Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Marianne Gould, and our topic is church during pandemic. I met Marianne at Wartburg theological seminary, where we are both students. She's been Lutheran most of her life, although Marianne has also served as an organist and or choir director at Methodist and Presbyterian churches over the years. After 27 years of service in public education, teaching in band, elementary music and choir, she retired in 2005. Maryanne's husband likes to say that she flunked out of retirement since she now has a part-time job as director of music ministry at Peace Lutheran Church in New Braunfels, Texas, as well as being a seminary student in order to become a deacon in the Evangelical Lutheran church of America with specialization in worship and music. Marianne has lived in Texas nearly all her life and currently lives in central Texas, halfway between San Antonio and Austin. Now that she has had both of her vaccines, Marianne is hopeful that she can spoil her grandkids in person. Welcome, Marianne. How are things in Texas for you these days?
Marianne: today is bright, sunny and warm, not too hot, not too cold. Just goldilocks bear time.
Barbara: Nice. So today's Bible verse is from Psalm 95. I'm going to read just the first verse from the new revised standard version. And we've been in Psalms for a little bit now, and it's just before the middle of your Bible. So just a little to the left of center.
“Oh, come let us sing to the Lord. Let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.”
This verse has been set to music many ways in several different Lutheran denominations, including the LCMS, the ELCA, and I believe also in at least one Episcopal setting. Thanks for selecting this first for us today. Marianne, what are some of the many different ways you have seen and heard people make a joyful noise to God?
Marianne: During COVID times there's been a lot more expressions because we've been forced into it. One of the things that I particularly like about this verse is that it says joyful noise- it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be able to carry a tune or that you have to sing beautifully like a bird, but to lift your voice in praise to God is just the utmost joy that I can imagine in worship- to give praise to God for everything that God has given us and all the ways that we can praise him.
And one of the groups that I lead at Peace Lutheran Church is called jubilant praise. And it's not about us being wonderful, great musicians, or being able to go out on the road on tour anytime. But it is about us when we sing God's praises on a Sunday morning or whatever time that we sing that we joyfully sing together and give praise to God in these COVID times. Singing has turned out to be one of those things that is not safe for us. And so that was extremely hard for me to take as a person, plus, as a person who leads worship in songs,
And fortunately for a while, we were able to continue in small groups with masks and we could still lead worship with a very minimal number of people in the sanctuary, and we did live streaming services. So that was one way that we continue to be able to sing. The biggest challenge for me in this COVID times is the ever changing landscape, if you will, about what the local politicians or the CDC says this group said, or that group said we continually had to make changes on the fly almost on a weekly basis.
Barbara: Exactly. And I won't deny it. The grief, frankly, that many people felt at not being able to come together inside the doors of our familiar churches, but there are still ways of making a joyful noise.
But what I am pretty sure I heard you say is that God is not calling people to take voice lessons. I mean, unless you want to, if that brings you joy and you have that accessible to you somehow, of course, by all means, go ahead. But that God hears our joyful praise even if we didn't take voice lessons or we're not professional opera singers.
Marianne: So true, Barbara- it doesn't make any difference whether you carry a tune or not. If you have a smile on your face and a joy in your heart that you're willing to share with all of those in worship with you, then that's what's really important. And I did mourn quite a lot the last Sunday, I remember that we were able to sing in person. I knew it was the last Sunday because the week coming up, I knew that parameters had changed and that we would not be allowed to sing in person anymore. And I left the sanctuary in tears that day.
As soon as the last time was over. I had to leave because I didn't want everybody to see me doing ugly cry thing. But it is all about the joy. It was a struggle to find a new way to worship and to praise God.
Barbara: Yes. And I do think also that it's fair to say we have different gifts and we do still practice. But that's not judging. That's not us saying you have to earn your way to salvation by being a good musician, but that we practice so that our joyful noise to the Lord can be put together a little bit. And if there's a rest that we're resting at the same time, or if there's harmony. I don't mean to just say sing whatever you want and who cares, what it sounds like, although in the shower.
Marianne: you're absolutely right. I know God understands that some of the days that you were not making as preparedness and some of the others. We knew that because we didn't do as well as what we would have liked to have done, but I know that God received that.
And the people listening in the congregation were blessed by hearing God's witness the proclamation of the gospel in songs, so that made it worthwhile.
Barbara: And I also believe that God hears different cultural praises. In a unique way. When I was in Texas, actually on a school course, I had the opportunity to participate in a funeral for an individual. And the family had brought in a mariachi band and I found out that that's actually customary and not unusual. I had never seen it before. But the other students, and I actually really enjoyed that.
