Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Olli Bergh. I met Ollie at Wartburg theological seminary in Dubuque, Iowa, where he's studying to become a Lutheran Pastor. He didn't grow up with much faith- his dad was Christian, but his mom wasn't religious at all. Ollie came to Christianity because of getting a job at a Lutheran church as a choir director, then he was baptized, heard the call while helping out with communion and went to seminary. Before that he had some minor theater gigs as an actor in the semipro theaters in Portland, but he has so far been a lifelong student.
Ollie's from Portland, Oregon, lived in Berkeley, California, and currently lives in Anchorage, Alaska. He's married with a little one on the way. Ollie's dreams are to hopefully be a beloved parish pastor, and to write some kind of theology book.
Welcome, how are things in life?
Ollie: it's really rainy here and that's actually weird- it's usually pretty dry and then it's either dry or snowy. Last year, fall was two weeks long- this year we're actually getting a fall. So that's nice.
Barbara: Well, I hope the rain will do some good and not end up causing harm. It seems like it's either a drought or a flood and we just want things kind of right in the middle.
So we're going to be taking a look today at some interesting things having to do with health and what we eat and drink and what the Bible has to say about it and what the Lutheran church has to say about it and our common sense, and maybe kind of how it feels to be having some health issues from time to time.
Today's Bible verse is from first Corinthians chapter eight. So for those of you who are going to look up first Corinthians, it's a book after the gospels. So it's towards the end of your Bible. I'm going to read excerpts from a longer passage that talks about what kind of food we can eat. Here's first Corinthians chapter eight, verses eight to nine, and verses 11 to 13 from the message.
“But fortunately God doesn't grade us on our diet. We're neither commended when we clean our plate nor reprimanded when we just can't stomach it. But God does care when you use your freedom carelessly in a way that leads a fellow believer, still vulnerable to those old associations to be thrown off track Christ gave up his life for that person.
Wouldn't you at least be willing to give up, going to dinner for him. Because as you say, it doesn't really make any difference, but it does make a difference. If you hurt your friend, terribly risking his eternal ruin. When you hurt your friend, you hurt Christ a free meal here and there isn't worth it at the cost of even one of these weak ones.
So never go to these idol- tainted meals if there's any chance it will trip up one of your brothers or sisters.” Ollie, there is so much important stuff in these verses. How do you understand these instructions to us?
Ollie: for me, it's about what do we do with our gospel freedom? Yes. And especially coming from the United States, we talk about freedom all the time. You sure. But we talk about freedom as an end and actually freedom is a means. And so we have to think about what we do with it. We have to actually use our brains.
Barbara: Imagine that.
Ollie: that's the really exciting thing about this passage is Paul is saying that we should use our freedom, our food freedom, which for Jewish people it was a big deal. It still is a big deal.
Barbara: rules in Deuteronomy Leviticus and other places.
Ollie: And Paul is saying, when we're free to eat whatever we want, this is something Jesus gave us, but don't do that.
Barbara: by the way, here's some other things to keep in mind.
Ollie: So that's the fun of it for me is, I think for a lot of us, when we read the Bible, we get to this point of, okay, we have this freedom, but then there's this next step. And that's what we have to think about.
Barbara: Excellent. And we'll be taking a look at some examples together. Our faith denomination has a document called a social statement about caring for health. I'll include a detailed blink to that on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com.
I'm not going to read the entire 28-page document right now. Just some excerpts. So on page three, it says “because human beings are mortal suffering and death are part of our lives. Perfect health eludes us. Although health depends in part on individual behavior. It's also to a significant degree beyond individual control.
Many factors contribute to health or its absence, genetics, physical and social environments, individually, well behaviors and access to care.” And what really hit me over the head in a good way is on page 35. It says “imperfect health, which is as good as state of health as we ever have, does not mean we are forsaken by God.”
It seems to me that part of American culture is a vision of perfection. Even if it's artificial or untrue. How did you feel when you received a recent diagnosis of diabetes?
