Barbara: Today's topic is pop culture and faith - our guest is John Evans. I met John at Wartburg Theological Seminary in Dubuque, Iowa, where he's pursuing a Master's of Divinity to become a pastor. John is originally from Louisiana considers Atlanta to be his hometown and Northern New Mexico his spiritual home. John was raised in the Southern Baptist church but left at a young age.
He had a long journey in returning to the faith beginning in college, which included a reconciliation of his Jewish ancestry and some experiences he faced growing up in the deep South, this journey would lead to his discovery of Lutheran theology. John holds a bachelor's degree in political science with a minor in religion.
He has worked as a wilderness ranger for the United States forest service and as a leader in outdoor ministry and retreat centers, such as Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, Luther Ridge in North Carolina and Luther Ranch in Georgia. John is deeply passionate about the radical revolutionary gospel of Jesus Christ, which welcomes and cherishes the dignity of all people.
He's also passionate about the intersection between faith and popular culture, which he believes is key to communicating the reality of the gospel today. John, we're going to talk about pop culture today, but I would really like to hear about the outdoor ministry and retreat centers where you've worked.
Why would you encourage people to spend some time at one of these places or a similar place? Is there such a thing as summer camp for grownups?
John: Absolutely - you are never too old for the summer camp experience and it is a powerful way to re-center yourself. And ghost ranch in particular has a special place in my heart because it is most famous for being where Georgia O'Keeffe lived and worked and did her famous desert landscape paintings.
it was incredible. And, it's truly God's country. it's a thin place, a place where the divide between heaven and earth kind of ceases to be. Luther Ridge is also incredible. It's right down the road from, the blue Ridge Parkway.
Barbara: we'll put all those resources in the transcript of the podcast, which is going to be at www.fortyminutesoffaith.com . So you're invited to check those places out. And I know there's a bunch of others in different States.
Today's Bible passage is from the book of Colossians, which is in the new Testament towards the end of your Bible. It's after the gospels, along with many other relatively shorter books that are letters to communities around the Mediterranean I'll read Colossians chapter one verses 15 to 20 from the new revised standard version.This passage has a lot of HE'S and him's, which refer to Jesus.
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.”
John, one of the aspects that makes this podcast not just another Bible study is that we are going to reference this passage as it relates to pop culture, but we're not going to break it down verse by verse for meaning and historical context. I know you're going to explain how these verses relate to some books and movies that are a small slice of pop culture.
Why are some movies and books considered controversial among Christians today?
John: over the years, with the emergence of fiction in the popular culture, there's always been, especially with the success stories or the kind of. Cult followings that merge. there is a tendency, unfortunately, particularly in the segment of Christianity.
I grew up to have this negative backlash as if this is like taking people away from the truth of the gospel. And unfortunately, one of the tenets of fundamentalism, be it in Christianity or any other religion or ideology is that there always has to be this kind of boogie monster, right? This idea of there always has to be an enemy- most infamously was the response to the Harry Potter series when it first emerged. and I was caught right in the middle of that. I was a young person at that time. I was in. second or third grade when I first got my hands on more of the books and I got into huge trouble.
But the interesting thing is that after I encouraged my parents to read the books that had come out to that point, they both sat down and said, we see so much of the gospel in this. And I'm like, yeah, Yeah, exactly. And, it's, it's interesting how that response was so vitriolic to that series in particular, but over time, as people studied it, they saw that JK Rowlings’ faith was present, particularly in the notions of love and sacrifice and the willingness to undergo death so that other people may live in freedom.
Barbara: it's like there's a pie and the whole pie has to be about God. And if there's anything that's not God it's like taking away from the God pie, but that's not usually how I would see things.
And I want to be respectful and talk about these different opinions and of course I have my own opinions and we're going to kind of dig into some of the details together, but also who am I to say? This is the only way I can say what I believe, where you can say, Hey, this is how I see it.
And then we'll see where it goes from there. So how does our passage from Colassians connect with Harry Potter?