And we could tell that band was singing about, I understood just a few words, kind of here and there, but about memories and about sadness and about joy. And I thought I would really like to have a mariachi band play at my funeral, but my question for you is about different cultural sort of understandings.
Do you have any observations about people's idea of what joyful sounds like that might be different from how another culture or people think about as celebratory music?
Marianne: one of the things that I appreciate most about Lutheran book of worship, and also the new hymnal supplement that's come out all creation sayings is if there's any inclusion of so many songs from various cultures yes, we all in different cultures celebrate and lament in different ways, but they all hold a richness that connects us to God through different channels in different ways and different words, but it's all in God.
And so I think that by Our singing and praising God in other languages, the best that we can, that we're actually showing our love of God for all people and not just for this group or for that group. And I love listening to mariachi music in worship. You know, w there's a setting seven that's all in Spanish.
And so my group a couple of times a year would sing that setting. And we brought in a mariachi group that I gave them all the music and we just had a fantastic celebration. Yeah.
Barbara: And even the flute music that you recorded it for us when the podcast first started. And it's often at the beginning of a podcast episode. The way we were brought up introduces into our minds a certain way of music or tones of music. And we might think certain music is kind of sad and maybe somebody else doesn't think it's sad at all, So that's why I brought that up on it to say, thank you to you for that. And to honor that there's no one right way, at least that I'm thinking of, maybe other people think there's one right way,
Marianne: That's one of the kind of nice, wonderful things about music is it, there is no one right way. For instance, in the native American music, because their history in this particular country has had so much mournfulness in it with the colonialism, that many of their songs are very lament filled, but they also include their songs of joy. Or who had hunts and the good harvest. So it's not strictly that, but sometimes the experiences of a particular culture bring a certain richness and lament or joy into their surroundings because of their culture and through their music. And so that is a way that they can express in music and words, things that they maybe couldn't express as well in a speaking manner.
Barbara: Exactly. And we also have had to make some unexpected adjustments. You and I saw each other 13 months ago, last February, and we had no idea how drastically things would change. How has your church adjusted worship services, especially music in the light the last year?
Marianne: we were very fortunate as a church that we were already doing the live stream worship. And so we had some experience with that, but some of the churches in our neighborhood did not. And so we shared with them and until they were able to see how things work and got equipment of their own and started out on their own. Unfortunately during the really cold spell a couple of weeks ago, our church was damaged. With the cold weather, our fire suppression system froze up and burst the little nozzles on the end of it and dumped a half inch of water all over our entire building.
And so now we are the ones that are going to their church, even though we certainly didn't ask them, but they're allowing us to do live streaming worship services with their congregation. And so it's been a very interesting time to not only be shut out from music, but also to be shut out from the building.
And we do still have a parking lot worship out front, and have an FM system worked out. And we've done three recording services for our Lenten services this year and for Christmas Eve and Easter as well. But we're just having to adjust and all of us are learning the technical side of worship that we never thought we'd have to learn.
And it’s frankly not even a course that they teach in seminary. So everybody's like the first year out preacher, trying to decide, how do we make this transition into the digital space for worship?
Barbara: Exactly. And people might not think a half an inch of water is that big of a deal. Cause when it's in a puddle or in a bathtub, it doesn't seem like a lot, but when it's covering your carpeting or your hymnals…
Marianne: we do not have pews. We've had chairs, so that has been wonderful. And our piano and organ were far enough away from the sprinklers that they were not damaged. Many blessings have come from this- everyone has been very nice. For our Easter services and our prerecorded, a neighboring Presbyterian church is letting us use their sanctuary and their piano and their rehearsal space for our rehearsals and the taping since we don't have ours available. So the ecumenical Christian community steps up and it's just been such a wonderful time to receive blessings. And we're very grateful for all of those people that are showing God's love in their gifts, giving us space to worship.
Barbara: Yes. And even more so, this is an example of the church isn't only the physical space because a lot of people said, well, the church is closed, but maybe the physical building had to close for safety reasons for a period of months. But the church isn't just the building. And even now, if people are looking on their screen, they're going to say, Hey, that's not even my church, but thank you for the generosity of a neighboring church. And we get familiar and we get really comfortable and it might look different, but we're still praising God.
Marianne: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's been one of the blessings of COVID in our flood in the church is the fact that church has had to reinvigorate itself to reform itself. And to question. What are we doing? And is it really praising God? Or is it just routine? Because we did it this way for years and years and years. And so I'm so excited about the many ways that church has evolved into being real disciples of Jesus and following Jesus’ way, instead of just doing things like my mother and grandmother and great-grandmother did.
