Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Heather Collis Puro and our topic is mending relationships. I met Heather 15 years ago in Massachusetts when she was part of a farm co-op she was always so kind to me when I asked what Swiss shard was, because I had never seen it before. Heather was born and raised in New Jersey, traveled a great deal as an environmental activist, but has lived in Lynn, Massachusetts since 1999. She was baptized in the Episcopal church and is a member of St. Stephen's in Lynn. Heather's first career out of college was as an environmental organizer, and she's been a teacher at an independent school since 2007. Her latest dream is to spend a sabbatical on the islands of Iona and mall in Scotland, volunteering at the Iona community and as an apprentice at the Arden Alanis weaving center. This would balance her interests in faith, community and handwork.
Welcome, Heather. How are things for you all in Massachusetts?
Heather: Thanks Barbara, for having me, I'm really excited to be here. It is your typical spring here in Massachusetts. There was a little invitation to warm weather earlier late last week. And now we're right back in 20 degrees. So we're still here in winter, but spring is dipping in a little bit.
Barbara: Today's Bible verse is for Matthew, which is one of the gospels past the halfway Mark in your Bible. If you're going to follow along, I'm going to read for Matthew chapter nine, verse 16: “but no one puts a patch of un-shrink cloth on an old garment for the patch pulls away from the garment, and a worse tear results.”
Heather, we're going to talk about relationships today. Can you explain this verse for those of us who don't do a lot of sewing?
Heather: Yeah, it's an interesting one, it's talks about patches. Basically, if you just put a patch on fabric that is weak, it's not going to do any good. It means that then you're going to do some sewing, spend some time, and it's going to rip again anyway. And it's such an interesting passage because we know that Jesus was sent to transform, not just fix things right. And he wasn't going to settle for simply putting a patch on something. And we even use this terminology today, patching up a relationship or mending fences . And they really do mean two different things.
Barbara: So say I have a hole in the knee of my jeans and I'm going to patch it, but it doesn't make sense to use new cloth just over the whole. Cause it will cause more problems later. So then what do you do?
Heather: mending used to be viewed as only folks who really couldn't afford new clothes, mended, their clothes. Folks are thinking about mending and the long-term viability of clothes because of the impact of fashion on the environment.
Sure. with mending, what you need to consider is the garment itself. And so you need to sit with the garment and you really need to look at it. And so what this passage is saying is that the person is just trying to cover up the hole under the garment.
You're going to have to look at the garment and see where are there areas that are still able to be used in the mending. So you can't just put it on there. You've got to go to a part of the fabric that is sturdy. And then there's a lot of mending techniques that actually bring mending to where you would want to see it on the garment.
There's a lot of interest in making mending something that. Transforms the garment into something new. And that's a bit about this faith conversation for sure. But I think mending an object is one thing. And in Japanese culture, there's something called. Can Sugi. Oh yes. Tell us
which is where they make a pageant and something with pot that's made with pottery, something that's broken with gold. And they actually bring the part that's broken and show it as a part of the experience of this object that this object is different. It's broken and it's fixed, but it's different and not trying to hide the broken part.
Barbara: And in fact, some people would see that mending with golden, the seams or the cracks as beautiful.
Heather: Right. And that's what that process does. And that's what this new interest in mending things, not only to help heal the environment and create less impact, but also say this is a valuable garment that I've taken some time to mend and it's different. But it's more beautiful.
Barbara: So we're not just slapping a covering over a little hole in a weak area. And it sounds like nowadays the mending might even become part of the new garment. It might add some visual interest or be creatively done because it's going to be bigger than just the whole. So how can we incorporate this repair into the newness?
Heather: Absolutely. I think the terminology is interesting. I have been fascinated by this topic recently - fixed versus men. The word fix really talks about something being. Fastened in place. So if you think about using these words, even in terms of objects to fix something is to try to bring it back to what it used to be to fix it in place versus mending something versus repairing repair means to go back, to redo something.
And so these words really. Matter. And I do think when we talk about fixing something it does mean that we are not interested in incorporating the breaks were interesting in that it looks exactly like it used to look but we can often use these words when it comes to people and relationships our relationships with each other and either our relationships with God.