John: Well, I would say that it connects with Harry Potter. I would say most profoundly connects with Lord of the rings and the life and work of JRR Tolkien and also star Wars to a large extent.
The verse in particular, in Christ all things are created. That very much ties to this notion that J. R. R. Tolkien spoke of the idea of what he called the one true myth. In fact, this idea was what his friendship with C. S. Lewis allowed Lewis to actually become a Christian. A lot of people don't know that if it wasn't for J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis would have not become a Christian.
What Tolkien talked about with this idea of the one true myth is that because God is the ultimate creator, God is the ultimate storyteller. And God has been continuously revealing God's self through all kinds of means and all kinds of ways to manifest truth. God is the ultimate storyteller, right? And in Christ you have the greatest story ever told, a story of God coming to earth, not as a powerful über-mensch style figure, but as this refugee, this revolutionary who was hauled up on a cross for daring to say that empires will one day crumble into dust, but God will remain overall.
Barbara: you had alluded to a couple of the topics that we said, Hey, let's cover these because pop culture is massive. We selected a few and I did a little bit of research so I could have a better understanding of the opposing questions, because I read the Narnia books when I was a kid, the Hobbit, Star Wars, and I didn't see any nefarious, I didn't have any inkling of that stuff as a kid. So why do people object to them? So there was some talk about, is there racism or Eurocentric bias in some of the Tolkien books?
And I want to be sensitive that it's not enough to just say I'm not racist that to actively promote anti-racism. And the author said, yeah, there could be some of that read into it, even if it wasn't meant that way or could be interpreted in a different way nowadays.
John: that's an interesting point, in regards to antisemitism to me as a person of Jewish extraction. When Tolkien’s the Hobbit published in England in 1937, but it began to be published internationally around the world the next year, 1938. And of course, in Germany at the time that was. Where the Nazi party had really started to come to power.
And Joseph Goebbels, who was one of Hitler's skulking henchmen, had a very tight grip on publishing and, knowledge getting out through books. And there is an account of token getting a letter from the Nazi proper office, basically asking, him, if he had any Jewish ancestry. And Tolkien was infuriated by this because he had Jewish friends and he wrote back and said, unfortunately, I do not have any of the blood of that noble race in my veins.
And as for the Eurocentric elements, it's hard to ignore that. Tolkien was creating a mythology that was very much rooted in European traditions. But what's interesting about that is that even in this white space, there is diversity of race. You have human beings, you have hobbits, you have elves, you have dwarves. And what is interesting is it's about all these people coming together and realizing that there is a force of evil. And so much of the Lord of the Rings is about these disparate groups of people realizing that there is a common good that they must fight for, a really beautiful example of that.
Tolkien believed not at all in any racist ideology, he was adamantly opposed to Adolf Hitler. And on top of that, he was a profound environmentalist. He said that the most evil invention ever pushed upon human condition is the modern internal combustion engine.
So there's definitely a whiteness there, but the message there is very clear that all humankind must work together.
Barbara: And there's an illustration of sort of interracial friendship, if you will. And I remember the themes of nature even to this day.
And so knowing a little bit about the author's background or the author's situation could frame sort of some of those, and I'm not arguing, you know, with, if people say, yeah, there, there could be an interpretation of race in the books.
I'm not gonna just deny it and try to paint over it. But absolutely perhaps the context. And then there were some quotes that I also read from him where he had intended to create divisiveness, which is exactly what you just said. And some of the themes that you mentioned actually sounded familiar to me as we also have a few other books and movies to take a look at in terms of fighting off.
Well, really pretty much all of them that maybe that's a universal theme in a lot of books and movies. How about C S Lewis has children? Why do some people object to especially Narnia?
John: You know, that's an interesting one because, the environment that I grew up in C S Lewis was worshipped, and, and as an adult, as I began to study theology, I began to say, you know, if some of the people I grew up with really read CS Lewis, they would not be a fan of him.