Barbara: I enjoy talking about positive developments, but I also really want to honor that for some people, even you and I have been grieving during this process. And I'm wondering was the ministry team creative in any way to help people with that process of grief? Most places don't address it, but I just was curious to help people in the faith community mourn the sorrow amidst some of the hopeful blessings?
Marianne: Absolutely. We've had several healing services. We've had different venues online where we could go and just have an open conversation. I keep in touch with the group that are singers and instrumentalists weekly. And the first part of every session we talk about what's going in your life, what are you struggling with this week? What are your joys this week? And then we rehearse some new songs. So be ready whenever we do get to be together and sing together again.
Barbara: That's a really neat way of honoring the need. I love to watch worship services online. I don't have any problem with it, but part of most people's experience is just a little bit of social time. It's often called coffee hour, but it doesn't have to be called coffee hour. A lot of faith communities have made meals together or special events, and that hasn't been able to happen, either. So it sounds like even just intentional time to be social for a few minutes or networking or whatever you want to call it.
Marianne: yes. This year we're doing a Seder meal and inviting people in and talking about the meal itself and not only say the prayers with us, but to learn about the different parts of the Seder meal and to go into breakout groups and talk about how they think that is a positive or how they see that in the role of Jesus in his sacrament. And so I think it'll be a really neat way for us to connect and stay connected in a meal situation during Holy week.
Barbara: Oh, that sounds really terrific. And I also want to honor that I suspect in some ways it feels like a whole lot more work. Even if people aren't necessarily going into the church office. I mean, it was never a 40 hour week anyway, from nine to five, sitting behind a desk. But I know from our colleagues and just from friends, especially the learning curve. I don't know if it's sort of settled into a routine, but I just want to say, thank you to the whole team that I know that there's a lot of work involved with this addiction communication, because maybe some folks have more access.
Now I can be in 10 different church services all around the world in one day, if I want to be. But some people put together bulletins or really comprehensive electronic presentations, not everybody does that. And then also trying to reach out to people who don't have a lot of online connectivity either who might feel isolated.
Marianne: That's so true. That's one of the things that we have tried to be very intentional about is making sure that people in our congregation who are not connected by digital means to be able to touch base with them by phone or by stopping in their front yard and talking from afar or ways that we can keep in touch with them and make sure that they know that their congregation is still thinking about them and praying for them.
Barbara: Have there been any moments of laughter despite all of these stressful things that we're going through with your church team?
Marianne: We occasionally do have fun and laugh and it feels really good. One staff meeting, we were all sitting around on our zoom platform. And we started making our faces using the filters and putting on ears and noses, and it was near Christmas. And so we'd put on our Christmas hats or reindeer horns or whatever.
And then we took a picture of that and showed it on our Facebook page or the church got a big tickle out of it. And everybody got a big laugh. So it was worth every bit.
Barbara: Very nice. Are there any innovations that you might keep that were new from this time that we didn't have a choice about, but that might be a choice in the future?
Marianne: One of the things that has worked out really well, we have a deacon in our church that is in faith formation. And one of the things that he instigated is what we call grace place on Saturday mornings for children, young adults, and he has his office set up like a movie studio and they sing songs and they tell Bible stories and they talk. And the really nice thing about it is the kids can be in their home.
So you don't have to bother mom and dad to take them someplace to have youth group , they can be in their home where they're under the eye of mom and dad, but they're still learning about God and it's just worked out really well. Bishop Sue Briner from our district has come in and she's been our guest one time.
And then occasionally, we have a guest guitar player or someone that comes in and talks about grief with kids and ways you can deal with grief. And a couple of weeks ago, I got to be the guest. And so I was talking about during the really cold weather, what was happening in their homes and how they adjusted and took care of schoolwork or took care of the snow or making sure that they were being good stewards of God's creation and everything. And I hope that that stays around. We've also been able to do a Bible study with people that maybe wouldn't get out late at night because it's already dark and they don't want to drive, and now they're in their homes on their computer, we can discuss the Bible verses or the Bible books and different concepts and not have to worry about driving late at night. So that's been a very much of a plus.
Barbara: Lovely. Thank you for those examples. I do feel like despite the stress and sorrow of this disruption in our expectations, for many people, it's comforting experience of worship. Like you said, it's always been this way and now we're doing things in a new way because we have to. But what if there's something that we can keep, and I agree with you, lots of parents are driving their kids all over the place or have been in the past morning, noon and night for different activities.