Barbara: When you explain it that way, it makes me think, are we doing this just for appearances sake? Like, wouldn't it be convenient if there was a tear right on a seam and you could research the same and nobody would know, but what if everybody knows or what if you know, in your heart, anyway, especially as we move into talking about people and relationships, does it really help to pretend that it never happened to act as if it never happened versus to move forward in a new way?
Heather: we get mixed up as spiritual beings, as people of faith, on what our role is on earth versus what God's role is. And when we want to fix someone, when we say to someone, I'm sorry that that happened, but pray more, or if you do this, things will be better. Instead of being with the situation with someone, we are putting ourselves in a position of judgment and we are not called to be in judgment. That's not our role, that's God's role. It's hard to look at suffering, but reading my Bible, particularly during lent, looking at the suffering in the world and really facing it and sitting with it is what we're called to do, not to judge it and fix it.
Barbara: Jesus didn't avoid suffering and approached it openly and didn't judge either the way the community or the previous rules had. I love the quote that you shared with me from Dr. Susan David who wrote the book, emotional agility. And I just looked it up, people can get the book if they want, but it's also on a website called elephant journal.
She says, “toxic positivity is forced false positivity. It may sound innocuous on the surface, but when you share something difficult with someone and they insist that you turn it into a positive, what they're really saying is my comfort is more important than your reality.”
Heather, that really resonated with me and I'd love to hear your thoughts on relationships. And what's the difference between false positivity and hope.
Heather: We come to understand things, not from our successes, but our failures. I have a colleague who I mentor. I'm a teacher at a school and I really failed her because she was bringing to me a problem and a challenge that she was having, and I immediately launched into fixing it: you could do this, you could do that, have you tried that? And my colleagues stopped me and said, I think what you're saying is about you and what you would like to see. And in fact, they were all things I would like to have seen change because I figured we could just move right through.
You need to fix what we were talking about. If she was having a challenge, I had ideas on how to fix that. And this relationship is important to me. As a mentor, I always learn as much if not more than my mentees. And I really had to sit with wow, it was really about me going, Oh, great, I have a solution for my colleague. I have something that she can do as opposed to sitting and really hearing what she was saying. And interestingly enough, this quote came at me the next day through social media and it struck me because
I thought about the comfort piece and what she's talking about is that when people can understand their emotions, when they can name their emotions, then they can move with their emotions to make the changes that they need to make.
So how this reflects back on this mentoring situation is I was fixing it for my colleague. I was not helping her develop the ability to hope that she could do something about it. And I think that that's what, as people of faith we're being called to do, we are not being called to fix everything for other people to make ourselves feel good, but to really dig deep and sit with the suffering so that there is less suffering in the world.
Cause if I fixed it for her, the next time this happens, she's going to suffer again. That's not hope. That is power. And in this world today, a lot of people have had power and authority affect them in negative ways. And that was not my goal. It's not my goal as a person of faith. And it really made me sit about am I a person of transformation? If I believe in that I need to act differently.
Barbara: And I suspect that you meant well, but meaning, well, isn't the end all and the be all. So even though I believe that you meant, well, it serves us to really examine our motives and sometimes a person comes to us and says, can you help me with this situation?
Which is different than I'm going through the struggle and just accompanying or just being present. And sometimes people don't really articulate it either way so then maybe our natural instinct is to just jump in and
Heather: help. Absolutely. I think we are all hearing about if you are working on diversity, equity and inclusion in your work impact versus intention.
And I'm a white person in a society where white culture dominates. This is one way that we can be aware of our impact on others. It's not my intention. And we need to own that and that's okay. We don't have to take it personally. I had a certain power in this relationship and I feel that I didn't use it to be effective.
If my commitment is to be a person of transformation I can do better. I'm sure I'm going to mess it up again. I'm just that kind of a person I'm a doer by nature.