Ollie: I literally felt like I had sinned against God. I felt awful. I remember when I was little, elementary school, I had a teacher who her son was diabetic. And I think what she was trying to do was educate kids on how, Hey, it's totally okay to be diabetic. You know, there's nothing different about that here. Let's prick the finger and show you how that is. And instead of being this like warm, welcoming thing, to me, it was terrifying, so bad and just the teacher did it and her son did it. And I was like, I don't want any of that. No, no, please. No. And so, I think God laughed and then 20 years later, I got diagnosed with type two diabetes and I just instantly remembered that moment and, and how afraid I was and how this is something that I've been trying to avoid, but I hadn't been eating well.
I've been consoling myself in food and trying to deal with the stresses of living in Berkeley, California, and the stresses of being in a new city being a new kind of person. Right. I was only recently Christian. I had moved to Berkeley to go to seminary and taking on all these new, different things, new people, maybe people that I wasn't friends with him immediately. It takes a while and I was just eating a lot.
Barbara: Which is pretty normal. You're not alone.
Ollie: I woke up, one day I was starting to develop what they're called xanthomas when your cholesterol is so high, that your cholesterol needs somewhere to go. So you get bumps. I go to the doctor. I have diabetes. Wow.
Barbara: Sounds like it was a big shock and now we're dealing with the ramifications and I feel bad because I am avoiding gluten and dairy products, but I imagine that there's more workarounds for me. Like I can make gluten-free baked goods, but I can't figure out how to do a sugar substitute. In your case, have you gotten some good advice? Is it still as devastating now as it was when you first found out?
Ollie: Not devastating. I've been able to figure out a lot of substitutes. The hard part is that carbs are carbs, you know? And I kind of told myself this story, Oh, if I switched from the regular pasta to the lentil pasta, you know,
Barbara: we did that too.
Ollie: I was like, Oh, that'll fix everything. No, it it's still carbs. They're better carbs. But they're still gonna affect my sugars. The hard part is snacks. All snacks are carbs. I haven't figured out a good solution- cheese and meat is good, but you get sick of that eventually.
Barbara: Well, let's keep it exploring this because there's a lot of different angles, including the Bible verse and the social message. One word that's not in today's passage but is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible is fasting.
What are your thoughts about fasting for health or faith reasons? Especially as it might relate to requirements around our health situations.
Ollie: the first thing when we think about fasting is be careful because it's trendy right now, and when things are trendy, they get out of hand because intermittent fasting, for some people, it is a good health, but for a lot of people, it might not be. As a diabetic, I can't. But fasting is a really important part of our calling as Christians that, especially as Protestants, we've lost because, for instance, Luther, in his small catechism, talks about how to prepare for going to communion. And he says fasting is a fine principle because a lot of people would fast and that's how they would prepare. It's a good way to do it because when we fast, if we think of it, as we are entering into the suffering of the world, right,
Barbara: I'm not going to eat. And some of my siblings around the world literally don't have enough food. They don't have a cupboard that they're denying themselves.
Ollie: Exactly, so we who are lucky are saying, symbolically I can stand in solidarity with them, but I do this in freedom.
Barbara: Nobody's forcing me to, I'm not trying to earn points to get into heaven.
Ollie: exactly. And it's good because we're imitating Christ. And then as we're imitating Christ, we've been fasting. We go up to the table and Saint Augustine says we receive the body of Christ. And we remember that we have nothing. We go up with empty hands and is placed in our hands. Is everything- a great gift. That's why we have that freedom - you and I are maybe health compromised. We just have to adapt our fast.
Barbara: So rather than not eat any food for prolonged periods of time, that might throw us out of whack.
Ollie: We instead should, eat maybe just the minimum during our fast, just the minimum.
Barbara: Which is fairly un-American unless you're in a tough financial situation and literally don't have enough food.
Ollie: Right. And that's interesting too, because sometimes when we get really poor in America, the cheapest food is the worst food for us. McDonald's, you know? And so even when we have to think about eating the right thing, maybe that's our fast, instead of eating less, we just eat right.
Barbara: Caring for the body that God has given us to the best of our abilities.
I'm going to actually broaden this a little bit because even though the passage in Corinthians talks about meat, the ELCA social statement has a few sentences on some other things that I'd love to get your take on. On page seven it says "each of us has responsibility to be a good steward of his or her own health out of thankfulness for the gift of life. And in order to serve God and the neighbor, this means taking effective steps to promote health and prevent illnesses and disease. For example, eating well, getting adequate exercise and sleep, avoiding use of tobacco and abusive drugs, limiting alcohol and using car seat restraints.