So I bet a lot of kids will be really happy to get together again. But what if there is a way to keep people more connected? And my Bible studies all went online too, and it's just not the same as sitting around a table, but I'd rather have an online Bible study than no Bible study at all.
Marianne: That's for sure.
Barbara: I am wondering Marianne, if you received any advice around how to handle the stress and forced creativity that you and your team have really been juggling, all these new ways of doing things. Did anybody share wisdom with you or the team about taking care of your own physical and emotional needs?
Marianne: Oh, absolutely. I feel very fortunate because I have a spiritual director who is very much aware of listening for clues that I gave her when we're in discussion. And I also have a very good deacon mentor who is also helping me say, how much time are you giving for yourself?
I also have an extremely good lay internship committee. Cause I'm on internship this semester. And they are always asking me, what are you doing for yourself? How is your balance in your life? And that is always been really helpful because as someone who wants to serve, I all too often will serve rather than take care of self.
Barbara: My experience has been that it's all in my head. I understand it conceptually. And then sometimes making it happen is a different story. And that's sort of my impression from so many people who just like you said, want to serve.
So then making it happen might be different from understanding that it needs to happen. And even the concept of Sabbath , do you have any specific examples?
Marianne: One of the things that my spiritual director has requested that I do is start my day, since music is such a big part of my life, I am to listen to a piece of music that brings me joy and it can have nothing to do with church music or school music.
But it's helped focus me on that, believe it or not. One of the other things that I have been able to use to get ideas and to get my creative juices going, is Facebook unbelievably enough, but there are so many groups out there of Lutheran church musicians and association of Lutheran church musicians and Episcopal musicians.
And Presbyterian musicians and Methodists, and we all just chat- what I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think, I'm having trouble with this? Can I find a piece in this key, it looks like, and everybody is so helpful and it has really been a blessing. Who just thought that on Facebook, but to find different people that also share your passion for music and worship and also for the creative spirit and wonderful ways to meet and greet and share God.
Barbara: So optional homework assignment, and I suppose it doesn't have to be music, but I think music connects with a lot of people, even if you're not a church musician or to either start your day off, listening to a piece of music that seems to be positive in nature. Joyful is the word that you used, and peer support also. And then to know that it's okay to take Sabbath, that that's part of our faith routine as well. And service is important, but Jesus had Sabbath also.
Marianne: Indeed. And we kind of forget that, but Jesus did take breaks and he did go off and pray by himself. And one of the things that I do for me is contemplative prayer. I have two different groups that I belong to faithfully and then Wartburg has started one this semester. So now I have three- one of them is a group of ladies that I have prayed with, for over 10 years, which is just wonderful. And we started a group of ecumenical contemplative prayer that we meet once a month with people from all different faiths and from all different States.
And now with zoom, we meet once a month and you have some thought to God in their lives and being quiet, listening for what God has in mind for us, without us telling God what we'd like to do.
Barbara: Very nice. Thank you so much. And one question that I like to ask as we're talking about accessibility and connectivity is whose voice is missing from this conversation about pandemic disrupted worship and music? And how can we reach out to listen and to invite and encourage people who might be feeling left out?
Marianne: One of the things that I have thought about that Is the people on the margins, they may be margins due to their ethnicity. They may be margins because of their job. I think about the people in hospitals that work with doctors and nurses, and COVID patients, who empty the trash and sweep the floors and mop the floors and all those things that get pushed back to the edges of life, and the people in the grocery stores, who stock the shelves and unload the trucks and carry your groceries out to the car. And we have a tendency to just pull our blinders over and hardly even speak to him and say, thank you.
So I've really tried to not only lift those up, but to speak to people when I come in contact with them and say, thank you for what you're doing. And I know they don't often get very much thank you. But even the teachers that stand in front of those kids on a day-to-day basis, learning brand new things in order to try to keep parents still working and children still engaged in their studies.
Gosh, what a job they have to do. I mean, I don't know these days and times, so there's so many people that are really helpers that are in the margins. And my challenge to anybody would be to find at least two or three people every day when you leave your house, supplying those people that are on the margins and tell them, thank you for what you do.
Barbara: There's an optional homework assignment. That's highly recommended. And at first, when you were talking, I was thinking there's so many people who have to work on Sunday mornings. Even my husband is a reservist and sometimes when church services are in-person only, they're often traditionally held on Sunday mornings.
And some people just have to work. It's not an option for them, from medical or cleaning or stores. I mean, you could say I'm not going to work on Sunday mornings, but you can't say that when you're in the military, in the reserves and other people would be putting their jobs at risk.