Barbara: And even from a broader leadership perspective. Yeah. It seems to me that a lot of people really do want to help, but there are hidden biases and agendas. And I know that sometimes people are fully aware of those agendas but it's not appropriate to say, Oh, folks, here is our way for you to quote, fix unquote, this problem. I'm a social worker and even from our faith communities, the language that I first learned was needs assessment and that's deficit based.
And of course there can be needs. I'm not saying there's no needs, but there's also strengths assessments and looking at the resources that are present and really listening to people. Instead of me coming in and saying, I have this great idea. Let's do this. Yes.
Heather: And I think in Christian communities and many communities of faith, it is fascinating to me how we have these stories from the Bible. We have the scripture, we have the prayers and the services that we do that remind us over and over and over again. And yet we do often shut down those who are suffering in our community. We often say to them what can I do to help you?
What do you need? Let's move on to the next step. And I think that that takes away your ability to show someone the strength that they have, it inserts you in a way that makes it about you, even if you don't mean it.
Barbara: but I do want to be hopeful and I used to be a whole lot more optimistic, but I have also had experiences with people who I felt were happy all the time to the point where it drove me crazy. And I feel kind of bad that I don't want to take your joy away from you, but if you can never have a bad day, then it feels fake to me. So how about authentic joy and optimism and hope versus this false positivity?
Heather: Absolutely. And I think to go to the science, that's who this quote comes from as a woman of science who studied emotional agility, and What she would probably say about someone who is kind of terminally positive is that they are, I don't know what else are there words fatally positive.
but is to say they are not really authentic. It's not possible. And that in your family life or your close relationships, it means that you are closed off from other people because you are not able to be anything other than this. And that's just impossible.
Barbara: I need a cheerleader sometimes but is there a balance somehow of yes, let's cheer each other on let's encourage each other sometimes. And this authenticity, it's a huge risk being vulnerable.
Heather: You're getting at the heart of it, which is that in order to be able to have authentic relationships in any community, you do have to be a person of both. I think of the night before it's both kind of a funny, sad story the night before Jesus was to be taken away.
And he asked the disciples to sit with them. And they're just supposed to sit there and they all fall asleep which is very human. But I do think that sometimes we just need to be with others in their suffering and say, I'm not going to turn away from this with you.
And then the other piece that you're talking about, Barbara, and that could be your cheerleader, but you have to gain a rapport with someone like talking about mending,
You have to get to the place where you see the hurt, you see the hole, but then you see where those strong threads are that that mending can be attached to. But you've gotta be able to look at that whole. You've gotta be able to look at that suffering with that person and have them feel that you, he may not understand it, but you're willing to sit there with them and be a part of that with them.
Barbara: as we're talking about mending these ruptures in relationships, I've had experiences in a faith setting where people with this sense of false positivity don't want to hear you say no. I've had times where I said, I can't start this new volunteer opportunity right now. I am completely maxed out. And the other person is like, well, of course you have time. It doesn't take that much time to do what I'm asking you to do.
So how do we accept boundaries at the same time that we will sure you can do it Heather. It's not that big of a deal, but it doesn't matter if I don't think it's a big deal. It's a big deal to you.
Heather: that is that's the magic , when to back off and when to know to pursue something. But I think again if you have in your life, people who respect your boundaries, then you are able to respect other's boundaries.
And as we know in our faith communities, some of it is like family and there are places where there's ruptures, where there's holes and that they need to be addressed. Sometimes it is in the volunteer life.
I think you have to look to yourself first, where your boundaries are and when you're feeling stressed. And when you're feeling angry, you might have to sit with why am I angry? Why am I stressed? And if it's I'm angry, because I feel ashamed because someone made fun of me or made me feel bad because I started a commitment and I couldn't finish it. That's why I'm angry. You know, within my values, I want to be a person who shows up. So maybe it's important for me to go back to somewhere where I've made a commitment, say, you know what? I made this commitment. It's important to me that I fulfill my commitments. I'm not going to do it now, but I'm going to do it in six months. I'm going to come back to it in six months.
Barbara: So sometimes we'd rather and have that commitment be sort of a forever commitment. Sometimes there's already structures in place like, Oh, can you commit to doing something for two years? Or even if it's two months, if it's a short-term project. So can I get through these two years? But then it's like, okay, great. Now it's just yours forever. Cause you did such a good job.
