a student and then as a faculty member, and I know you're doing research in faith-based leadership. So how can people figure this out?
Either just a regular person, trying to figure out how they create this in their own lives, or from a congregation wanting to not burn their people out.
Kris: I learned from many different kinds of sources. I learn through experience, but usually I learned more from bad experiences. Those tend to stick with me longer.
I've learned through trusted colleagues and mentors in speaking to them about how I processed certain situations. I learned through authors and books and reading. I started doing some work on boundaries during a sabbatical. My last sabbatical must've been seven years ago and I really wanted to see what Martin Luther had to say about it. So I just did some reading on that.
And so I think we need to see our teachers as multiple sources. And when we feel like we don't know what to do, we need to seek out those people we trust and respect. And have them help us as conversation partners. They might not know what to do, but they can ask some really good questions sometimes that help us process it and helps us step out of our own brains.
Sometimes what we really need is somebody who has no clue what's going on and just space trustworthy space to process.
Barbara: And when you use the word space that even made me think of space in my own life, because I had an experience where someone said, but it doesn't take that long to do this thing that I'm asking you to do.
And I felt like it was about to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back because it was already involved with so much. Emotionally maxed out as well and working and trying to get enough sleep. So it's true, the one thing didn't take that much time, but are we allowed to leave some space, some margins in our lives, in our schedules?
Kris: Well, and I'm just beginning to learn about emotional fields and emotional energy and emotional responsibilities. And so if somebody asks me to do something, it's usually more than just a task I can accomplish. I like to think about that task. I like to make sure I'm prepared for that task, and there comes a responsibility as well.
I think you're right. I don't think we take that into consideration when we say yes and no. And I think it's more than even just saying yes and no. Because too often, yes and no, come from just time, but saying yes and no is about more than just whether or not we have the time.
Barbara: at the risk of me sounding at the time, perhaps selfish, I felt like I was just protecting myself, not from a meltdown. I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but just from exhaustion and grumpiness. So maybe I sounded grumpy at the time, but it wouldn't have necessarily been a good service to God. And I felt like I was already volunteering in a number of other capacities.
Kris: here's an example in that situation, and this isn't applicable for every situation, but if somebody I really care about asks me to do something and I know I can't do it, I might say no. Or I might say, you know, that's something I really wish I could help you with, but now's not the right time. I wish I could say yes, but today I can't say yes to that. There's a way that we can say no, that honors the nature of the relationship, that doesn't sacrifice ourselves. But also says, you know, my heart wants to say yes. But right now, I can't say yes. And that's part of that is all going to depend on the nature of the relationship I have with the individual as well. Sometimes I'm in situations where I really don't care. So I'll just say, no, thank you. And that's not about a person, but just sometimes that's all the energy I have.
Barbara: now that I've just asked you a bunch of questions about setting boundaries and volunteering and things like that, sometimes on the other side of leadership, people are encouraged to delegate. And so delegating is how can I share these tasks, this whole ministry, this mission with other people?
And some of that is then inviting others to join in, to share in this delegating. And so that's almost the flip side. How can we delegate while at the same time honoring the boundaries that people might need to set? Because leadership, I believe, should be about delegating to a certain extent.
Kris: there's 1,001 scenarios that we could go in with that. But as I think about my responsibilities and the world of delegation, there are some times where I just need somebody to do something for me, but I need it done the way I would do it. Those are task driven. They're descriptive. And there are other times when I need to invite people- it could be a task. It could be a program. It could be an idea. So I'm going to use the word idea- into an idea where it's not so much me telling them what to do and them doing it, but me inviting them into a shared process of accomplishing something. Which is very different than me saying, I need you to do it. And could you do it this way? Sometimes we confuse the two. We think we're asking somebody to do something in a certain way, but the other person thinks we're inviting them into a conversation or they just might do it their way. And then we get into disappointment, frustration, and that we start to control things.
I'm just going to do it my way. I'm just going to do it from now on it's easier than me delegating because nobody ever does it my way. So those two situations require two different sets of boundaries and they require communication so that those shared boundaries are understood mutually.