It means balancing responsibility for health, with other responsibilities. It also means seeking care as needed, recognizing that the disability disease and illness do occur even to those who are good stewards of their health." How about that?
Ollie: you know, it's funny because it's really spot on and maybe it's almost obvious, right?
Barbara: Yeah. But did we do it?
Ollie: it's funny how we are trying our best to do something, we're trying to exercise, we're trying to eat right. And then all of a sudden, for me, it's always about Wednesday or Thursday I realize, how did I get out control?
Yesterday it's like, I ate six different pasta dishes. How did – WHY?- and I looked at my blood sugars and I go, I know this is bad. What's going on? So it's a conscious thing. And also it's a commandment and I know, we talk about freedom and we talk about where as Lutherans and we're worried about law. I want to know what should we do? if my doctor is quite literally being like, Hey, you need to eat right. You need to exercise. If my church is saying, Hey, you need to eat right. You need to exercise
Barbara: that to me also sounds like the Bible verse about not leading our siblings astray. And one of my friends in college actually didn't drink. And the reason for it was this verse that some people have a hard time controlling their drinking and to create an environment where in, I talked with Michelle about this in a different episode.
Can you actually have fun without alcohol? Can you have moderation that doesn't result in kind of stumbling down the street? So how about leading our siblings astray with our own behavior around consumption?
Ollie: we can definitely think of that part as our invitation of Christ are emptying out. I've been really dwelling and Philippians too lately. It's the solution to me for everything. And I see a lot of, Philippians two in here of that self-emptying of Jesus and that we are graciously joining in.
When we say I am going to help my neighbor by not drinking too much or drinking at all. I think the same principle is the principle that the reformers had in mind when they said let the priests marry. You know, maybe there's a freedom to do anything we want, which is kind of radical if you say that about drugs. Yeah. But we shouldn't.
Barbara: Well, the greatest commandment is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
Ollie: So how do we love our neighbor? We first treat ourselves right with what we put in our mouths, because if we do that, then at least we're thinking about someone else when we do it. If we won't do it for ourselves, do it for someone else, that that's always helped me.
Barbara: We need food to live. So what about optional foods and beverages instead of what we just need to survive? We need the basic nutrients that our doctors and nutritionists are recommending to us. And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff. I have some cake on your birthday or whatever- I bet those six pasta dishes were fantastic, but I'm thinking more consuming that we really don't need to be consuming. And it seems to me like, you go to a restaurant and you get a portion that's the size of a frying pan.
Ollie: Orthodox monks are really good at keeping the fast, cause it's sort of like their full time occupation in a way. And they always right before the end of the year, we'll eat like a little piece of cheese, which is prohibited from the fast so that no one can say that they kept the fast, right.
Barbara: So it's not works righteousness. It's not proving how good I am.
Ollie: Exactly. You should eat birthday cake, especially if it's your birthday or if it's your friend’s birthday, I got the big piece of cake, right? I'm not gonna deny it. I probably should eat the small piece of cake. But food is not just nutrients, there's something de-humanizing about thinking of food as nutrients. Because I'm sure Jesus didn't eat just because you got to eat. we know Jesus went to weddings. There was probably some feasting there. So I think part of our call is to enjoy one another and that might mean eating out a little bit. But of course we have to be aware of our health. And part of our health is our social health of eating too.
Barbara: we do make choices on our own dealing with food and social expectations, but I'm thinking church potluck dinners, outdoor get-togethers and people are saying, try my homemade whatever it is. And so then that involves our neighbors might not think we're loving them if I'm like, no, no, no, I can't. Thank you for offering me this, whatever it is. There's some social aspects too, of you say, love your neighbor. But sometimes we have to set limits.
Ollie: if you can figure out a great way to balance that, you should publish a book because I'm a people pleaser. And I do want to try it because I love food and I want to make someone happy. But sometimes it turns into, am I trying this, or am I eating another meal? Cause it's been foisted upon us. But that shows something really amazing about Jesus and how Jesus works through us is that food is more than just food- it's a pumpkin pie. Pumpkin pie is a whole story.
Barbara: Yes.