Heather: I know. And that's a really hard thing. And sometimes people shut someone down who is done with a role and just says, Oh no, you've done such a good job. You should always do it. And I think that that can make relationships less authentic. It can be really hurtful because then you're saying to someone that your approval or your relationship with them is based on a role that they're fulfilling instead of their presence in a community.
Barbara: Hey, folks today you get a bonus Bible verse from the gospel of Matthew chapter 10 verse eight: “heal the sick raise, the dead cleanse lepers cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.”
And that makes me think of how can our relationships sometimes feel transactional in nature? And you might've had something completely different in mind with this - I'd love to hear that.
Heather: Transactional, that's so interesting that you bring that up. I hadn't thought about it that way. I was looking at this as a kind of like step off the path from the first one because fixing and healing and mending and making things better, often we feel we are the arbiters of that. And maybe this is what you mean by transactional.
I don't think I'm deciding who gets help and who doesn't. I get help all the time. I am a recipient of grace every single day. When we operate that we are here to serve, we have been helped.
We have experienced grace. We have been healed without having to pay without having to make an appointment even sometimes, or show up at a store. So that's our role. And back to our conversation before, if you think about that your position is to serve others, then you're not getting caught up in whether it's your place to say something that happened is right or wrong or that something is enough or that someone deserves help or doesn't deserve help.
But I agree with you. Sometimes things do feel transactional in this world. That folks are like, well, I went to church last week and for two hours, and that's what I do. I go to church, I pay my pledge. That's my faith. I'm participating in this church community and is that enough? I don't know.
Barbara: Well, I appreciate what you said that judging is God's job. And I know that plenty of people on earth truly myself included judging comes really easily.
Heather: I really focus on the fixing versus mending analogy, where fixing is something where you are trying to make it perfect.
Barbara: you did something wrong and I want to fix your life. And this is how you should fix your life. Like that kind of attitude is not helping anybody.
Heather: Absolutely. And make it all go away, make it look like it always did. Meanwhile, with mending it, like you're saying Barbara, it takes a moment of self-reflection of what can I bring instead of judgment? You know what, in my experience, can I bring I'm imperfect? You know, maybe something has happened to me similar to someone else in
Barbara: no, no, my life is perfect. No, I haven't had any similar problems to yours. No.
Heather: Right, exactly. And that's what you can bring. And you can bring an understanding and really not even step one toe in trying to fix it. And those are hard disciplines. But particularly thinking about faith action and what things Jesus did and what was happening and what was really being said and done at this time is really moving to me. Sometimes reading stories is a way to be inspired on how to help others as well. Reading the Bible and thinking about these things and how universal they are still centuries later.
Barbara: Indeed. Do you have an example of mending a human relationship that might help other people in the future? Or even mending gone wrong. I mean, frankly, don't do it this way.
Heather: I have a really good friend and what I said had hurt her feelings, and that was really hard for me to hear. I was trying to be light and funny. I hurt her feelings, and she was really kind to me. And I remember really sitting with it and thinking about this thing we were talking about earlier about impact versus intention.
And obviously I had an intended to hurt her. But I did say, that is not what I meant. I did not mean to hurt you or embarrass you. But I totally hear what you're saying and I hear what you are bringing to me. And I want you to know, I don't think those things, if that's what it sounded like.
I don't think those things, and I want you to know that and I'm going to be more careful with my words. I didn't defend myself. I really took what she was saying. And I told her that I said the fact that you brought it to me really means a lot to me.
You could have just said, Hey, of course, Heather didn't mean that, but she wanted to know and you brought it to my attention. And that says a lot for our relationship. And I can tell you that in our relationship since then, both of us on both sides have really made sure, because in this time of only talking on the phone and not being in person, or zoom, it's been hard to be really clear when we say things.
And to be really sure that we're understood. So it can be transformative to have someone who's a friend bring you some hard feedback.
