Loving Diverse People with Jane

Barbara:  hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is the Reverend Jane Bearden and our topic is about loving diverse people. Jane is a native of Louisiana and Mississippi who spent much of her life in Massachusetts, where she and I met many years ago.

As a young woman, she was excluded from ordination in her denomination, so she studied to be a laboratory professional and worked in healthcare for 30 years until her ordination in 2001. When Katrina struck, Jane went to Biloxi where she served as a disaster chaplain with the red cross. Reverend Bearden served an inner city parish in Massachusetts and during that time she walked two Caminos in Spain. She retired in 2018 and returned to the Gulf coast where she serves as a pastor of a parish once completely destroyed by Katrina. Jane has three grown children and two grands, and has been the parent of a military member for 14 years. Welcome, Jane. How are things in Mississippi for you today?

Jane: Hot, we're pushing 90 now.

Barbara: today's Bible reading is from first John chapter four. If you're following along with the Bible, it's way at the back at the end of the new Testament. So I'm going to read from the inclusive Bible. First, John chapter four, verses 11 to 12 and 18 to 21.

“beloved, if God has loved us so, we must have the same love for one another. No one has ever seen God yet. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and God's love is brought to perfection in us.

There is no fear in love, for perfect love drives out fear. To fear is to expect punishment, and anyone who is afraid is still imperfect in love. We love because God first loved us. If you say you love God, but hate your sister or brother, you are a liar. For you cannot love God whom you have not seen, if you hate your neighbor, whom you have seen. If we love God, we should love our sisters and brothers as well; we have this commandment from God.”

Jane, why is this topic of loving diverse people so important to you?

Jane: loving and being in the midst of diversity, I think is the way that we understand God's nature more fully. I think that when we keep ourselves in isolated, small areas, We become self centered self interest instead of expanding. And for me, God is about expansiveness. It's about reaching out with tentacles, into all parts of creation.

Barbara: Tentacles of love, right?

Jane: Tentacles of love. Yes, absolutely, and they are pervasive and encompassing. So my science background I often try to use metaphors. And as you were saying that I was thinking about amoeba that reach out. And surround that include and bring it back in. And we say that the great mission of us in the church is to work with God, to fulfill the mission of God to pull all things back into God. So probably not the best metaphor, but one that works at least on some level.

Barbara: Sure. And the reason that I specified is because I was certain that that's what you meant, but I wonder if sometimes this passage, it's kind of saying, well, if you don't love everyone, then that's a problem. But I think it is a problem in our society that not everyone is loved. I worry that some people have been excluded and judged harshly.

Jane: right. I posted on Facebook today. A link to one of the local newspapers.

The sun Herald is a fairly widely read newspaper on the Gulf coast and in the county where I live the middle school yearbook has drawn a lot of criticism because in it, the questions that were posed to students were questions that were bullying, gaslighting questions. Who would you not want to go to the prom with?

You know, and so they targeted individuals that were not part of that inner circle. You know, it's an exclusion. And apparently this has been reported and trended through this particular school system for a number of years. Mississippi just passed a law that would exclude trans students from participating in sports and opens the door to harassment and bullying to a very vulnerable population.

So that kind of exclusion, that kind of harassment, that kind of bullying is not consistent with the love of God that is pervasive through the Bible. That constant story of God's redemption of the world our pulling away and God's drawing us back in our pulling away and God's drawing us back.

That's what love is love is, it's a constant, consistent drawing of all of creation you got. 

Barbara: one of the resources that I'm going to be putting on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com is that both of our church bodies, the ELCA Lutherans, and the Episcopal church have shown support to people who might be considered other or different or out.

And that's what we want to talk about today is why is this so important?

Jane:  you will be known by your love. You're not going to be known by creeds. You're not going to be known by how well you do your job. You're not going to be known by who you marry or what you do. You're going to be known by whether or not you extend god's love to others as a vessel and as a beacon. Right.

Barbara: And so bullying and harassing do not have a place in showing God's love.

That's our fear. That's our insecurity and our judgment. And I just wanted to check in with you Jane, because the first time I heard the word gaslighting, I'm like, wait, what does that mean? So I just wanted to double check. I think it means that we sort of influenced people to think that they're being too sensitive or this mean behavior isn't real.

Jane: Belittling of someone. And actually, you know, Barbara goes both ways. I find sometimes the rhetoric of people who are trying to be inclusive sometimes it'd be little, those who are not quite there that happens with racial reconciliation. It happens with xenophobia.

It happens in all sorts of ways. We criticized them, and we are called to be just as welcoming, as loving as the next person. It kinda covers all. I also want to make a point of the church through history. Stephanie spellers has a new book out called the church cracked open, and she made a reference in some interview about the church being supportive of empire.

And that's true. The church has very much been formed and supportive of empire throughout its history. And really before Christianity came into being , it was used as a tool to control other people. So the language that we use in our liturgy today, while it's language that is traditional, and it's been spoken through the centuries and we love it.

You know, we talk about the Episcopal prayer book. Thomas Cranmer's words, we talk about the being so beautiful and how comforting it is and how we really just want to come and spend an hour being sustained and nurtured and comforted. But that's not what people of faith are called to do.

People or faith are called to be nurtured and then to go out. It's the going out and carrying that word out that makes the difference and our language in our liturgy. When our language says, turn in, the father language, the controlling language, the exclusionary language that's in there. If we don't work to rid ourselves of that language, then we’re going to stay trapped, right where we are.

One of the things that we say often is may the peace of Christ be with you. So I changed that a little bit. I say, beloved of God, the peace of Christ is always with you. It's not me telling them that I can bestow it or they can bestow it on themselves. It's there. All we have to do is grasp it.

Barbara: So one group of people that has been routinely excluded, bullied and harassed are those who may identify along a spectrum, where the acronym is LGBTQ I a plus. And so that's a whole bunch of different folks different ways of being both physically and in relationships. And I just wanted to check in with you on what have you noticed, what have you experienced that's happening in terms of mistreating a very, very large group of people?

Jane: So It's pervasive. First of all, I think that at the root of it is fear. Fear of loss of control, fear of loss of identity, fear of not knowing just the unknown. So the more we are together, the more we acknowledge and be present with each other. The more we understand and the more Welcoming, we can be on both sides.

The letters can become daunting. I'll tell you that in our publications, we talk about folks F O L X. And actually that's everyone that's not just People that are members of that particular community, but it's all of us are folks in God.

All of us are beloved of God. So I try to not use father language. I try to not use language that sounds judgmental, but language that changes the place to be a place of welcome. And in diversity and diversity, not just in our gender orientation or in identity, but diversity in who is the musician, who just loves to listen?

Both are necessary, both can be affirmed. You know, all of that diversity feeds us in ways that we just don't always appreciate right at the first time. Our particular parish, is maybe close to 30, 35% folks, members of the LGBTQ plus community. We had merged with an Episcopal mission that was founded particularly for that community and was led by Aaron Montgomery, who was a dear friend.

And came out late in life, but was a profound preacher and leader and drew people who had been shunned by the church for a long time, drew them in. And we had a common mission. So we came together and he's retired now, but many of the people in that community, it was called the lighthouse community, still worshiped with us.

And we've all become one in St. Patrick's. But our latest thing, that we're doing right now, is trying to address a real need. And I'll tell you, I wish I could say, but it's going great guns and we're going to start in September, but it's not, it is one hard, long step at a time.

One of my families in the parish has a daughter who is trans going into the ninth grade. Bullied unmercifully at school and really by administration and teachers as well as students. And so this family wanted to homeschool. So we started thinking in terms of how could we support that?

Barbara: So it was too painful for this particular young person to even be in the school?

Jane: a young person that's not being treated right. That was the kernel of an idea. And you know me, so you know that when I get an idea, I'm like a bull, I go after it with a lot of energy. So we started thinking about how could we possibly form a homeschooling pod. A place where children who were bullied at school, that their parents might not have the resources to teach them themselves, but the parents could come and be the guides in that work and the church could then possibly raise some money.

Through grants or whatever, to hire a couple of teachers for maybe three to six hours a week, that would do the heavy lifting of the sciences, math, language, things that the parents might not be able to teach, but that we could have kids come out of a homeschool environment with an education that would send them off into a world, better able to compete.

It's not easy. It is not easy. The parish is behind it, we ended up calling the project lighthouse for learning so that we draw in the community that we have. I have found online there's a Facebook group of trans parents. And better homeschooling and the pods that they've sought.

There's a lot of people out there and I've connected with some of them, mostly in the Midwest or out in different places. Not here. There's no one here locally. So we are working with P flag, it's allies and members of the LGBTQ community coming together to work for children, to raise them up in healthy ways.

And so we've invited them to meet in our facility and we've got people coming and we know that the first step it's going to build trust. Because these kids have been let down an awful lot. And so you don't want to promise something that you can't deliver, but you don't want to not take a chance if there's an opportunity.

So that's kind of where we are right now, but I am excited about it, particularly in this part of the country. That we are openly stepping out and saying, we're not going to let this happen.

Barbara: We love these kids, we don't want them to kill themselves. This is a very real issue. We're talking about God's love, but children try to kill themselves more often when they feel so bullied and rejected, whether it's because of their sexual identity or another matter as well.

Jane: I read an article that said 47% of kids who identify as trans attempt suicide at some point. That's scary.

Barbara: That is just heartbreaking because they feel rejected and judged- kids get picked on for any number of reasons. I've worn the wrong clothes. In elementary school, I ate the wrong lunch. Blah-blah-blah, but I didn't think about killing myself because I was bullied for my clothing or my food. But this is very, very serious. 

Jane: It is important. You know, the story of Jesus and the woman that was being stone. So the bullying is really a 21st century equivalent of that stoning. That's what they're doing. They're slinging stones until the person absolutely dies.