He was very much a believer that God does not like set apart a certain people as like the ins and the outs. He talked about this idea that God speaks to people in the language that is best suited for them. I think that the main thing was Narnia. There is both a religious objection to it and a secular objection, too. There has been controversy in public schools with the Narnia books, because there are such strong Christian themes in there and the Christian complaint that I have heard is, and I think you brought this up when we first began to talk about it is this depiction of Jesus as Aslan. So as Aslan is depicted as this lion. So it's kind of that, victorious, just not Christ as the lamb, the same lamb that John, the Baptist pointed to. And yet the interesting thing is that the symbol of Judah, which was the area of Palestine that Jesus is from, and that was his ancestry is a lion.
And Lewis was drawing upon that. I think in going into the other controversy with Narnia is how dark they are for children's books. Cause they don't shy away from addressing real things like genocide, for example, or murder or, tyranny. I think it's detrimental to not expose children to darker realities of life because stories in particular, I think for kids are a way to confront reality that is very present. Look within themselves and say, if these characters can face the evil that's in their world, I can grow up and do the same thing. They have to be able to face evil in this world.
Barbara: on the one hand, we want to protect children and maybe preserve their childhood for as long as possible. But on the other hand, I'm wondering about just what kids are seeing on TV. I would rather have kids reading Narnia than watching the news these days.
I honor keeping kids young and safe and not aware of any of this stuff, but is that even possible? So then if you keep your kids in a bubble, then when do they ever get out of the bubble? Or is this just a fantasy bubble that the real world has taken care of?
John: we live in an age and time where information is just flying all over the place faster than it ever has. And people have more access to it. And subsequently there's this constant battle for truth in this postmodern age where, to quote, Pontius Pilot, what is truth, which is aligned that we have heard quite recently, certainly from some of our politicians and this country.
And you have to recognize for each child is individually what their gifts are, what their fears are, what their interests are, but you don't shy away from things because the more you shy away from things, the more they're going to find it out on their own.
And they're going to be even more confused, you know?
Barbara: And I also have an overarching question for the whole conversation is God being glorified. And so you and I experienced Narnia as God being glorified because I grew up going to church every week, too, even as a little kid. So I don't remember when I became aware of the symbolism. I can't remember how old I was when I read them for the first time. So did I understand the sacrifices Aslan, symbolizing Jesus? Yes. I honestly don't know, but it felt comforting to me in some way, the theme of redemption. So I can see Christian themes clearly. Now as an adult I’m wondering for the sake of conversation, this battle of good and evil and, and Christian themes. So then is it kind of worth it? And I feel like we're saying yes, but then, and I also have a sense of fear. From kind of other sources, there's so much evil or Jesus is portrayed as a lion and not a lamb because the symbolism in the Bible was that he was a lamb, but you pointed out something else also.
So I just feel like we're kind of grappling with we don't want to take away from God's glory, but if we see God's glory and other people don't see God's glory, then where does that leave us with these books?
John: there's a different difference between allegory, which is a direct one to one comparison and what Tolkien and later George Lucas would identify as applicability. So an example of allegory would be something like George Orwell’s Animal Farm. That is a clear, direct one to one comparison with characters that are represented, meant to represent the likes of Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Leon Trotsky. Tolkien talked about applicability as this idea of you can come from a very specific background of diversity, but you can see your experience in stories.
And, that was part of the genius of what George Lucas did in Star Wars, in creating the idea of the concept of before it is a spiritual concept, but it is so simple that people can understand it. And yet you can come from a religious background, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, any faith or no faith at all, but still have a value system.
And you still see that reality in there and regarding redemption, that is very much present. And also, I would say in star Wars where you have this, very much aligned between good and evil, but also you have this central arch that it is never too late to stop and look at what you have done and realized I was wrong.