If I use the word boundary in those scenarios, I think people would assume that I'm protecting myself from them or that there's a problem, when in fact I'm using the word boundary to help define a shared set of expectations, right? So that we can both accomplish what we need to accomplish and not get frustrated with each other.
And so sometimes a boundary clearly defined, it's just a form of communication. What do I expect from you? What do you expect from me? Sometimes those can be articulated other times.
Barbara: Is this a collaboration with some planning and discussion and timeframe boundaries, maybe even this is a long-term kind of visioning thing, or this is just a short term?
And then also, like you said, has it always been done this one way? And therefore we need to keep always doing it the same way or is there room for some creative thought? And I've even joked with people about, we can argue about how to correctly fold the bath towels or how to load the dishwasher.
Kris: I should say when my 13 year old empties the dishwasher, puts things away, but I want them to do it my way. I need to stand there and make sure he puts things in the right places if I want it done. And it's a task that I've delegated. I've got to make sure he does it to the best of his ability, but if the spoons are in the wrong place, Spoons are in the wrong drawer.
Barbara: So how can we let go and just have some grace about it? And if it's just a matter of, Nope, nobody else can do it as well as I can? Okay. Then you're probably going to be pretty tired from doing it all yourself.
Kris: for some people, the dishwasher emptying the dishwasher and this is not me. It's a form of a spiritual practice. It's a form of relaxation. I am a strange one. I love to fold towels. I love to fold clean laundry. In some respects, folding clean laundry is spiritual. It fills me with gratitude for water, for soap, that I don't have to leave the house. The fact that I have family members for whom I get to fold their clothes.
I know I'm strange. And oh, that's a wonderful thing. What a weirdo, but for me, it's a spiritual practice. And so that's not a job I delegate ever.
My family can empty the dishwasher every day.
Barbara: I'm wondering what I haven't asked yet? That might be on your mind in terms of leadership or boundaries or self-care that may be applicable and face situations, but doesn't necessarily have to be.
Kris: one thing we haven't talked about as much is about the role of the holy spirit. And it's not so much that I have a lecture or a sermon to prepare here for, but I think when it comes to human relationships, we need to understand that the space that happens in relationships and in community is first and foremost centered in who Christ is, and what God is up to in those relationships and those entities.
I'm not one who believes just pray and it'll be fixed. I do believe that our attention to prayer draws us in to the presence of God in different ways. And sometimes when we're drawn into the presence of God, it helps us either see things differently, notice different ways of approaching it.
Maybe opens our eyes to other conversation partners or trustworthy spaces to process. And that's something that I'm working on in my head. Right. And as I think back to my opening story about praying Jeremiah 29:11. I think that's what was happening. And I didn't even realize it. Maybe it wasn't even so much the words that I was praying as much as it was the fact that I was praying, acknowledging God's presence in this relationship, this very vulnerable relationship I have with my child at that time.
And maybe that's what carried me through. Maybe I could have been praying anything. And it's not that I was crying that opened up my heart and my mind to possibly even possibilities that would disappoint me.
Barbara: And I really want to encourage people to plan for some surprises, because I would prefer to pray for clear discernment, like a neon sign with an arrow, and that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it's the still small voice. Just, how do you figure this stuff out? What if you have five fantastic opportunities, but that might be too much, how do you pick?
I was part of a group one time that had focus areas of what do I need to be paying attention to in my life? And then the leader suggested that we have one focus area for unknown, and I called it the holy spirit. I drew a little picture of a flame as my symbol for that- you could call it magic or mystery or fate or whatever, any kind of word, whatever you feel. But for me, no doubt, it was the holy spirit. And let me tell you, I got holy spirited. This was when I was applying to Wartburg in 2019 and I didn't even know I was applying to Warburg.
I didn't know I was going to be going and we moved and it's like, whoa, when you invite in the holy spirit, just be aware. I'm not saying that everybody else is going to be moving across an ocean and going to seminaries if they do that, but the answers could be pretty unexpected and they could also be exactly what you said as well.
I thought that this was going to happen and it's not happening. Or this is falling apart , and that's okay, too.