Barbara: And it's causing mental health issues- could be depression. Sometimes people turn to substance abuse to try to numb the pain. And again, lots of people do that regardless of their gender identity or where they fall on the spectrum. But what we're really inviting is to consider that there's a lot of different philosophies looking at the Bible, and I'm really grateful, Jane, what you said that we also shouldn't judge people who judge harshly. If we're talking about mercy and love, then let's have compassion on everyone. But I have been taught it's my understanding God is the final judge. And yes, there are times when we can say to each other, Hey, I'm really worried about what you're doing.

Are you hurting yourself? Are you hurting other people? But when are there things that we can say, you know what? God is going to judge that. This person isn't hurting themselves. They're not hurting anybody else. Is it really my business to be saying you shouldn't be who you are.

Jane: So Barbara, I think there's a little bit of a difference between judging someone and saying to someone that particular thing that you said, or that particular thing that you did does not express God's love and the way that I understand God's love to be.

So, you remember Jane Gould? I always loved Jane because Jane could name the sin. She had no compunction about sitting with someone and naming the things. Whatever it was, so that was one of the lessons that I hope I took away from her was to not make excuses for someone when they are doing things that are hurtful and mean. That puts the sin back on me.

If I let that go without acknowledging. But we don't like to do that. You know, especially in the south, we don't like to do that. We just sell, bless her heart and we just move right on.

Barbara: I thought that was a really nice thing to say the first time I heard it. Cause I didn't really understand, but now I understand it is not a nice thing to say.

Jane: It is not a nice thing to say at all.

Barbara: I meant also that we're talking about different types of either judging or confronting people or holding each other accountable. So what I am also thinking of is what you said before that there's fear involved. Is this person going to act inappropriate around me or my kids.

And so I also really want to say that lots of people do wrong things. So I don't agree at all about this fear of, oh, someone who's gay or trans or something like that is going to act less safe. That say, for example, than someone who is straight or who doesn't identify as gay. People, unfortunately do horrible things to each other, no matter what. There is a lot of fear or just not understanding or thinking what's this all about? 

Jane: I think fear is the ultimate driving force to most of the world's problems. The fear of loss of control of something we had no control over in the first place. Racism, that's fear. I'm not talking about the fear of being injured. I'm talking about the fear of losing power. Jesus never talked much about sex. I don't think he ever mentioned sex, but he sure did talk about power and money.

Barbara: That's right. And he said, whoever has not sinned cast the first stone and nobody cast the first stone.

Jane: Right. Because when you're being honest with yourself, you can't. You can't do it.

Barbara: I'm really glad you told us about some of the things that your particular congregation or this group of folks in your area is doing. And I've heard great things about this organization Pflag. I'll put that website also up and I have another one called reconciling works.

That's one of the Lutheran affiliate groups on how churches can show welcome. And one question that's on the reconciling works website is, we are welcoming of everyone. So why do we have to say so? Why is it important to be really clear who we welcome instead of just saying, everyone's welcome here?

 Jane: So we don't use the word welcome. We use the word intentionally affirming.

Barbara: That's very different. That's more proactive.

Jane: It's proactive. And that was a lesson that we learned from the lighthouse community. So our language gets changed because of the open dialogue.

Okay. But we find that you might welcome someone, but you're not accepting or affirming of them, but to be intentionally affirming means that everything that we do from our barbecues to our liturgy, to our Lenten services to summer backpacks, all of it is designed to intentionally honor and uphold the diversity  that we have in our congregation and any that might come from the outside. So I do like that. That was a big deal. When we took the  “welcoming community” off of the marquis on the front of the church and wrote intentionally affirming. It changes things.

Barbara: Sometimes I feel like the word welcome could mean come on in and do things the way we do things already. Which on the surface, there's nothing wrong with it.

But to say we intentionally affirm if, there's say for example a couple that comes in and many people have grown up with this model of there's, a straight couple, basically a man and a woman and, or race you had also brought up.

So we intentionally affirm that there's not one and only one way that things could be or should be that folks come on in and we affirm you.

Jane: Yeah, that's right. One of the the graces of having built up some trust is that we all have idiosyncrasies that are laughable, that we can laugh at ourselves.

There's a difference between laughing at someone and laughing with someone. So for sure, all people have things that are a little funky, you know my sandals are funky. The fact that I put socks on with my sandals in the winter, down here, that draws a lot of laughter, when I come in and my socks. But being able to laugh at my own ignorance of communities, that I'm not a part of off being able to laugh at my misunderstandings.

And to know that because I'm intentionally affirming them, they're also gonna intentionally affirm me. And they're going to say you are so full of it. Let me tell you great, great. Then I learned something and when we can all begin to grow and learn and experience joy, that's when I think God is in our midst.

Barbara: Do you have some suggested language of either what to say or what to ask or what not to say and what not to ask in alignment with this intentionally affirming?

Jane: I'm learning Barbara. I'm on a real learning curve. I don't say my brothers and sisters. So,  that was a common thing. Five years ago, I would've said my brothers and sisters and I would have thought I was including everyone in the group.

Barbara: because you're either a boy or a girl, or you're either a man or a woman. So that therefore you are either my brother or my sister. And we're saying no, someone may not feel like a brother.

Jane: That's not the case. So I say beloved of God. Errol taught me that.

There are a lot of hymns that I don't sing anymore. I don't let them be sung. There are some things that the father language or the exclusive language is so embedded, but it is such a familiar thing. But we use it anyway. I try to acknowledge it. I'm trying, and I think that's all we can ask of anybody is to try.

We do use folks a lot. I have reworked much of the language in the Eucharistic prayer to say, holy God, instead of holy father. I just am not comfortable anymore with it.

This coming Sunday, we're going to use creedal statement from the Iona community. That is is beautiful. And I'm not gonna just bring it in. I'm going to preach on it. I'm going to talk about the language of us being in relationship being involved and in the end, I think that intentionally affirming thing is about relationship.

I think it's being in relationship with God and with the people around us and with myself. But that, that intentionally affirming mindset brings about, it opens us up to the possibilities of relationship.

Barbara: I imagine that I would feel much more valued. I would be getting a message from you that we love each other for who we are, as we walk in the door, that it's really very affirming of who you feel like God created you to be is okay. And we're not going to try to change you. We're not going to say, oh, you need to be different from who you are.

Jane: That makes people right where they are.

Barbara: Yeah. And we all change overtime anyway. Just not everybody changes in the same direction. So we're not saying that this is the certain path.

When I meet someone who I'm just getting to know to not make assumptions. So maybe a more neutral word is partner or spouse.

Jane: One way to address that or one way to move it along is to listen for how the person talks about themselves. So for me to be open and out there about saying that, I know that you know the my oldest son is gay. And when I talk about them, I talk about my two sons and all and my one daughter-in-law and that puts everybody on the same footing.

And yes, spouse and partner, those are important words too. And if you don't know how they want to be addressed, then that's certainly appropriate.

Barbara: some people know very young in their life that their identification doesn't match their physical body or who they want to be with doesn't necessarily match traditional societal expectations. Do you have any observations about this process of life and growing?

Jane: I think some of that is a case of not opening your eyes and seeing what's right in front of you. Because the spectrum of emotional development and sexual development and mental development, it's all a spectrum.

And we are all somewhere on it. And sometimes moving back and forth. I think we talk about autism as a spectrum, but right. Sexuality, I think, and our development, I think, that's also a spectrum. So I think that you can't really pin somebody down to say, this is where you are, who you are.

I do think that as we worshiped together, I think it's important to acknowledge the different needs that we bring to the place, because they're not all the same. People come in with different understandings, people come in with different needs for their own formation or for their understanding of their role in the world, their relationship with God.

So I think as people of faith, I think it's important to meet people where they are. Yes. And I think that's the affirming piece of it

Barbara: to not make assumptions,

Jane: to not make assumptions.

Barbara: And even though I had Sunday school as a kid, it's still really helpful for me now to have ongoing faith formation and add into this basic outline. When you're 10 years old, you have a different understanding of a Bible story than you do when you're 20 or even 30 or 40 or anything.

Jane: Right. Last week I was one of the participants in a Lutheran program called the festival of homiletics and one of the speakers was Brian McClaren. He was talking about preaching and he said, when you go into a congregation, you've got people who just want to know what's right and what's wrong. You got people who want to know the history, the language behind it, why it was written that way. And then you've got other people who are rejecting everything are going to say, and they're just, I don't have want to have anything to do with it. And then there's another group of people who are open to the movement of God's spirit through all of those different places. And he said somehow or other, the preacher needs to be able to talk to each one of those and define some way to connect. Connection, relationship acknowledging and affirming where you are, whether you are preaching or whether you are teaching in a classroom or whether you're walking down the street, whether you're the boss in some office space.

 Those are all the same lesson about reaching people where they are , and finding an affirming way to acknowledge that this person is not in the same place as this person. So Brian was talking about preaching, but I think it's really a life lesson.

Barbara: And people may want to learn more about this topic or any other topic.

And so some people want to read books. Some people want to watch videos or look at websites or just have conversations and inquiring in different ways. We all have different learning styles as well. So do you have any resources, suggestions of where people can go to learn more about anything that we've talked about today?

Jane: I think if you start with a widely known organizations, such as P flag, they will link you to different things. I know on the NPR channels on the PBS channels, they have some excellent programs on how to be affirming of people on that spectrum of gender and sexuality.

Some really good programs about the development of kids who are transgender.

Barbara: And I'm just prayerful in my heart that this message of love can also be heard with love and acceptance, because I feel like it's just fraught that there's so many different opinions and fears.

But I always like to ask can you think of any voices that are missing? Who can we really listen to? Who can we pray to have a better understanding that's on this topic?

Jane: the voices that I think are missing or that third group that Brian was talking about- the ones who have had it with the church and are walking away.

And I think it is the vast majority of humanity that has just gotten fed up with it.  I'm an optimistic kind of person. Well, maybe I'm a realist, but I have an optimism about the world. I think that, that the young people today are digging more deeply than we did and are trying really hard to live their own lives.