And with that comes forgiveness and redemption. And there's this beautiful scene in return of the Jedi, which is the last film the original, showed you where Luke Skywalker is fighting his father Darth Vader. And, Luke eventually viciously attacks his father with the intent of killing him, even cutting off his hand, just as his father had cut off his hand.
But then Luke realizes what he has done. And he throws his light saber away and says never, I will never turn to the dark side. You cannot win. And it's a very similar thing in Harry Potter where in The Order of the Phoenix, where he [Voldemort] has taken possession of Harry and he's mocking him and saying so weak, so powerless and Harry responds, you're the weak one that you will never know what love or friendship is. And I feel sorry for you. And how similar is that to the words of Luther in A Mighty Fortress is our God: the body they may kill, God's truth abideth still, the kingdom is forever.
Barbara: Neat. I'm wondering if you could explain pluralism? That's a big, fancy word for well, it's not a simple concept, but I know that you can address that because that was one of the concerns that was raised about Star Wars, which you said it in a term of generosity, this is something that a lot of people from different places can come to an understanding and yet that same concept is being objected to.
John: pluralism is this idea that all religions point to truth, all religions are right, so to speak. but the thing with pluralism and Star Wars is once again, it's this idea that there is a shared human experience.
There is this idea that we may have different beliefs about faith, but the central truth that Star Wars points to is that events in the universe are not meaningless. That we are not as, you know, Yoda once beautifully says: luminous beings are we, not just crude matter. He's basically saying your soul is more than that.
And we may have differences of opinion about these matters. But what is true is that for people of faith, we all recognize that there is order to this universe, that there is a creative presence. And the difference I think comes when, whether we are willing to explore and converse about these differences with others or whether we are going to say I'm right, you're wrong, which is this kind of black and white correlation as opposed to searching for that fuzzy, gray middle.
Barbara: is one of the objections that none of these books or movies are explicitly Christian enough? Are they too open, welcoming, vague?
John: that was one that I heard as a child, they have to be one to one correlation, but the reality is that if you think it has to be one to one correlation, I would argue you are actually diminishing the power of God to communicate truth.
We're not trusting if you believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is so almighty and so powerful. You don't have to go about this way of saying everything has to match this way. I mean, look at what Colossians says in Christ. All things are created and coming to be, and therefore, if you are a Christian, you believe and can see the reality of the gospel in stories from across generations.
Barbara: we search for those themes. And frankly, when I spot them, I get pretty excited. I mean, I read Harry Potter and I'm like, wow, this sounds really familiar. So there can be God, there can be our Christian faith, but at some point I'm wondering, just to throw this out there - at what point do we say this may be art, but this isn't God's art anymore? What I'm reading with all these objections is, is it a slippery slope? So when I was researching Harry Potter, there was a quote online about Deuteronomy chapter 18 verses 10 to 14 explicitly command against sorcery.
So this was the objection of we're teaching our children sorcery, which we're commanded against sorcery in the Bible. I don't think it's teaching children sorcery, but let's talk about that, when do you say this is no longer of God?
John: The first response I would give is as someone of Jewish extraction is: you can't cherry pick the law. If you quote one part of the law, guess what? You’ve got to follow, all of it. So no more barbecue for you. Secondly, the way that I like to think about it is, and I can't remember the exact verse, but it talks about whatever is good, whatever is wonderful, think about these things. And I think the common thread with all four of these that we have discussed is that they all provide moral fiber. They all teach that life has dignity and it must be preserved. And Liberty must take the day. I think the fine line it comes when you are seeing something that does not depict this truth. I think it comes when you are faced with something that is portraying a kind of nihilism, a cynicism about the world and a meaninglessness of life. I think that is where the fine line is drawn. but I will say, say that for example, even in a movie like Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction, there is still little hints, amidst all the violence and Gore.
Barbara: I had my eyes closed for most of it.
John: Yeah. And F bombs, there is still little inklings there of gospel truth. They get out. I mean, obviously Samuel Jackson's Ezekiel 25 18, but there's still things there, but the fine line comes, does this story cherish the day dignity of life itself? That's the fine line.