Kris: that goes back to that comment, what dreams do I have? And I don't have dreams so much as prayers. Cause I think of dreams as concrete. And I have goals for my life.
I have dreams for my life, but I also have an openness to, okay, God, I'm getting this direction. I'm open to whatever you need me to head in, but I couldn't do that alone. My husband and I spend a lot of time talking about that and just being okay. We don't know what tomorrow will look like, but we'll be there and we'll show up.
And that's kind of what my prayers are. Quite often I'll show up. I'm just going to trust that God, you're going to be there with me and it's going to be for good. And even though I don't know what that looks like, I'll show up.
Barbara: One of my questions I like to ask is whose voice is missing? And I'm wondering if you've observed cultural differences, or I don't want to use the word personality really, but even your areas of the Midwest, say Denmark, Japan, around this idea of boundaries and leadership and volunteering in a church based setting. Are there some ways that we can be more aware of and understanding of each other and not just take for granted everybody's going to think the way I think?
Kris: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, understanding boundaries is every much as a cultural issue, a language issue, a personal experience issue- are there voices missing? The only voice I have is my voice and my experience. Every voice is missing from that.
And so I that's part of why I think we have a responsibility to find a conversation partners to help us think outside of our own perspective, to read authors on the topic from other experiences, other cultures. I think that's a given, Barbara, otherwise I'll always only be stuck in my own head.
And I have to be ready to learn because I've taught boundaries in a class and had students come up to me sometimes a little upset or hurt cause their interpretation of my use of the word boundaries or the examples I've used have been not helpful for them. And I am grateful for those students because it helps me learn and it helps me realize that sometimes language I use or stories I share aren’t always helpful. And I'm always a student. I will always be a student and I think students teach me more than any other out there.
Barbara: So, and there's plenty of examples to be learned about just general cultural differences with boundaries, even when it comes to personal space or eye contact or physical touch. And granted we've just had COVID, but in terms of even do we stand in line and kind of neat and orderly, or do we all kind of smush our way around? So there are so many examples.
And I also want to name that I may be talking about things that sound like white privilege when I'm saying Sabbath time. Having some space around my schedule and where I know that many people are just working 24 hours a day and just always giving, giving, giving. So not to not to say that one or the other is better or worse.
Kris: Absolutely. Well, even different cultures have different expectations for somebody who's called a grandmother or a teacher or a pastor. And too often we enter into those relationships with assumptions that we need to break open.
Barbara: Are there any places that you can think of in the Bible that talk about either boundaries or leadership or, I'm sure the word volunteering isn't in there explicitly, but just in terms of any further guidance or thoughts for folks today around this topic?
Kris: a couple years ago I wrote an article about boundaries called vocation and I used Moses call story as kind of a scaffolded for that. I and that's in a book called Sustaining Grace. But just a few weeks ago, I was at a conference, an international research consortium on zoom. And we dwelled in the word, which is a form of Lectio Divina.
At the end of Mark one where Jesus is leaving the temple, goes to a house, cures the mother-in-law, everybody hears about it and comes to be there. And then the next morning Jesus gets up. And I have never focused on this person till a couple of weeks ago. So this is something that I'm still playing with and, and listening to it. Goes out to pray.
Then Jesus, the disciples find him and say, Hey, we've been looking everywhere for you. Everybody wants you. They want Jesus to heal them. And then cast out demons- and Jesus doesn't say no, wait, leave me alone. Jesus doesn't say, okay, I'm coming. Let's go where everybody needs. Jesus says let's continue on with the work that I'm called to do.
Let's move on to the next town. So Jesus stays focused. Jesus engages in spiritual practices. He sets up boundaries for what he can and can't do at that particular time. At that particular place, boundaries are very specific to time and place. And he carries on with what God calls him to do. And I love that. It's a passage that I need to spend more time in.
Barbara: Great. Thank you so much for your time today.
Kris: Thank you, Barbara. It's been a delightful conversation.
Resources:
Jeremiah 29:11-14
Sustaining Grace by Hagley, Rohrer & Gehrling (editors)
Mark 1:35