But at the same time, to not let their lives control or harass someone who's not in the same. One of the things that we were going to talk about was the Camino before this, and I think that one of the saddest things that can happen to someone is to never experience food from other cultures.

You don't have to go to Italy to experience really good Italian food. Now you may not be able to find it on the Gulf coast. There are things like Indian foods, you got to go to New Orleans. You know, there's just not that here, but we've got some pretty good fried catfish. But when you eat together and Jesus, when he had people, he brought them in and they ate together

Barbara: the rejects that people were afraid of and hated.

Jane: that's right. But when you gather around that table and everybody, there's an Ethiopian restaurant in Washington that my daughter takes me to, when I go up there that they put the food in the middle of the table, and you reach in with your finger. I love it. It is so much fun. Maybe not the best COVID practice.

And that was part of what the Camino did for me was sharing. People from all over the world, you don't speak their language. You have no way to communicate, but when someone says “dos cafes con leche” and you sit down at a table and you've got that warm liquid in front of you , there is a connection and that's, to me is just what life is about. It's about making those connections.

Barbara: And I would also urge that we pray for each other and our own discernment and wisdom, but also that we just pray for people's relationship with God. But again, coming from a place of love, it's not my job to pray to fix somebody. I want to pray that we're all in God's hands.

Jane: my favorite prayer of all the prayers and the prayer book is keep watching your Lord with those who work or watch or weep  this night and give your angels charge over those who sleep.

Tend the sick, Lord Christ, give rest to the weary, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous and all for God's love sake. Amen. That is what I go to bed with. Keep watching.

Barbara: Yes.

Jane: And God does keep watch.

Barbara: Thank you so much, Jane.

Jane: come down and visit.

Resources:

1 John 4:11-12, 18-21

https://reconcilingworks.org/resources/

https://www.nigelpaine.com/uncategorized/the-iona-creed/

 https://www.elca.org/Faith/Faith-and-Society/Social-Statements/Human-Sexuality  

 https://www.episcopalchurch.org/who-we-are/lgbtq/  

The Church Cracked Open by Stephanie Spellers

Bonhoeffer with Blake

Barbara:  Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Blake Shipman. And we're going to be talking about a pastor in Germany many years ago, whose life and writings are still relevant today.

I met Blake at Wartburg theological seminary, where we have both been students. Blake is from Illinois and has lived in Iowa for his undergraduate degree from Wartburg college and is currently a master of divinity student at Wartburg seminary. He's a cradle Lutheran and has worked in parish ministry for nearly three years. Welcome, Blake. How are things for you these days?

Blake: Thanks for having me. Barb, things are crazy, but God is still good. And so I'll continue on.

Barbara: Our Bible passage today is from Romans chapter 13, verses one to five. And if you're following along in a paper Bible, it's towards the back of the Bible in the new Testament. I'm going to read verses one through five from the message version of Romans 13.

“Be a good citizen. All governments are under God in so far as there is peace and order it's God's order. So live responsibly as a citizen. If you're irresponsible to the state, then you're irresponsible with God and God will hold you responsible. Duly constituted authorities are only a threat. If you're trying to get by with something decent citizens should have nothing to fear. Do you want to be on good terms with the government, be a responsible citizen and you'll get on just fine, the government working to your advantage, but if you're breaking the rules right and left, watch out the police aren't there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order and he uses them to do it. That's why you must live responsibly, not just to avoid punishment, but also because it's the right way to live.”

Typically, we would talk about this Bible verse right now and why did we pick it and things like that. Just for today, I was hoping that we could take a look at the life of this man Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And then get back to this verse a little bit later on for reasons that will hopefully become obvious at that point.

And would you start us off with a morning Prayer that was written by our pastor theologian Bonhoeffer?

Blake: This prayer comes from Bonhoeffer’s time in prison. He was in prison towards the end of his life, between the years 1943, 1944. And he wrote letters and papers. He wrote just to write, he wrote poetry- and the guy never wrote poetry in his life until then. And so this is one prayer that comes out from his letters and papers, which is a massive anthology of all his writings from the time he was imprisoned to the time that he was executed by the third Reich. So this one is dated November 23rd of 1943. And this is a prayer for prisoners in the morning.

“God, I call to you early in the morning, helping me pray and collect my thoughts. I cannot do so alone. In me, it is dark, but with you, there is lights. I am lonely, but you do not abandon me. I am fainthearted, but from you will comes my help. I am restless, but with you is peace. In me is bitterness, but with you is patience. I do not understand your ways, but you know the right ways for me.”

Barbara: when did you first hear about Bonhoeffer and what was intriguing to you about him?

Blake: I first heard about Dietrich Bonhoeffer in my final year of undergraduate work at Wartburg college. And I was taking a class on Lutheran heritage and we were taking the Lutheran faith from the time of the reformation up to the present day.

And one of the projects was giving a report on the confessing church and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And that I knew that he was a German theologian. I knew he had something to do with world war II, but that's it. So I delved in and I called Dr. Craig Nessan, he's the Dean at Wartburg theological seminary. And he is also one of the premier American Bonhoeffer theologians. And he gave me the whole timeline of what went down when and where and why Bonhoeffer is such a force in the theological world still to this day.

And that planted the seed. And then I came to seminary. And we started reading Life Together and I realized, I like this work. My theology and his theology are pretty close to each other. And so I wanted to read more and more and more.

Barbara: I do believe that certainly Bonhoeffer is a theologian and that's a pretty big word, but I also believe in another concept that Lutherans talk about, which is the priesthood of all believers. And that includes a word that we don't typically use often, I mean priests, because our pastors aren't typically called priests.

I'm wondering , who is a theologian and what is this priesthood of all believers business? Because I tend to put people on pedestals and Bonhoeffer's definitely on a pedestal, even though I know that we're not really supposed to do that.

That's not always the greatest idea, but I don't want him to seem so distant. So that's why I'm asking what is it theologian? And to what extent are we all theologians?

Blake: a theologian is anyone that takes the word of God and try to decipher what it means for themselves, in their time and their space. You're a theologian, Barb, I'm a theologian. Anyone that wrestles with the word and tries to decipher what's going on is a theologian.

And the priesthood of all believers- in the time of the reformation, the Catholic church had this idea of there is the laity and then the priesthood, and the priesthood are in a class of their own. And Martin Luther, the person who kicked off the reformation, came in and said, no, it's not like that. We are all on the same playing field. We are all in this priesthood. We are all ordained as good by God, even though we are sinful and broken. And so because of that, we are all priests in the priesthood of believers.

Barbara: Thank you. And some people go to school and read 800 page textbooks. This one's called The Bonhoeffer Reader. It's edited by Green and DeJonge. And I have a couple of quotes for us to talk about, but you don't have to read fancy books to be working through this stuff in your heart and your soul and in your mind and talking with other people about it. One of the important concepts that I took from a class that I also took from Dr. Nessan, that included conversations about Bonhoeffer was the concept of grace and discipleship. And Bonhoeffer used a very interesting term that I had not heard before, even though I, like you, am a cradle Lutheran- and I hadn't heard of the concept of cheap grace before. It sounds kind of weird. It's really an interesting term. So on page 456 of my Bonhoeffer Reader book, it explains “discipleship is the reception of God's grace in faith and obedience to God's command.” So how about cheap grace?

Blake: I'm going to take a crack at reading something out of Discipleship. He wrote this when he was teaching at the underground seminary in Germany, now modern day Poland. And this is what he wrote about.

“Cheap grace is that grace, which we bestow upon ourselves. Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without repentance. It is baptism without the discipline of community. It is the Lord's supper without confession of sin. It is absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship. Costly grace is the hidden treasure in the field for the sake of which people go and sell with joy, everything they have. It is the costly Pearl for which price the merchant sells all that he has. It is Christ's sovereignty. It is the call of Jesus Christ, which causes a disciple to leave his nets and follow him.”

So that's what Bonhoeffer writes about cheap grace, and I teach cheap grace like this. So say I go out and do something bad. Let's say I robbed a store, and after I'm done robbing it, I think, well, I can forgive myself for this. So it's all fine. So I'm bestowing this grace upon myself. And while it might work for a little while, in the end, it's not God's grace given to me, it is a grace I bestow upon myself. So I've cheapened this whole idea of grace so much so that it's not of use.

Barbara: it sounded to me when you were reading, it's almost like taking the easy way out. Like we want people to take the good stuff. Absolutely. And the good stuff is free and yet there's more to it than just saying I forgive myself. And also back to a little bit of an earlier conversation too, when you talk about confession and forgiveness, that's something that's also different in some faith denominations, because there's ways of having confession directly one-to-one with someone, there's confession in a group that many churches do during a worship service where everyone reads the same words and then they're forgiven as a group. I don't want to oversimplify it, but it's kind of taking the easy way out.

Blake: I think you're spot on. It's taking the easy way out, indeed.

Barbara: discipleship isn't supposed to be always super, super hard all the time, but it can be hard and we'll be talking more about that. Now you mentioned underground and I know what you're talking about, but I just wanted to follow up on that. Can you explain for a minute when you said that he wrote this from an underground seminary, what was that all about? Was it really underground?

Blake: I say underground seminary to say that it was a seminary in hiding. And so the dynamics of Germany at the time, we're in the era of the third Reich, Nazi, Germany. In order to get more control over the German people, the Reich also influenced the regional churches of Germany very heavily. So they formed what they call the Volkskirche, the people's church. And there was a group of theologians that spoke out against it and said, we are not going to do what they commanded us to do, which was pretty severe.

They were trying to “de-Jewify” the Bible, as one person called it. So they took out the old Testament, took out all the Psalms. They took out every aspect of Jesus being Jewish. And that was going to be the scripture.