Ollie: My mom hates pumpkin pie. She makes it every year. I love pumpkin pie. And that's a whole story that we can kind of share together, which is why we go up to the table and eat a meal because we're sharing in that story. And Jesus says, here, this is going to be my body. This bread, because bread is a whole story. A meal is community.
And a challenge too, because we eat too much, or we don't eat right. And that's also part of the story. We can't deny that bit.
Barbara: It's really hard. I've been to various different weight loss meetings and techniques and stuff. And sometimes they say, can you just eat one spoonful? Does the 10th spoonful taste any better than the first spoonful? Does the 10th spoonful taste any different?
And if it's the same, then do you really need 10 spoonfuls? But even sometimes if you had 10 different spoonfuls of 10 different desserts, that's probably not good either. So how do we say to someone I care about you, whoever it is that made this delicious dish, and I'm also trying to take care of myself?
We talked a little bit about superficiality and perfection, and then on the other end of the spectrum, you have, of course I'm going to eat all of this. Cause I want to make all these other people happy. Well, and it tastes good, but I'm going to suffer the consequences.
Ollie: I really like what you just said there about really what we need to do is enjoy the person. Yeah, they're giving you this food, but isn't that just the same way of saying also like this here is my body too, we do this too. Jesus says, this is my body. Here's some bread. And, the lady at church says, this is my body. Here is some jello salad, you know? And I say this because, as a preacher man, I can think of really good things to say, but do I practice this?
No, I'm bad at it.
Barbara: when you're at a potluck, at least it's easier wandering around the room - someone gave me a plate one time and half the stuff on it I wouldn't have picked for myself, but they were trying to be nice to me.
And so I was just able to wander around and it was just a little paper plate full, and I put a napkin on top of it and got rid of the stuff that I knew wasn't good for me, cause I didn't want to embarrass the lady who was trying to be nice to me, but it's harder when you're at someone's house around the table; this whole social statement is also designed to facilitate conversations.
It doesn't have to be in a church, but can we talk about this and maybe auntie so-and-so or grandma, so and so. Maybe grandpa's do this too, but usually it's the grandma. maybe it's not gonna work with them, but in general, can we have a conversation about what are we having at church?
I love donuts and they're a huge temptation and they're not good for me. They're not good for anybody, but it's easier when you have painful consequences later from eating something. But if you don't have painful consequences and you're just like, Oh, I know this isn't good for me, it's harder to resist.
Ollie: I'm really good at forgetting about the pain that I suffered. So then I'm like, I'll be fine. You know, this same conversation about what we eat at fellowship is not just about health, also about race. And it just shows that actually this question is hard, no matter how we approach it, for some reason, eating together after church is a lightning rod because somebody says, well, what about abuela brings tamales? Then someone's like, but does that mean we can't have jello salad? Then someone says, well, we need to eat healthy. What about the carrot cake? I don't know how we have this conversation.
Barbara: I don’t like to sound like I'm judging all these people who are pushy with food.
I'm trying to protect myself and trying to not hurt their feelings. But we also judge in the other direction. And on page eight of the social statement, it says “we should take care not to blame people for their health problems, and work to minimize both the stress of coping and the potentially isolating stigma of some conditions. Most of all, we stand ready to be present with and care for those who suffer, whatever, the reason.”
Ollie: that sounds just like Paul.
Barbara: Lots of judgment going around all over the place. We're so good at that. And that's not our job- maybe to care for each other to alert each other.
Ollie: there's this ethical vision I think in Christianity that we can't do in this world and it's that we would always be so pointed outside of ourselves. Like I would always be so worried about you, Barbara, that I would never worry about myself because you're worried about me, you're caring for me.
And so I don't have to worry about mine because I can worry about yours. It's impossible because we're broken and that judgment is so strong.
Barbara: And are you called to disregard your own health in the interest of others? And some people might say yes, but in your blog you wrote I'm called to be diabetic.
How am I going to serve other people if my diabetes is raging out of control? And for a while, you can probably get by with a lot of different health situations, but eventually it's gonna catch up to you.
Ollie: and that's the thing is I heard that call from someone whose job it is to care about me, my doctor. I said in that blog, that means that it is a commandment coming from the voice of God. And it's my personal opinion because the way that I can care about others' needs is actually a self-sacrificing thing is by worrying about my diet.