Barbara: That's a great litmus test and people watching on YouTube will see you have tattoos, people listening to the podcast won't know that. So your tattoo doesn't have to be of a cross of Jesus, which if it is that's great, but are we looking towards a hundred percent sanitized version of Christianity? And I try so hard to be an optimist- I grew up optimistic. And then we all have our ups and downs. Does our message always have to be, sweet and kind? Where is there room for raw for pain for people's wretched experiences?
Is there room to say, Hey yeah. There's a whole bunch of mess going on and there is still redemption. There is still hope you are still welcome.
John: There must be room for pain and to bring in experiences of hardship and oppression, because that's what we are called to do as people of faith.
The example that I follow in that personally is what the Catholic priest already know, and identified as the notion of being a wounded healer- that unless you have been through the wringer, so to speak, unless you know what deep heartbreak and pain is, you cannot sit across the table as a minister from someone that is coming to you with pain.
I think that when we talk about, you know, calling out injustice, that's exactly what Jesus did. He followed the example of the Hebrew prophets that came before him, Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and these people did not mince their words about the evil that they saw. I think that in a day and age where Christianity in the United States in particular has come to be associated with the likes of nationalism, racism, and homophobia, part of the way to reclaim the true Christian message is to engage in a modern prophetic consciousness that says, no, no, this is evil. This is wrong. This goes against everything that Christ came to this earth for and for him, meets all humanity in the suffering of the cross.
Barbara: there's room for art, there's room for creativity, there's room for God's message to come through a whole bunch of different ways. And then there's also a time and a place where we can say, okay, that's enough. Go to the movies, but this isn't art anymore. There's no faith message.
And then there's kind of that middle ground where you're seeing little tiny glimmers, but I really like to talk about the elephant in the room. So I am wondering John, are you able to share some of your journey back to church after you separated yourself from it? Are there things that people said or did that drove you away? And/or that welcomed you back? They gave you a sense of sincerity as you pondered coming back to church? And I also suspect that your faith journey and pop culture, maybe somehow connected and as pop culture is rejected by many church bodies or church people.
John: my father is a minister of music, but when I was nine years old, he came out of the closet. And at a very early age, I discovered what homophobia was. I also discovered what antisemitism was and, that journey back took a long time.
Pop culture played a huge role. Things like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter communicated to me things about the gospel that the Bible could not at a time when all I understood the Bible was a weapon to be used by people to tear them down.
The transition came for me when I was in college and I had an advisor who was a political philosopher in the Catholic tradition, but more progressive. He was my Obi wan Kenobi.
He was my Gandalf. He was my Dumbledore. And he saw in me something that was worth investing in. And he was the first person to say to me, you need to think about going into ministry. I spent time in a different tradition of Christianity but what I found is that my theology was not compatible. And I couldn't put my finger on it, but the moment that I read about the theology of the cross from Martin Luther, I instantly realized this is what I have experienced and what I have seen others experience that God meets humanity in the condition of suffering and that God loved humanity enough to live and die as one of us.
And that led to a deeper exploration of other Lutheran thinkers, like Soren Kierkegaard, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And as I tell people, the nail that really turned the coffin was when I read, Nadia, Bolz-Weber
Barbara: fantastic books. I highly recommend them.
John: Absolutely. She curses like a sailor. She has covered in tattoos and I'm just like, that's the kind of pastor I want to be. And, it's that journey too, that you mentioned reconciliation of my Jewish identity. I highly recommend people to read the works of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel. He was a close ally and associated with Dr.King. And if you want to understand Judaism, he's the guy to read. I would also say too, what brought me back onto this journey was this reality and understanding of Tolkien's one short myth that that our job as Christians is to in the words of the old hymn to tell the old, old story of Jesus and his love.
And that includes telling the stories that we love and have touched us and have communicated potent powerful truths of the universe to us.