And this group of theologians got together and said, we're not going to do this. And so they formed what they called the pastor's emergency league. Martin Niemoller was the first leader of this, and then he was subsequently arrested and thrown into a concentration camp early in the war and he survived.

You might've heard of his famous poem- first, they came for so so-and-so, and I didn't say anything. And then they came for … and then they came from me, and I had no one to speak up for me. And Bonhoeffer was a part of this group as well. And the pastor’s emergency league morphed into what's called the confessing church.

And they signed this unified document saying, this is what we believe. This is what we have against the people's church. And then the state came in and said, Nope, you're outlawed. You can't do this. You can't preach in churches. You can't teach. So they said, we will go into hiding.

And so that's exactly what they did. And Bonhoeffer was over in England at the time, pastoring a German immigrant church in London. And then when he came back to Germany, he became the head of a seminary. And this was a hidden seminary in Germany. This was Northeast of Berlin, North sea. And they actually took over this estate of a family and  the matriarch in the family was very kind of on offer and said, come on in we'll we'll house. You. And so he set up the seminary and he taught for the church and eventually the Reich found out that they were doing this and they came in and shut them down.

But even then, Bonhoeffer found places to put his pupils into different parishes, and he would travel around and make sure they're doing okay. And then they would gather them in random spots, sometimes the shed in the middle of the woods, and they would have class together.

And that held up until the war on the Eastern front broke out. So that was the underground seminary, and it was going up until the start of the invasion of Poland.

Barbara: I have one little spot of levity for us before we really dig deep into some substantive and serious conversation. And that is that Bonhoeffer did write a lot about life and community, which you had already referenced. He wrote about silence and life with other people. And I found just one particular sentence, very humor-full, he wrote about singing. He said, unison singing is better. And this is a quote, “the solo voice drowns out everything else, bellowing and quavering at the top of its lungs.”

Blake: he was a very jovial man. He was a talented musician. He played piano, any chance that he got to make music, he was there. His family was full of musicians and they would get together and they would have these jam sessions of classical musicians throughout the eras. And he also enjoyed the little things in life, like a good walk. He was a man that knew self care well, and so he there'd be days where he would get the seminary and the teaching. Then all of a sudden, he would say, that's enough for today. Let's all go to the beach. And so they would all go to the North sea and have a fun day.

Barbara: wasn't he also influenced by the music that he heard in New York in churches?

Blake: Indeed. Bonhoeffer was over in New York twice, once as a student at union theological seminary and the next time as a guest lecturer at union. And while he was at union, he has been recorded to say that he learned the most from his time in Harlem.

And he went to Abyssinian Baptist church in Harlem, and he heard all of these African-American spirituals while he was there. He loved them so much that they impacted his life in a very fun way. When he was over in the seminary, there would be afternoons where he would just sit with a record player and put on one of the spirituals that he heard in New York. And that would be the community's time together.

Barbara: we're going to be really now getting into some serious stuff. And the New York pieces is a little bit of a segue as well, because the Bible verse from Romans could go in lots of directions. We could have a year's worth of podcast episodes just about these verses here, but when it comes to Bonhoeffer, we have some quotes from him as well as more of the story of his life. And I wanted to bring up a quote from the textbook that there are three possible actions from the church to the state. One is questioning the state as to the legitimate state character of its actions. Service to victims. And then finally seizing the wheel. If the church sees the state to be failing in its function of creating law and order.

And the reason that we have this Bible verse is that in Romans we're told that governments are good, governments are from God and that citizens should be good citizens. And now one of the questions becomes, when do you say no? And you had already talked a little bit about that at the beginning, when churches were told to leave out the whole old Testament and the Psalms and not mention that Jesus was Jewish. And I'm wondering if you could just tell the story of how and when did Bonhoeffer returned from New York? Why did he return and how was his thinking and teaching being shaped by what was happening in his Homeland at the time?

Blake: Bonhoeffer was in New York the second time. He was going over as a guest lecturer at union. He heard that war is going to break out in Germany any day. Now his parents were writing him saying, this is not looking too good for us. You might want to get home. And [his mentor] was saying, we can shelter you. We can safeguard you. You can say in America, we will make sure that you have whatever you need. And Bonhoeffer said, no. If I want to have any stake in rebuilding my country after this, I need to go and suffer with my people. So from the get go, he had a sense of camaraderie with the suffering people in Germany and he wanted to be there to be with them in their suffering.

So it never was a question of do I stay or do I go? It was always, always, I will go back and be with my people no matter what.

Barbara: unfortunately, we know how it ended and he didn't know at the time, but I'm sure he was intelligent enough of a person to know that it was a risk or is always a risk, especially with rumors, maybe floating around and things built up kind of gradually. So people became more astute.

Blake: When it comes to Romans 13, this is a big old ball of wax that we've been wrestling with for a long time. And I think in the vein of Bonhoeffer offering theology, he would say yes, Romans 13 is there, but we also have a vested interest in making sure that those who are on the fringe, those who are being persecuted are taken care of.

So what's more important? Listening to Romans 13 and following up the state says, or listening to our commandment from Christ? Following the great commission, living as Christ would live in our world, and love your neighbor?

Barbara: I've got a couple of more quotes to bring us even deeper into this because Bonhoeffer also said if government oversteps its task at some point by making itself Lord over the faith of the church community, then at this point, it is indeed to be disobeyed for the sake of conscience and for the sake of the Lord.

I know it in this day and age 2021, our political system is to some degree in upheaval about this. So I don't mean right now today to go do something. That's not at all what we're saying, but in the context of world war II, this makes a lot of sense to me.

And I'm sure that Bonhoeffer witnessed and heard about many government overstepping.

Blake: The government had their whole hand in the way that the church was being ran. Hitler himself would name puppet leaders to the Volkskirche- even at times [they] would rebel and say, no, we can't have this.

And for the most part, the third Reich had control over everything that the church would do. That is that speaking to exactly what you're saying, Barb, that when [government] makes themselves Lord of the church, then you need to do something. And that definitely was happening in Bonhoeffer's time. Another thing that the state was doing, if pastors had Jewish descent, they had to step down from the pulpit. Didn't matter if they were presenting the gospel of Christ, didn't matter how far back it was, in the eyes of the third Reich, you were Jewish and you were subhuman.

Barbara: And even beyond the church, I know that Bonhoeffer was aware of many other things, just culturally going on in terms of people were expected to denounce their neighbors. People were being carted off in the middle of the night and after a while, it wasn't even in the middle of the night anymore.

And one of the things that when I was talking about putting people on pedestals, I know that there has been some talk about people were surprised that it appeared that Bonhoeffer was actually working for the government in a government building. Can you speak a little bit about that?

Blake: I sure can. So the movie Valkyrie is this suspenseful film that tells a story of this plot to assassinate Hitler and take over the German state by implementing their plan of succession, which was called operation Valkyrie. So this was a true story and Bonhoeffer had a hand in this plot.

So Bonhoeffer was recruited by some family members [who] worked for the military intelligence service, which was the branch of the government that was getting ready to perform this plot.

And he had connections to the church of England. And through that, he had connections to the English government, because at that time, the church of England and the government were pretty much hand in hand.

So they wanted to use Bonhoeffer to communicate with the allies, to see if they can negotiate peace and see what could happen there. And they also use Bonhoeffer's contacts to help free some Jewish citizens of Germany and help them escape. And so they had a group of Jewish people escaped through the mountains in Southern Germany, into neutral Switzerland.

So yes, Bonhoeffer worked for the government. And for the longest time before any of his writings came out, a lot of people saw that and thought, hold up. He's going against what he said. We can't listen to this guy. He was obviously a turncoat. It wasn't until after his letters and papers from prison came out, that people started to realize that no, he was actually more or less being a double agent working seemingly for the government, but also working to assassinate Hitler and do all the things that he did.

So he was arrested originally for helping Jewish people escape into neutral Switzerland. It was at the closing days of the war. And so eventually they put him on this convoy of very influential people. There was Bonhoeffer, there was the famous polka musician. There was a relative of Joseph Stalin in this convoy that was being moved from prison down into the Southeastern corner of Germany.

We don't know exactly where they're heading. There's a theory that Heinrich Himmler himself knit this group of people together to use them as bargaining chips. So after the war was ended, he could negotiate his freedom by saying, I have all these people, you can have them if I can go free. So that's what they think was going on. But we can't prove that one way or another. So they put them on this transport and he starts going South. And then the SS discovers this incriminating piece of evidence that more or less implicated Dietrich, and many other friends and relatives in the plot to assassinate Hitler. And so they said, okay, well we have them in prison, so let's go and arrest them and execute them.

And then they realized, Oh wait, we put them in the convoy. Where are they going? And so they started to track them down and they were in the South Eastern corner of Germany, 10 miles away from the Czech border at that time. And they decided to stop for the night.

And so they put all the prisoners in the school. And at that point in time, we're coming to the closing days of the war. And I say that because Germany was hurting for a lot of resources at that time. So they were hurting for gas, especially power vehicles.

So they didn't know what they're going to be able to get these people over the border in time. And so their guards go outside, lock them in and try to track track supplies down for themselves. And so they're gonna spend the night at the school, and the group says, pastor Bonhoeffer, can we have a church service together?

And at first Bonhoeffer says, I will not do it because we have an atheist in our midst. And not because he's an atheist, but I want to make sure that he's comfortable with this, and the relative to Stalin was the atheist and the relative of Stalin says, no, that is fine. Go, have a church service. I'd be more than happy to sit and be in your midst through this. And so he starts to preach and then someone comes in and says, come with us. The SS found him. Down where he was, and they had just enough gas to go down to the village and get them back up to Flossenbürg concentration camp.

They stripped him of all of his clothing. They had a quick kangaroo court, military trial found him guilty, and then they hung him at Flossenbürg concentration camp and burnt him in a mass grave. And I think that the most beautiful thing out of all of this pain and suffering though, where his last words, it is recorded to the edge when he was facing the gallows.