Barbara: or let's just brush this under the rug and move on and pretend it never happened. And meanwhile, there could be stuff kind of festering and that in my mind, that goes back to what you said earlier about examining the emotions that might be behind some of our behaviors or some of our comments. I try what you said, too, I try to be funny. And then when I think about it later, it seems like, well, that was just a whole bunch of snark. I don't know if that really contributed to anything, even if people laugh. Was it helpful? Was it kind? There's this whole list of questions that you can ask yourself, and I usually forget.
Heather: Absolutely. When you ask somebody, you said this about me, why? I wonder why you said that, do you think that it's true? And to come at it with curiosity, because I think brushing it under the rug separates us and we need to be closer.
When we're talking about this in terms of diversity, equity, inclusion on a call, and an older woman in the parish was saying how many, many years ago there was a person who just made racist comments and people would go, Oh, that's just good old so-and-so. And it's hard to stand up about things like that, but it's important.
And it's important because I think people want to know the impact. I know that's a huge value of mine and that my good friend came to me and said, this was your impact on me. I was like, this is my opportunity to show up- if I don't show up in this moment, forget every other time that I said the right thing.
Barbara: this mending can be hard. Or confrontation around what's right- I was about to say, well, I'd rather have grumpy than fake happy, but racist is not the same thing. This is serious work. All of this.
Heather: Absolutely. And emotion is not the problem. People are emotional beings. It's not to say if you actually are happy all the time, but in those moments, when you have an emotion that is strong, it could be anger. It could be sadness. It could be grief. Or you're with someone who's having strong emotions to just sit with the emotions, as if you're experiencing them, they can help you go through your values. And what toxic positivity does is it shuts something that's very natural down. And we are human beings. We feel things.
We experience emotion, and if people validate those emotions and help us, particularly when we're suffering, it can then help us have hope and trust and be vulnerable. But if we were told to stuff them, or the only thing that's acceptable is if you have a smile on your face…
Barbara: and we have biblical role models for wide ranges of emotions, too. Jesus wept, God was angry. The disciples were bumbling around, and I'm so grateful that we have some bumbling role models, so I don't want to say to anybody, Oh, well, you have hope in your faith. That's great. We're not saying don't have hope in your faith or don't look to the future with joy. But if someone has some bad news, then are they allowed to just have that bad news even while we have hope for our future, for God's plan?
Heather: For me, one of the most compelling lines in the Holy Eucharist is really about what I think is the call. You know, it says, deliver us from the presumption of coming to this table for solace only, and not for strength; for pardon only, and not for renewal.
And that's what I think you're talking about is, is that when we want to have our emotions and then someone just says, okay, you're forgiven. And then you go back and you have those emotions again, you're forgiven you. It's this is again, back to the mending versus fixing if you want to be fixed.
That is. You're going to stay in one place. If you want renewal, you are going to have to think about what you're going to do to change. And the change needs to be visible, visible, mending. It's going to be something that you people want
Barbara: and not necessarily by our own strength either. And that's okay too.
Heather: Totally. And it could be exactly. And sometimes that is, I think it is that mix, right. Humans have choice, but there's grace and there's also faith for sure. But it is not a static process. And that's where I think this toxic positivity puts us in our place. It's it makes us say, this is what is acceptable. Only this. And that's not the kingdom of God, certainly not. I don't know what, you know, we haven't been in church on a Sunday in person in a long time, but when I look at all the zoom calls and there's not one face of of anything. For sure, for sure. But I think I think this is one of those pieces that we are really unpacking during this time is to really say, what does it all look like?
And I think in our community is many people have been told, you need to get over it. Yes. And I really think that out of coming out of this pandemic and people there's just so much to Wade through. If people tell each other, just move on. I think we're going to have a harder time coming out of it where people are not going to heal.
Barbara: Yeah. I don't think that's really fair. And even sometimes I might want to say it too, so I will confess that I'm not perfect. Sometimes it's like, okay, enough already. And yet, if we are multi-dimensional people, are we allowed to have positivity and stress and terror, et cetera. I have two questions that you get to pick one for the last question today whose voice is missing or is there an elephant in the room when we're talking about mending relations?