I think of my baby on the way, so every time I check my blood sugar, I can think of her. And I can think of my wife. It's never helped me to think of myself.
Barbara: you to do it for other people. Cause you want to be around for her high school graduation, God willing, and many years after that, too. But we don't know the hour of our final calling for any of us either. But if this is something that someone who's a subject matter expert, you doctor said, this is what you need to do medically to care for what God has given you, then let's do that.
Ollie: People whose jobs it is to know about this stuff. We should listen to them.
Barbara: systems are really important to me too. I have a question about that for you. On page 13 of the social statement, it says “health care as a shared endeavor entails a comprehensive and coherent set of services of good quality care throughout one's lifespan. At a minimum, each person should have ready access to basic health care services that include preventive, acute and chronic physical and mental health care at an affordable cost.
The United States does not currently have a healthcare system that is capable of care for all people.” And then it goes on, there's lots of different advocacy kind of stuff. So even though I have good health insurance, my copays and deductibles are a lot. I worry that some people have a tough decision when it comes to the cost of medications and the ease with which we can buy cheap food, which you referenced earlier that might be less healthy for us, whose voice is missing from this conversation?
Ollie: I think it's the voice of the poor, and it's the voice of people have to make a decision- Are we going to eat tonight or are we going to pay this medical bill? And the thing that I think of is that's also my wife and I, we have good jobs, we were educated and that I think means that we're poor, because we have bills that are, that are crazier than we can ever believe.
And so like, when I hear that, when I think about how are we going to afford this cost? I think about those that can't even afford the deductible.
Barbara: I just want to have a call to justice along with this conversation about how do we eat less gluten or less sugar or something like that, that people who might not have any health problems or even if you do, I'm willing to pay more taxes so that more people can have healthcare coverage and that someone isn't saying, well, if I buy my insulin because it's not free then I probably can't pay my rent, especially with people getting laid off during the COVID-19 pandemic . So just to raise that awareness.
Ollie: that's why I really liked this passage in Corinthians is, people are like, I don't want to pay more taxes. You know, the government's already taken more money from me than they should. Yeah, that's true. And they're not using our money, right. You know, they're spending it all on the military and which is important and hard when funds are not being used well, and yet, as Paul says, is my not paying taxes is going to cause another to stumble?
So if what I can do is pay more taxes and that might help my neighbor, that's good. That's part of me giving up my rights as Jesus gave up his rights for us.
Barbara: And another thing that comes from my social work background, but it's also in the ELCA social statement is about people's right to make their own decisions about their own bodies. And on page 22, it says “the dominant principle in healthcare ethics is the right of individuals to be freely self-determining with regard to their own bodies and medical treatment decisions.
This principle rightly protects against unjustifiable medical and familial paternalism. This church supports an individual's freedom to make healthcare decisions, according to her or his own conscience and moral discernment.” And that goes back to what we were talking yeah. Before about judging each other in all different directions.
So if someone is gonna say, you know what, I'm not going to follow this doctor's advice or whatever that they have the right to do that too, even though we don't want them to.
Ollie: That's where loving each other gets really hard. Cause when we love somebody, we weirdly want to control them. People are always free to change. And so our love has to always be sort of rooted in that. And so when, when someone makes a stupid decision, the question is, do we love people because of who they are or because they agree with us?
Barbara: That's a great question. Another biblical concept that's not addressed in these passages is healing. And I'm wondering if you could talk for a minute around your thoughts of, some people are healed and some people aren't healed and it's not a judgment either.
That's not how I see it, that if I'm good enough, God will heal me. Or if I pray hard enough, God will heal me. God answers prayers. And in different ways, for everyone. So when you talked in your blog post, you're living God's calling of how you were made with or without diabetes.
Ollie: in the old Testament, there's a lot of our heavenly reward is long life. You know, if we're righteous, we get a longer life. If we aren't righteous, we get a short one, but really, the thing about life is that life is grace to be born is an act of God's grace.
Likewise dying is an act of grace. And when God calls us to die, we have to be ready that to trust and to have that faith, that this is what's best for me. I love monks. Protestantism is an experiment in trying to make the whole world a monastery.