He said these words. So this is the end for me, the beginning of life. And my goodness. All that man did, all that man suffered through for the faith or his personal convictions. And when he's faced with the end, he can do nothing but lean into the promise of the resurrection.

Barbara: I have a couple of sentences from a letter that he wrote on May 29th, 1944. And how can this still be relevant in our lives?

All of this is relevant, but especially this, that's why I picked this one letter. “God wants to be recognized in the midst of our lives, in life and not only in dying, in health and strength and not only in suffering, in action and not only in sin. God is the center of life and doesn't just turn up when we have unsolved problems to be solved.”

And that was really meaningful to me. How can we keep God in the center of our lives? Any thoughts Blake on is it easy to just call on God when you're like, God, God, I need help. How do we remember?

Blake:  we can lean into God's promise by leaning into the communities that we find ourselves in. Because we always say at the seminary that God works through creative means. One teacher here would take that further and say, there's no one that you can look at in this world that Christ does not love.

And that Christ has not died for. I think in community, we can lean into God's promises because we hear God's promises proclaimed in community. When we come gathered as a church, we hear the word of God preached and we receive the sacraments. If we are sacramental people and nowhere else have I found in this world can feed people spiritually at like a gathering of people around the word and sacrament can.

Barbara: And we've kind of done community by zoom or other online platforms to the best of our ability during this time of pandemic, which in some places is easing now, not everywhere, but absolutely. We really want to put out an encouraging word for community, especially community of faith for that spiritual journey that we're all on.

Yeah. Thank you. And I'm going to read part of a poem that I had mentioned briefly. I did a podcast episode last year about all the classes that I was taking one semester and I mentioned it and I thought, well, I can't read it because I'm probably going to try probably going to cry. But today I thought, well, I'm already on my way there.

So this poem is so powerful. I'm not going to read the whole thing for the sake of time, but would encourage anyone to look it up again, to talk about it, this was meaningful. Decades ago, and the content is still meaningful now in each of our lives in Bonhoeffer writes:

“Am I really what others say of me? Or am I only what I know of myself? Restless, yearning, sick, like a caged bird, struggling for life breath. As if I were being strangled, starving for colors, for flowers, for Birdsong, thirsting for kind words, human closeness, shaking with rage at power lust, and pettiest insult, tossed about, waiting for great things to happen.

Helplessly fearing for friends so far away. Too tired and empty to pray, to think, to work, weary and ready to take my leave of it all? Who am I? This one or the other? Am I this one today and tomorrow another? Am I both at once? Before others a hypocrite and in my own eyes a pitiful, whimpering weakling? Or is what remains in me like a defeated army, fleeing in disarray from victory already won?

Who am I? They mock me, these lonely questions of mine. Whoever I am, thou knowest  me; O God, I am thine!” 

Thoughts on that, Blake?

Blake: So many. He wrote that when he was in prison. Not only that it was prison towards the end of a war, bombing raids happened almost every night, and there would be times - the prison is in the city of Berlin, but it was on the outskirts of the city next to an industrial district.

So there'd be times where bombers would go over. and they would hit the prison instead of the factories. So not only is he suffering in prison, but he's also experiencing the impending doom of this might be the night I die.

And he writes this- I'm still trying to figure out how he mustered up the peace and the serenity to write this. And then I remember. Wait, it wasn't he who mustered up the peace and serenity. It was Christ who strengthened him to muster up the peace and serenity.

Barbara: I think it speaks to his willingness to be human and vulnerable. And it encourages me then in my own humanness. Luther coined the phrase, we're all saints and sinners.

And so we have this different aspects of ourselves, and usually we try to show the best side, but just that we all have these combinations of feelings and experiences inside of us and how people perceive us and how we want to be perceived.

Blake: indeed we do. And they come out elegantly in his writings, especially in letters and papers from prison. And there's some in there where we're never going to know the true feelings about because when he wrote Letters and Papers from Prison, he would lie at times to not tip off the sensors as to what's going on really. And too, he would lie at times because he didn't want his parents to know the suffering that he was going through.

Barbara: some of the academic writing was way over my head. I mean, he was just brilliant. And some of it I could really understand and some of it I'm like, what does this mean?

Blake: I definitely recommend Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And I recommend this version that I have here. This is the reader's edition and it comes with an awesome foreword to the book and it lays out what was going on in his world. Why did he write this? And what is it useful for today? And then it has some guiding questions in the back for you to study along with.

If you're looking for a more in depth, theological read, but still palatable, I would recommend Discipleship. It takes the sermon on the Mount from the gospel of Matthew and the beatitudes and it frames it in a missional frame. So he looks at the beatitudes as a way for us to live by. So that is another great one.

If you are looking to learn about his life and if you want the definitive work. This is a biography written by Eberhard Bethge. His best friend. After the war, Bethge was the one that collected all of Bonhoeffer's writings and put together writings and papers. He took all of his unfinished writings and published Bonhoeffer's ethics.

And then he came out with this biography and this is the definitive biography of his life. What better biographer to have, than your best friend?

Barbara: we've talked about some thorny ethical issues and barely even scratch the surface today when it comes to war, assassination of a dictator. And even the Bible verses could be way more dug into in terms of government and police and citizenship.

And what does that mean and how are we both good citizens as well as then? What do we expect of the government and police, prison ministry? There's so many more things to talk about.

Blake: read Bonhoeffer as much as you can. He'll give you a lens into theology that is refreshing. It is a lens that is lived amongst people. And Bonhoeffer is not only a theologian of the head but also a theologian of the heart. And he understands how important it is to connect both of those together and live with them in community.

Barbara: I don't mind admitting, even though it's embarrassing, I often thought, well, what does this history have to do with our lives today? Why is this important? And I don't think that anymore- there's incredible relevancy in the writings and beliefs and prayers that we've been talking about today.

Well, thank you so much for your time today, Blake.

Resources:

Romans 13:1-5

http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/who-was-db2.htm

The Bonhoeffer Reader, edited by Green and DeJonge

Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Reader’s Edition)

Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Dietrich Bonhoeffer: A Biography by Eberhard Bethge

 Letters and Papers from Prison by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Best of 2021

Barbara: Hi everyone. And welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

Today, I'm going to be taking a look at the most listened to episodes this year so far. I did the same thing at the end of December last year on the first 25 or so episodes that had been released. And I didn't get to talk about all of the most popular episodes because I had excerpts from some of the episodes and then ran out of time. So I still have a few episodes that had been very popular last year, along with some of the newer ones from this year. And we've got another 25 since then. So we'll see how many we get to today. I'm going to just shuffle them up, cause I printed off some quotes to share with you as well as including some excerpts of recordings. So here will be a partial listing of the most popular episodes this year so far.

Barbara: In August of 2020, episode number 13 is about the book of Ruth. And that was recorded with Paula who taught me how to run a podcast because I did not know what I was doing. The thought of starting a podcast was frankly terrifying for me. And I thought it was really amazing that after I signed up for this class with Paula, she mentioned she has a master's from Yale divinity school.

And I thought, that's pretty amazing. What are the odds of that? And I have a quote attributed to Albert Einstein: coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous. So I think, if it's a coincidence, that's God. And then at some point during the podcasting class, Paula mentioned that her favorite book of the Bible is Ruth. Eventually I worked up the nerve to say, do you want to record an episode with me about the book of Ruth? And she said, yes.

Paula: God is trying to reach out to us in whatever way God knows we're gonna respond to. So whether that's a burning Bush and we notice it and we're like, what's going on here? Or it's maybe something a little more subtle, but I feel like God keeps reaching out to the people in the old Testament and the us now and saying, Hey, I see you. I know you. And I want to have a relationship with you.

I don't want you to just follow the laws or the rules that I'm laying down. Sure. I'll tell you what it means to be a good, you know, air quotes, good person, and to be in relationship and to follow the, commandments and the commitment. But I want to see it, like, I want to feel this relationship with you.

And so I feel like Ruth's saying this to Naomi is also this really interesting, nuanced and layered way of saying to the reader, this is what a relationship, a loving relationship with someone looks like, yes, you get that. We're going to all follow kind of the same rules as a society, but you also get this heart level thing that comes out.

And that's what I feel like is modeling the way the God hopes we will react to God.

Barbara: Imagine if we said to God, God don't force me to leave you. God, don't make me go home. Where you go. I go, that just blows my mind.

Paula: Yeah. Goosebumps.

Barbara:  one of the most popular episodes has actually been the very first one, not the intro that I recorded on why am I starting a podcast? But the first guest that I interviewed, Melissa. And we talked about fear on June 15th, 2020, technically it's episode two.

Melissa: I think we do hold onto fear. I've found that fear is kind of comforting, because we know it, it's something we can expect.

We can expect to be afraid of something. And the releasing of it is hard because when you release it, You're going into another unknown. Living in fear is something that's easy for us to do because it's familiar. We're always afraid of something. We're afraid of success. We're afraid of failure. We fear what's to come, but if we own it, we can move forward.

God is always there. the question is where is our faith and that fear do we turn to God in that time of fear? God didn't create the feared. God did not put that in our lives.

it's there. things happen and how we react to it is I think the biggest difference in our fear, we can climb up. We can look inside, we can look to earthly things in order to try to quell that fear, or we can look to God and we can. Pray about it. We can ask about it. We can look for guidance.

We can look to the Bible. We can look to others who are more knowledgeable in our faith journey than we are. God doesn't go away. got his there. But do we acknowledge that? And do we do our part in. Interning, interesting in putting our faith into action.

Barbara:  episode number 38 was released in March of this year. And I talked with Joanne about what it's like in a Lutheran church that has a praise band, which is something that some Lutheran churches may have, but by and large, Most people think about Lutheran churches as having organ music or singing hymns out of a hymnal and then more non-denominational or mega churches having praise bands.