Barbara: I know that there's thousands and thousands of people on different paths of faith growth, and sometimes you're feeling great, and then sometimes you're just feeling really hungry or disillusioned, or kicked to the curb. And that's a message of welcome that's really important to me that in my God there is not that ultimate rejection, even if you're wandering around that you're welcome home.
And sometimes people feel like they don't have a church home, and I'm not saying your home has to be inside a church building, but that there is that ultimate welcome with God.
And I just wanted to circle back because you said cherry picking laws. And I think that I understand what you mean by that, but I just want to touch on that because there might be some folks that are like, okay, what is all this? Because we've got the 10 commandments and then we have reams- pages and pages, hundreds and hundreds of laws. And I honor that and I respect that, and I know that there's people who to this day still try to keep every single one of those. Those could be our Jewish and our Muslim siblings. There could be other faith groups that I don't have as much of an understanding of. But for Christians to say, these are the ones- because there's even laws about attire in church or where you sit in church or what you eat. And some of that has come now out of the gospel that we are not bound by all of those laws, those hundreds and hundreds of pages of pages of laws. Can you just speak to that for a minute?
John: there was a very strict religious code of observance that was begun through the prophet Moses and that extended into the life of Israel. But the interesting thing about the law and you see this, even in the old Testament, the law begins with an exclusion of certain groups of people, Uzites are evil. Canaanites, they're evil. And then when we come to people like Ruth and Job- Ruth a Moabite, who became the mother of the lineage that would include David and Jesus. Then you have Job, this guy out in the middle of what is called Uz. We don't really know what Uz was, but not a Jew. He's a Gentile.
And yet he is identified as one of the most righteous people. And I think this is why the prophets are so important, particularly Isaiah. Because in Isaiah, we have this idea that God is not just the God of Israel. God is the God of all people. In fact, it's in Isaiah that you get the first true statement of monotheism in the old Testament.
I am the Lord God, there are none beside me, and you see this beautiful transition and understanding that the law is not meant to oppress. It's not meant to shame it is there to protect the dignity of all people. Understanding evolved, and that included elements of the law that were at one time present but are no longer even acknowledged today.
And think about Isaiah's words. Every Valley shall be exalted. Every mountain and Hill should be lift up and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
Barbara: Yep. So we're not saying that the law is completely wiped out. There is still the law. And we are obeying the law out of love, not out of fear.
I talk about it every single time, we are not promoting sorcery or all kinds of other things that are against the law. But for us to say a child's novel is not godly at all because there's a concept inside it, that's not our stance. That's the example you gave of cherry picking the law. That there's lots of other laws that we're not cherry picking or maybe some groups are.
John: we live in a time and place of great confusion. We live in a day and age where the realities of racism are becoming ever more apparent to people that had never hadn't faced them before, where we have come a long way, way in terms of LGBTQ rights and issues, but we still have a long way to go.
Particularly with people who are trans, nonbinary. And the thing is, the work never stops. It never ends. And take it back to talking. There is a beautiful scene in the two towers where Sam and Frodo are just worn out, exhausted and they feel done. And then Sam says, it's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered- folks had plenty of chances of turning back in those stories, but they did, they kept going because they had something and then Frodo asks him, what are we holding onto Sam? And Sam says that there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it's worth fighting for- that is my encouragement to people.
And to also remember that in Christ, we have a strength and a grace and salvation that is freely given is never taken away and is what empowers us to reach out to those who are hurting and broken hearted. And to work that justice and righteousness.
Barbara: some joy and some laughter and then there's really heartbreaking tears, and we're called to support our siblings in so many different ways with a welcome, that's the message I heard from you
John: and indeed, and I appreciate your message and welcome, and your affirmation
Barbara: Thank you so much for your time today, John. Thank
John: you. May God bless you and your ministry as you continue to go about this.
Resources:
Colossians 1:15-20
Authors C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, J. K. Rowling, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Soren Kierkegaard, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