Heather: the elephant in the room is that People should just be able to feel what they feel. And being a teacher and seeing parents with young children, there's a lot more permissiveness around children's behavior.
Instead of saying to a child, you got to get yourself together, you got to stop crying, I guess that's what I was thinking about is really what's wrong with positivity, I suppose.
Barbara: Well, I like positivity, but I don't want you to force your positivity on me. It might sometimes need, yeah. A hug, which, you know, good luck with that with COVID, or even the words of a hug or encouragement.
And then sometimes I have actually said to someone, I need to be kicked in the butt and this was over zoom, thankfully. And they said, please consider your butt to be kicked. But I asked, for it. So I do need positivity. Absolutely. And I want to share positivity, but I hope I'm not shoving my positivity down someone's throat.
Heather: Yeah, that's true. And a thinking person, a rational person could see how it's one thing to be positive. It's another thing, if you are negating with someone else's
Barbara: family. Yeah. And on the surface you might say, well, do that's really a first world problem that we're talking about the rightness or wrongness of emotions, but I truly believe that we're also talking about justice and let the little kid cry. Now, I don't want to listen to it for 10 hours straight,
And I know babies have colic, but most kids cry for a while and then they stop. And then you can sometimes tell if it's fake, but if it's legit crying or a grownup, really just since you gave the example of a kid or, or someone who is suffering that at that point, Whose whose power we're talking about power dynamics and, and,
Heather: and that could be the other elephant in the room. If you believe that faith is liberatory, so we were not saved to be lorded over, we have individual choice. We have free will. And so if we really believe that faith is a liberatory practice, that we're being liberated, then we believe that people can make the right choices.
But a successful tactic is not to say to someone, pull yourself together and stop crying, but more to sit with them in their suffering and help them see the hope. But you can only do that by escorting them, not by shushing them, or like you're saying inflicting your positivity on someone else.
Barbara: I venture to say that you and I have had ups and downs in our lives, but even that freedom that you refer to could be a place of privilege for us, even though I don't feel free all the time to even talk like that, where for some folks, yes, they're their faith sets the God sets them free. They're saved and send their real life. They're being
Heather: crushed. Absolutely. And I'm sitting here nodding my head with you because I think this is perhaps the bigger elephant in the room, which is if we cannot see if we cannot sit and look at the suffering of our fellow community members. How are we going to see it? In communities that are not like ours.
Barbara: Okay. We've got some nesting doll elephants here.
Heather: Yes, exactly. But if we are not able to identify and help our communities, where we have familiarity, how are we going to help broaden our communities and make them more diverse?
Barbara: the prejudice, the racism in the world continues because we cannot see how we are racist. We can't see how our inability to look at the suffering, our inability to be with the suffering is continuing the suffering. That's not our intent, so that can't be our impact.
Barbara: I think that's what we're called to do Yeah. So we started talking about mending a pair of jeans and mending one-on-one relationships. And you might or may not think that you're a called person of God, but I believe that all of us are, this a much grander scale than what we originally started talking about.
Heather: I think so. And sometimes people don't want to relate it to the bigger world. I think right now we are sitting back while many things are going on because we're forced to, and reflecting on this now. If we want to make an impact on the world, then also to know how we do treat people day by day does impact the greater world .
So it's both a call to action, but also know that if you're treating your fellow human beings, well, then they are feeling validated. And that can really make a difference in your community or in your family.
Barbara: And even if we don't agree about everything. And that goes back to your comment about judging that my way isn't necessarily the best way, even if I think it kinda is really where's my respect for people's wisdom and decisions about their own lives.
Even though I just said that sometimes people don't really have as many decisions as we would like to think. So that's some homework assignments there is praying about mending and having that starting within ourselves and then extending out to the world.
Heather: I think that's wonderful.
Barbara: thank you so much for your time today, Heather!
Heather: I'm so grateful to have this opportunity to talk with you.
Resources:
Matthew 9:16
Matthew 10:8
https://pebblemag.com/magazine/living/why-sewing-and-mending-your-clothes-is-good-for-the-soul