One thing that I noticed and that I really enjoyed Joanne, is that prayer time during the service that we're talking about right now included very soft and gentle background music. I feel like music is a language and some people listen to it and really treasure it. And maybe some people feel like they can speak that language, or it goes deep into our body.  [audio recording music here].

Joanne: I have this little plaque in my piano studio that says, God gave us music that we might pray without words.

Barbara: So if you would like to learn more about how a small congregation can get a praise band started and what that might look like during the worship service, take a listen to episode number 38. In March of 2021 with Joanne from Massachusetts.

All right, in August of last year in episode number 14, I talked with my friend, John about pop culture, and this one includes examples of books and some movies,

So. If you would like to hear a little bit more about our conversation regarding Harry Potter and CS Lewis and Star Wars, and JRR Tolkien, check out number 14.

John: the environment that I grew up in C S Lewis was worshipped almost. And as an adult, as I began to study theology, I began to say, you know, if some of the people I grew up with really read CS Lewis, they would not be a fan of him.

he was very much a believer that, And the idea that God does not like set apart a certain people as like the ins and the outs. He talked about this idea that God speaks to people in the language that is best suited for them. I think that the main thing was Narnia. There is both a religious objection to it.

And a secular objection to there has been controversy in public schools, with the Narnia books, because there are such strong Christian themes in there and the Christian complaint that. I have heard is, and I think you brought this up when we first began to talk about it is this depiction of Jesus as Azlan.

So as Aslan is depicted as this lion. Right. So it's kind of that, victorious, just not Christ as the lamb, the same lamb that John, the Baptist appointed to. And yet the interesting thing is that the symbol of Judah, which was the area of Palestine, that Jesus is from, and that was his ancestry is Alliant.

And Lewis was drawing upon that.

Part of the genius of what George Lucas did in Star Wars, in creating the idea of the concept of before it is, It's a spiritual concept, but it is so simple that people can understand it. And yet you can come from a religious background, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, any faith- are you going to have no faith at all, but still have a value system.

And you still see that reality in there and regarding redemption, that is very much present. And also, I would say in Star Wars where you have this, very much aligned between good and evil, but also you have this central arch that it is never too late to stop and look at what you have done and realized I was wrong.

And with that comes forgiveness and redemption. And there's this beautiful scene, in return of the Jedi, which is the last film, the original, or showed you where Luke Skywalker is fighting his father Darth Vader, and the emperor is just towering them on. And Luke eventually stamps and he viciously attacks his father with the intent of killing them, even cutting off his hand, just as his father had cut off his hand.

But then Luke realizes what he has done. And as the emperor is continuing to, you know, Paul at him, he throws his lights several way and says never, I will never turn to the dark side. You cannot win. And it's a very similar thing in Harry Potter where, in the order of the Phoenix, where he has taken possession of Harry and he's mocking him and saying so weak, so powerless and Harry responds.

You're the weak one that you will never know what love or friendship is. And I feel sorry for you. And how similar is that? To the words of Luther in a mighty fortress is our God the body. They may kill God's truth. Abide is still, and the kingdom is forever

Barbara: step. I have episode number 36 that was aired on February 14th of this year. And that was the first of a two-part series on Islam. I invited my professor for Wartburg theological seminary. Her name is Gülsüm Küçüksarı 

and we spoke about. Both her personal experiences as growing up Muslim in different parts of the world, as well as her experiences as a faculty member who has taught intro to Islam to many different students over the years, and her experiences as.

Someone trying to explain really cultural similarities among Abrahamic, faiths, and other cultural aspects, such as modesty codes.

One topic that is important to me is honoring the rights of women. I learned during this class and perspectives on this theme, when it comes to Islam, glutes, what are a few examples of why history is important when considering the rights and treatment of women around the world today and not only women who are Muslim?

Gülsüm: Unfortunately, we only look at our current contexts to understand what is currently taking place, which cannot really tell us the entire story of the people - in the case of Muslims.

They had a story of 1400 years and since they are also being diverse even today, and there's 2 billion Muslims around the world, scattered around Africa, the far East, middle East, like Bosnia in the Western hemisphere as well.

So how come you didn't put all 1400 years of history and all these people, how can we put all these people into one certain box? And how can we say that this is the story of all Muslim people?

You cannot say that about any, any people? So the story of the oppressed women of Afghanistan, which is a fact, which is not deniable, but this is not the entire story of Afghanistan. I have a very close Afghan friend. She is very passionate about change for her country.

And we talk about these issues together with her. She wants to talk about what Taliban has done, how he destroyed, the country,

But on the other hand, she does not like a country to be represented by Taliban. Is it all Afghans are Taliban-like, or all Afghan women are oppressed? All Afghans are lazy? They don't want change and this and that. So this is not the story of all Afghan women.

 So we should be misled if we look at it that way, right. Now when we look at the media, this is what we see- the media likes to zoom in and take that picture to us and show it to us repetitively so that we are misled. And then because media actually goes somewhere with that, they had their own agenda and they go somewhere with that and they do it very well.

And so I don't know if you're familiar with this female African author about Single story approach. and what is that? So in our Western dominated and Eurocentric media, we have many stories of Americans or the western people.

Like we have good Americans, bad Americans, like serial killer or, savior. We have all sorts of Americans. Yeah. But and sometimes even more so towards like good whites, right. Sometimes yes. But then you look at the third world, she says that we have a single story. Like Africa, she says we have

that big prejudice against Africa. It's a huge continent, but is it like a village and the common denominator we can summarize like everything about it as policy you're poor, right? Yeah. But she is an African woman, mum. She doesn't like that. So we put all Africans into one box and sometimes we get so swamped in that And it almost becomes a racist approach.  A very recent example.

Can we define the, all Americans with the actions of the recent attackers in the Capitol building, right. I'm sure you present all America is only a part of a bigger story, right. 

So I don't want to deny the fact that women, some Muslim women are denied and not given particular rights in places like Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, but it is definitely because of the political regimes in those countries and their abuse of power. And there's abuse of religion in those places.

And there's a lot of other human rights in those countries. Like we know that a lot of journalists are in prison in countries. All sorts of human rights abuses in those countries. So those places where we see Sheria in place this is what we see all this is because of the Sheria that they are suffering from.

This is a Spoiled version of Sheria. This is a modern version. This is, this is kind of a colonized version of Sherea. It is not what Sheria is about. It has a flexible nature , it is changeable. So this is why it is important to look back at history because history has different examples.

So that we can actually have a better appreciation of today is a better comparison. And we should understand that the world has a bigger history than what we have today. Right? So we can't just judge all Christians know by looking at modern America, right. By looking at, , 15th century, the crusaders.

 Yeah. Great example. So the same today, the Muslim world is suffering from still suffering from colonization. The trauma of that, they are still suffering from that. So we have to understand the Muslim psyche under the lights of that. Otherwise we will not understand. It is not to justify the violence that they turn to, but it is to make sense of why this is happening.

It's not because they are born violent. Because this is very racist actually, when we actually think of people, oh, they're this way, because, because this is how they are.

Barbara: Next I have for you an episode from July of 2020 episode number nine, that was recorded with another faculty member at Wartburg theological seminary named may Persaud. And we talked about Bible translations.

May: There are basically three different approaches to translation. There's the verbal approach where the translators drive to make the English be exactly following the ancient Greek or the ancient Hebrew. So it's kind of a word for word. Translation now  most versions are not, strictly verbal.

Cool. So the verbal would be on one end of the spectrum.

And then in the middle is, an approach to translation called dynamic. This seeks to understand what's going on and to reproduce the ancient thoughts and ideas in modern equivalency. So examples of this would be the NRSV, the RSV, the NIV. And  the Jerusalem Bible, which was mandated by the Catholic church

So they're trying to stay with the words. And yet they're trying to not be just tied word for word. They're a little looser. It's dynamic. And then the final kind of translation approach is called paraphrase where the, translators read the ancient texts. They think about, you know, what is going on? How can we talk about, about it?

And then in their own language they just kind of make a paraphrase and examples of this would be the living Bible and the message. And there are many other examples too.

Barbara: Do you have a moment made to  take a look with at Matthew six 25, because I'm someone who worries and if there's some wisdom to be had about worrying or not worrying.

Yes. I have it. I have it at hand in the NIV, and I know that you'll have some insights into different versions, but Matthew chapter six verse 25 says, therefore, I tell you do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink or about your body. What you will wear is not life more than food and the body more than clothes.

May: Well, the interesting thing about this  is that the versions are going to agree on this. They all say, do not worry. And this is where Mae Perseid when she teaches wishes that she  could get a team together and work on, an alternative reading of this.

Barbara: So let's hear it. Yes.

May: The do not worry, worry, grammatically.

can be translated either. Do not worry or stop worrying. Jesus is speaking to those who've come in and he's basically saying to them, I know you're worried, so let's just cut it out to stop worrying. Therefore, I tell you, stop worrying about your life, what you will eat, or what you will drink or about your body, what you will wear. So he's stopping what is already going on in their hearts and minds.

And then after verse 25, he talks about the birds and he talks about how the father feeds even the birds and the lilies of the Valley. And he goes on I'm 31. Don't worry about what you'll eat or what you'll drink. He's addressing the fact that he knows that they've been worrying about these things.

And then he says in verse 33, Strive first for the kingdom of God and God's righteousness and all these things will be given to you. So the bottom line is to lean into God. And then in verse 34, what does Jesus say? The text says, so do not worry about tomorrow. All of the translations agree with that, and that is a possible translation, but there's another possible.

And that is so don't even begin to worry. Which implies that the worrying hasn't started.  If I were working on this as a new version, I think I would imply Jesus stops the worry of the people who come. He recenters them in God and God's kingdom and what God does leaning into the fact that God will provide in this COVID time, God will provide.

And then he says, so don't even get started as if it never was. So don't even get started. I think that that. And important way to look at this text. I don't think, do not worry and do not worry for me. I like to hear a little bit more. I like to hear Jesus say, don't even get started or to start by saying stop doing it.