How's that? Marriage is a call to permanently be with somebody as best as you can. Yes, these things are gonna break down, so that's why divorce has to be okay. And we have to have grace for divorced people, but the idea being that here with this person, I'm going to discern God's word for me.
I'm going to discern how to love my neighbor. I'm going to discern how to pray in this way with this person, these people. The monastery is a place of always discerning how to love your neighbor and how to do it in a certain way. And as Protestants we’re saying, that idea is our whole lives.
I just saw a video of a monk talking, and he's blind. He says with such confidence, I know that it was for my betterment for the good of me that God made me blind. And I think that God made me diabetic because it's good for me. You know, this is the best for me. I don't know why. I don't know why people get cancer. And it might not be liberating for someone to say, this is for my betterment that God gave me this. But my conviction is that God is working something good in this moment of crap.
And that's a perspective I can only come to because of the freedom God gives me. And I gotta be cautious in preaching.
Barbara: somebody is going to be mad probably no matter what we say, and you're not talking to make people happy. We are talking about our sincere beliefs and trying to be as gentle as possible. But every once in a while, a prophetic voice, that's not necessarily kind and gentle is okay to maybe just, not all day every day.
Ollie: And there are people that are good at that. They are all day everyday a prophet of the Lord, and I more power to them. I can't even hang out on Twitter long enough without wanting to shrink up and die, you know?
Barbara: So we're not saying you have this horrible situation because God hates you, you or God wants to punish you, or you did something bad to deserve it or anything like that. There's a mystery to some extent, and we know that there's sin in the world also. And so if you're drinking water that's not potable and your body is suffering because somebody else polluted the water, that's sin.
And we'll keep praying on this. But right now, we have what we have, and we're prayerfully working through to understand it as best we can and then to deal with it as best as we can. And I do have an interesting definition for your thoughts on page 33.
It says “the total wellbeing of persons is the integration of each person's spiritual. Psychological and physical dimensions, the harmonious interrelationship of environmental, nutritional, social, cultural, and other aspects of life.”
Ollie: It sounds spot on in Zen Buddhism. They often talk about no dualism, non-dualism, and that's really hard, especially for Western minds. Because we think of ourselves as minds, bodies, spirits, and we keep them completely, they're separate things. This is not true. And that's a very dualistic way to think of it. Okay. The word for soul in Hebrew nefesh roughly translates to your throat- often you hear this lift up your soul really.
It's like just stand up straight. That's one way you can think of it, because our souls or minds or bodies, that's all interconnected that you can't get rid of one without getting rid of the other if your soul is hurt, obviously your mind is going to be hurt. We can't divorce our minds from our bodies, our souls,
Barbara: and yet, how good are we at avoiding that or eating our misery, for example, or just completely trying to ignore it. And then it explodes someday.
Ollie: I eat my misery because somehow my heart hurts. So I'm going to eat a cheeseburger with my mouth.
Barbara: How's that make sense? Not at all, but most of us do it, maybe not cheeseburger, but whatever your self-medication of choices.
Ollie: Yeah, exactly.
Barbara: we've tried to pack a whole lot into this conversation, starting with a really powerful Bible passage, diabetes, gluten, dairy, God healthcare, and the works.
Ollie: Jesus's life is at work in, you. Your life is at work in Jesus. And that probably makes your mind blow up, but it's kind of a summary of everything we've talked about in.
Barbara: And some people might not think that that's true in their lives. So I always want to give a shout out to someone who might, they've been rejected by a human being affiliated with a faith based organization who may have said that they are speaking for God and that you and I have a very broad sense of welcome.
Of people and not rejecting people. It's not my place to judge you. Now, if you asked me for advice, I might have some advice for you, whether it's right or wrong, but we're not in the business of kicking people out of church. And I know that hasn't happened to everybody, but just in terms of that's really revolutionary what you said
Ollie: Your black life lives in Jesus. Your trans life lives in Jesus. Your disabled life quite literally lives in Jesus's body, more than maybe any other ism I can think of right now. All our lives are at work in Jesus and his life is working in ours.
Barbara: Thank you so much. This has been excellent.
Ollie: thank you for having me and God bless your work here.
Resources
1 Corinthians 8:8-9, 11-13
Ollie’s blog
Ollie is learning about care for health on behalf of others!