And then you broaden the circle, even not just to people who are working Sunday mornings, if you worked overnight, you need to sleep. Or if you're just exhausted from everything that's going on. Hopefully these online services or Bible studies, allow people to watch the recording later at their own convenience, even though it's not the same thing as being in person, but how are we showing love to our neighbors in many different ways, even by thanking them.
Marianne: That is so true. I think that the churches who can manage something besides the Sunday morning, everybody does it at nine or 10 or 10 30 in the morning. The more we can accommodate people for the job they're doing these days, the more true you're being to Christ's message that you meet them where they are. And if they're not able to be there with you, then you go to them.
Barbara: Is there any kind of elephant in the room, Marianne, as we're talking about church and pandemic and music and worship and making adjustments during this time of disruption?
Marianne: One thing that I'm a little fearful of is that when we are allowed to go back to in-person and worship as we used to, I'm afraid that it may be easier to be the status quo without really investigating what things did we do during the pandemic that we're feeding the people in our congregation, what they needed and and do the ministry that we're called to do.
And so I'm hopeful that when we come back together it will be very intentional about offering Jesus and in ways that will be engaging with the public and all of our people, not just some of our people in our congregation.
Barbara: That's right. So having ways to reach as many people as possible in different ways. And I suspect that innovation has often been a point of contention in some places, although it seems to me like other places are just all about innovation and that's appealing for some and maybe less appealing for others, but how do we balance new things for people in different ways and then discerning what to keep?
Marianne: exactly. That balance is a little hard sometimes. Oftentimes Lutherans say, well, if we didn't do it like that for the last five years, we're not doing it like that now. Be flexible, I think is one thing, and adaptable. If you're not gonna be flexible and adapt, then you're going to get left behind. That's just all there is to it.
The world has moved into a new age of digital worship and digital engagement with each other. There's some negative aspects to that, but we have to move with the culture. And I want the church to be up on the front lines, leading the charge.
Barbara: And we've talked about accessibility for some folks who may not have as much connectivity for online and digital activities. But I really believe in my heart that there also are accessibility issues when there are only in-person services. And we talked a little bit about work schedules, but even people feeling welcome.
I know that people have been curious about these different types of online churchy kinds of things, and have checked things out that they might not want to walk through the door because in all honesty is everyone really welcome everywhere? And I want the answer to be yes, with every fiber of my being, but I don't think that the answer is yes.
I don't think that everyone is welcome everywhere, even if we want them to be welcomed, because we're sinful humans. And sometimes our behavior isn't as welcoming as it could be. Or maybe people just kind of have the impression, Oh, these kinds of people go into this building. And I'm not one of those kinds of people.
And is it going to be more work maybe for the team? So if you have all these in-person services and then you also do a digital service, there might be people who don't want recording devices in the sanctuary during an in-person service.
Marianne: Yeah.
Barbara: It could go in any direction or then do you do a whole separate recording session just for the online stuff? I don't mean to keep raising up questions that we don't have the answers for, but just to point out , emotional accessibility is one thing, even physical accessibility you had mentioned sometimes evenings driving at night. That zoom has worked out really well for some people, and I know that most churches have spent a great deal of money to make the facilities accessible in terms of ramps and stairs. But we've certainly been doing plan B for long enough now. We can see that it is effective in some cases.
Did you have any new musicians since last March? I didn't mean for this to be the anniversary recording, but I'm pretty sure I've talked about the pandemic during every single recording, but I haven't done a recording sort of about it until now, just by coincidence. Is there anyone who's gotten involved who might not have been involved before?
Marianne: There absolutely is- when I taught my sacred drumming class. I had four people join the class because they said I may not be able to sing, but I can make a joyful noise. They brought their drums and we dove in together and learned rhythms together.
During Christmas Eve, trying to plan a vocal service behind masks, where we could sing three songs. I just put a blanket statement out there- if you'd like to sing for this service come and we're going to have rehearsal Wednesday night and Saturday, so that there were two times if they couldn't make one rehearsal, they could make another one. And it came off. We had about four different new people that had not sung with our group before. It was wonderful to see new life coming, and one person even walked in off our parking lot worship and said, I've played with the United States Marine band. Do you have a place where I can play? Have I got a place for you? That's great. Being able to use it. It's a challenge and is gifts in worship. We used them at Christmas or we're going to use them again at Easter.
Barbara: glad you did those parking lot services. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Marianne. I appreciate all of the dedication of you and your team during these times. And thank you for the flute music that we've been listening to all these months, too.
Marianne: I enjoyed it very much.
Resources:
Psalm 95:1