Barbara: Next up. And these are not in order because I don't usually have three faculty members in a row recording podcast episodes with me. So you could hear a little bit of shuffling in the background. The next one that I wanted to tell you about though today of the most listened to episodes is with a faculty member named Jay Alanis.

It's episode, number 16 that aired on September 13th of 2020, and many of these episodes have video on. YouTube. So some of the ones that I have mentioned to you up until now, don't have a specific video content. It's just the recording. That's on YouTube. So I don't need to necessarily send you there for those, but this particular one I wanted to especially invite you.

If you've got time to go to YouTube, I'll put it on the podcast website also, which is 40 minutes of faith.com so that you can get to that link really easily. Jay had created a presentation for us with some maps and some quotes and some artwork. Which of course you can just listen to it as a regular podcast too.

In Sunday school, I thought, okay, Jesus was born and then he grew up in Nazareth, but there's something really important that happens between the birth and Nazareth as it relates to our conversation today.

And I'm going to read. Matthew chapter two, verse 14, and the new revised standard version says this. Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night and went to Egypt. So we've got a visual here for folks on YouTube, an arrow leading from Bethlehem to Egypt, and then other arrows leading out of Egypt and to Nazareth.

So keep reading in Matthew and you'll get more of the story. And Jay, you have some parallels to tell us about modern day flights.

Jay: Yes indeed. In fact, I have traveled this route. several years ago, I traveled to Israel. I travel from there to Cairo.

So I was able to see firsthand just how, intense that desert is. And so I could only imagine the Holy family having to make that Trek across the desert. to get to Alexandria. I equate that experience and that a physical desert S something similar to the Sonoran desert in Northern Mexico, which is the deadliest desert, which migrants cross, through to get to the U S us Mexico border in Arizona.

It's not for nothing that many people refugees die in that day. Dessert and books have been written about that. They die in the, in the heat of the desert, trying to cross into a place of refuge. I want to point out from this text is that Matthew relates the story of the Holy family who flee to Egypt.

To escape, the persecution of Herod yes, many today, Joseph, Mary and Jesus become political refugees in the empire of their day. They flee to escape the death squads that Herod ordered against the innocent. And Jesus  was the undocumented child of his day and a homeless displaced migrant, like his family, many flee the death squads of their native countries.

And arrive at our Southern borders seeking asylum and refuge. And so I asked church, how shall we receive those who bring Jesus with them? And so I offer the prayer merciful, God help us to give shelter to the displaced, homeless at our borders and to advocate for just and humane treatment of our global neighbors.

Jesus' identity is rooted in his culture. As a Galilean Jew, he will speak in the dialect of his community. He will learn to speak Aramaic and read the Torah in Hebrew. He will be influenced by the Hellenistic culture of the region, the crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa, then the border States of the U S we call the spoken language, Spanglish or text mix, a mixture of English and Spanish, and many who traveled to our borders, bring their accents with them.

And are identified as foreigner in time. They will adopt the dialect of the region in their effort to survive in a new country. And so how should we receive them Lauren? And give me your accent of peace and reconciliation with all people that all might find refuge and sanctuary. as my neighbors. And so I like to point out that language is a tool of empowerment and all cultures are defined by their linguistic heritage.

And we should not fear languages. We do not understand, but hear them is an opportunity to learn about the worldview of others who come here. In other words, language in today's world is politicized and, and used against. people who have a different accent than our own.

And no one in on earth, is accent less. We all come from a certain place. We all have an accent and we are all, people of God. And so language should be used as is as a gift, and not as a tool to, for us others.

Barbara: Next I have for you a podcast episode that I recorded with my friend, Anita, from Massachusetts about prayer shawls. This is number 31 released on January 9th of 2021.

So this is another episode where I would encourage you if you've got time, watch it on YouTube. And if not, just listen to it, I'll have all of that on the podcast website for you, so that you can see some examples of the different prayer shawls that this particular church ministry has created.

Anita: we pray over the shawls. We meet once a month here at grace, the King. So people bring their work. And we put our work in the middle of us and we all put our hands on it and pray over the shawls that we're working on. Sometimes people know who the shawl is for, and maybe know who the shawl is core.

It is easier to pray for that person, but sometimes you pray with your pattern

Barbara: work,

Anita: a repeat of three stitches. You could pray in the name of the father, son and Holy ghost, or you could put a Bible verse to your pattern. So it depends sometimes you know, who you're making the shawl for. And sometimes you do not.

Those don't have to be knitted or crocheted. They can be sewn. They can be fleeced. That is tied. I mean, you can make your Shaw in any number of ways.

They can be small. They can be big. They can be very small that they just fit in somebody's pocket- no say that the person doesn't want to wear a shawl all the time, but they'd like something in their pocket to remind them. That's

Barbara: amazing. I love that. I had never heard that

Anita: before. Yes. They're called pocket shawls and there are pocket.

Yeah.

Shawls can come in any shape or size. This one happens to be a triangle and it can be worn like the one I have with like a collar or it can be worn over the shoulder.

So there's lots of ways to wear a shawl and lots of shapes.

this one would be for a new baby and it would be great for a baptismal Shaw because it's white. Sometimes we use the church, your colors, or the shells

Barbara: I have a different two-part episode to let you know about, and that is on November. 24th of 2020 in episode number 15, that's part two of an episode series that I recorded with Jennifer about racism and adoption.

Jennifer: I think one angle of fear is white. People are afraid if they admit they have. Biases or have done racist things. they're admitting that they are a horrible person, so it's easier to just completely deny the entire topic and just push it away and shame anybody who is talking about it. in fact, one of the ways this fear manifest is by saying, well, If you would just stop talking about it, it would go away.

And as we all know, someone with cancer or, mental illness or, a broken bone, you don't just stop talking about it to make it go away. You have to actually address it. Okay. I wonder if that's

Barbara: another situation of privilege in my privilege, I can ignore it and my life won't be too badly affected. Okay.

But then I'm ignoring the people who are very much effected by

Jennifer: it.  And so the fear comes from admitting that we may have done, something wrong, thoughts, something wrong, or we might be wrong. And honestly, that's not what this whole journey is about. This whole journey is about recognizing, that all people.

We're created in the image of God and not all people are treated as such. so I think that's one fear. And then I don't know exactly which population of people has this fear, but, a lot of people fear that they're going to have to, share their wealth or, Yeah.

like give up half of their belongings so that other people can have their stuff. And I think that's been a prevalent message And I think that, if you look at scripture,

Barbara: we're called to give Jesus, say to the rich man. That's right. What

Jennifer: did he say to the rich man?

 Barbara: Here's what happened in the book of Matthew chapter 19 verses 16 to 22, from the message version, a man stopped Jesus and asked teacher. What good things must I do to get eternal life? Jesus said, why do you question me about what's good. God is the one who is good. If you want to enter the life of God, just do it.

He tells you the man asked what in particular, Jesus said, don't murder. Don't commit adultery. Don't steal. Don't lie. Honor, your father and mother, and love your neighbor. As you do yourself. The young man said I've done all that. What's left. If you want to give it all, you've got Jesus replied. Go sell your possessions, give everything to the poor.

All your wealth will then be in heaven. Then come follow me. This was the last thing the young man expected to hear. And so crestfallen, he walked away. He was holding on tight to a lot of things and he couldn't bear to let it go. Okay.

Jennifer: Yeah. So I think we have a fear of loss. Sure. And I have read that I had read from some black individuals who speak to the matter white people have a fear of a loss of their status in this culture , and what that tells me is that white people do know that there's a privilege to being white.

So. We have the privilege of pretending we don't have a privilege.

Barbara: What's that.

To let you know about another popular episode that was recorded in January of 2021. And that is episode number 32 about  preparing to go on a pilgrimage to Israel with my friend Lindsay. And the reason that we recorded this in addition to another episode with my friend, Teresa, about actually being in Israel is because.

It was a very meaningful process to actually prepare for this particular pilgrimage.

Lindsay: at the time of the trip, I was co-facilitating The Rock, the Road and the Rabbi by Kathy Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel. it really was an amazing study. I just felt like.

It opened my eyes to a part of the Bible that I didn't even know before, like an onion that kept revealing another layer and stories that I've heard a hundred times or jumping off the page at me. When viewed through a different lens, like the Jewish lens I could see it completely differently than I had before.

And that was really eye-opening and amazing to me. Being in Israel was like history coming to life.

I am sitting on the Mount of Beatitudes. After having just gone sailing on the sea of Galilee, it was a beautiful, amazing experience. I feel Jesus in this place and it is so peaceful through the beatitudes. Jesus was telling us a better place and way to live, which set of rules are governing my life, the world or God's.

What are you worrying about? Let go and know that he is God. 

Spring 2021 Bible studies

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

Today I'm going to be talking about four Bible studies that I've participated in this spring with Bible verses throughout and a few key messages.

The first study that I participated in was sponsored by the Protestant women of the chapel, which is the military affiliated Bible study group here in upstate New York. And it was about the book of Hebrews. The title of the study was Better and the author was Jen Wilkin. I've done a number of different studies written by this same author over the years and have really enjoyed them.

They're very detailed and you learn a lot of new information about the Bible and obviously that particular passage. I've done her studies on first Peter and the sermon on the Mount. So in that study, I learned from the author a great deal about Hebrews. And I don't want to just spend the whole time of this podcast telling you all the details about these fantastic studies because they're published by another author. So I want to give them credit and highlight a few things for you, but also to do my own research and show my own work.

So I'm not just reading pages from this study that is available for purchase. I have a Lutheran study Bible, and that includes an explanation before each book in the Bible with a little bit of historical information and context and highlighting some details. So according to my Lutheran study Bible, the King James version of the Bible attributes the book of Hebrews to the author Paul and contemporary theologians and scholars no longer believe that to be the case. However, the exact author is also not known. Paul typically introduces himself at the beginning of the letters or books that he wrote and does not in this case. And there's a few other clues as to why they think it's not written by Paul.

But what was really neat is that there was a clear connection between many scriptures from the old Testament that are quoted in Hebrews. And at the same time that I was a student in this study, I was facilitating a different study, the title of which is Discerning the Voice of God, written by Priscilla Shirer.

The Discerning the Voice of God study also referenced numerous times back to the old Testament or the Hebrew scripture as it is also called. And I was also listening to the Bible through a year on an app. And a couple of previous episodes have talked about there's a number of either reading plans or apps for listening to the Bible.

And what I really appreciated this time around, I've read the Bible before, is that it's easy for my eyes to glaze over. I'm a little bit embarrassed to admit that, but it's the truth. And the reason I say that is that for me listening didn't allow me to glaze over. So for example, the measurements of the building of the temple were very, very detailed and specific.

Also different rules about sacrifices and the descendants and the tribes and things like that. But it was absolutely fascinating to me, how much I learned by listening to that. And different types of plans might include up to four different parts of the Bible in one lesson. So it could be a passage from the old Testament. Usually a Psalm or part of a Psalm, a proverb or two or a chapter, depending on how long and the passage from the new Testament as well. And they're all designed a little bit differently. So it was amazing to me that as a student in one study and a facilitator of another study, and then just in my personal time, listening to the Bible, how they were all just so connected in that might seem obvious, but it was really neat to me.

Hebrews 12, one to three, from the message version. “Do you see what this means? All these pioneers who blazed the way all these veterans cheering us on. It means we'd better get on with it. Strip down, start running and never quit. No extra spiritual fat, no parasitic sins. Keep your eyes on Jesus, who both began and finished this race we’re in. Study how he did it because he never lost sight of where he was headed. That exhilarating finish. In and with God, he could put up with anything along the way, cross, shame, whatever. And now he's there in the place of honor, right alongside God. When you find yourself flagging in your faith, go over that story again, item by item, that long litany of hostility he plowed through that will shoot adrenaline into your souls.”

In addition to my study Bible, one of my school textbooks is called introducing the new Testament and the author is Mark Powell. One of the things pointed out in this textbook is that being human allows Christ to become a credible example for others who suffer testing and must persevere, Hebrews chapter 12 verses one through three. That particular quote is the textbook author’s interpretation to help us understand it a little bit better.

So I appreciate this message. From both the Bible, as well as the textbook, that Jesus is an example for people who are suffering and who are being tested and who must persevere. But my current class has also talked about the way people can sometimes misuse that verse because when we are mistreated, we are being encouraged to persevere. And we know that Jesus went through trials also and persevered. But what we're talking about in my current class is that sometimes people use that verse very selfishly to control other people or to mistreat other people. So for example, in this day and age, it's not okay to say, well, we have slaves and you're just going to have to suffer because Jesus suffered.

That's one example. And then there are other ways that we mistreat each other. So not to say,  it's okay to be mistreated because Jesus was mistreated. No, it's the other way around. So if circumstances have you being mistreated, then this offers a word of encouragement. It's not permission to say, well, go ahead and treat each other badly because everybody has to suffer.

Also, Jesus stands with those who suffer. That's another point that we were talking about in my current class. So if that can offer a consolation to anyone who is currently suffering, that Jesus understands suffering from a firsthand perspective.

So the Hebrews study and also the Discerning the Voice of God study talk about obedience to God. And I have a few questions for you that if you want to journal them or just think them over or talk them over with some folks, these questions are not specifically posed by the authors of any studies.

Because again, I don't want to just give away stuff for free. I mean, the gospel message certainly is our free gift, but if someone else has taken the time to research and write a study that's published, I'm not just going to read the whole study out loud. So I have some self-reflective questions that I asked myself and that maybe the other students in the class discussed among each other, as we were reflecting on these lessons.

First is, am I relying too much on myself? That's something that seems to be pretty popular these days in much of Western culture, as opposed to relying on God. And that's not to say that we should necessarily sit around and not do anything and just trust that God will provide. I guess it's a mixed message. We trust that God will provide and yet relying on ourselves exclusively is also not what we're called to do. Yes, we have jobs. We pay our rent. We buy groceries when possible. And also knowing that sometimes we really do need to rely on God to provide what it is that we need either spiritually or even physically. There's lots of stories about how we ended up helping each other and sort of serving as God's hands to help each other with our physical needs, as well as our spiritual needs.

One question that I got from the life coaching course that I took is, am I minding other people's business? In other words, God has called me to do certain things. And God has has called you to do certain things and they might not be the same thing. And that's okay. Am I trying to get you to do what it is that I'm called to do? Or are you trying to get me to do what it is that you're called to do? In other words, are we judging each other? When that's not really our place.

And there might be times when we are called to remind each other of different aspects of our faith or in our lives. But the next question is kind of related to that and that is, am I focusing on God? So am I just too busy worrying about everybody else? You know, sort of a busy body way instead of just fixing my eyes on Jesus, that's another verse.

Also the studies talked about developing spiritual maturity, for example, discernment, time in prayer. And this is not to measure how “good” you're being. So this is not to say, Oh, well, you know, you should be praying for X number of minutes per day or something like that. So that's called works righteousness.

So we're not talking about, you have to do X, Y, and Z in this certain manner. But it is encouraging prayer as a sign of spiritual maturity and discernment. That's kind of hard to try to figure out, well, what is the right thing? Sometimes it's seems very apparent, but we're going to be talking, coming up in a couple of future episodes about

ethical matters. And discernment is a complicated word because we've certainly got the 10 commandments and that's pretty clear, but I have also mentioned previously, even in Martin, Luther's large catechism, for example, there are not exceptions to the rule because I don't want to be disrespectful either, but the 10 commandments are a few sentences and then there's a lot more to it in terms of depth and nuance of doing the right thing instead of just not doing something.

So that's an example of discernment. And there's many other actually that could be its entire own episode as well. So I'll just keep going for now. But just to let you know that that was part of these studies as well as to talk about, well, what is spiritual maturity? And that's outlined pretty clearly in Hebrews and then discerning the voice of God is also something that comes with spiritual maturity as well.

And another question that one of the students in one of these classes asked is does God call us to do things differently than how we've done them in the past? And I would say by and large, we said, yes, there are some things that are constant over the years, but sometimes things change. Our world changes, situations change, and we don't always have to do things the way they've been done.

If it's just about tradition or formality,

I wanted to read to you a passage from second Corinthians chapter four verses 16 to 18. And that is something that was referenced in one of the studies that I have so many different passages underlined and highlighted in some, some of my Bibles have space. I write in the margins. Either notes or when we talked about this particular passage.

So it's, it's nice for this one for second Corinthians chapter four, verses 16 to 18. I have my message version here. And I wrote in the margin February, 2019, and I was living in Germany at the time. So this was included in whatever study I was in at the time or a retreat or something like that.

Here are the verses. So we're not giving up. How could we, even though on the outside it often looks like things are falling apart on us, on the inside, where God is making new life. Not a day goes by without his unfolding grace. These hard times are small potatoes compared to the coming good times.

The lavish celebration prepared for us. There's far more here than meets the eye. The things we see now are here today, gone tomorrow. But the things we can't see now will last forever. Yeah.

So that could be one example of discernment and spiritual maturity to know that. You know? Yeah, we, we are focused on life here on earth, but there are other priorities in the grand scheme of things.

One thing that I really enjoyed about the discerning, the voice of God study is that the participants are online and they are actually a group of folks who I met when I was living in Germany. And we were in Bible studies together over there. I lived in two different locations and since then, many of us are back in the United States and, or have even moved on

to the second next place after Germany. And we decided to get together and do a study. And when we look back, I met some of those folks in 2015. So we've been praying for each other for going on six years now, which is pretty amazing. Many of you may have been praying with other folks for far longer than that, but it's neat that across all this geographical space.

We're back together now online and whenever new studies come up, I'll be announcing those on the podcast, Facebook page, as well as in the newsletter. So if you're interested in hearing that information, either check out the 40 minutes of faith, Facebook page, or the 40 minutes of fame.com website has a newsletter sign up at the bottom of the page.

Another study that I was a student in is called. Sure. In times of disruption, it's led by sister, Sarah Cola's in Dubuque, Iowa. And although the pandemic has certainly proven to be tragic and a hardship for many, many people, in some small way for some people there have been blessings. So the example of this for me is that that particular study met in person before the COVID restrictions took place.

And then it went online. So even though I'm halfway across the country from Dubuque, I can participate online. And it's been a really wonderful study.

Again, to the point of not wanting to just repeat everything that the instructor says. I have another textbook called a short introduction to the Hebrew Bible by John Collins.

 Even though the study itself has gone through numerous books of the Bible. Since I joined about a year ago, I wanted to highlight first Samuel and the textbook talks about the song of Hannah, which is in first Samuel chapter two. That that's the model for Mary song of Thanksgiving in the new Testament, in the gospel of Luke, the first chapter verses 46 to 55, which is known as the Magnificant in it.

God raises the lowly and brings down the mighty. The message version says, God rekindles burned out lives with fresh hope. So from the Dubuque study, I learned that in first Samuel chapter one, Hannah is crying and praying so hard that she was accused of being drunk, which I can, well, imagine many churches have very structured prayers, often you're reading preprinted prayers, but in other churches that I've been to that prayer can really get fervent

and loud and powerful and just pleading. So one of the questions that the instructor asked the group for consideration is what causes misunderstanding. And then all the participants just have a chance to kind of talk about it. It doesn't necessarily mean that we are misunderstood when we're praying out loud.

Someone thinks that we're drunk, but just as a way to have kind of more insight into our lives and in the world. And it could be in a faith-based setting or not necessarily. And yeah, interestingly enough, again, this is so cool how it keeps happening. So that's why I'm presenting a few different studies here with you right now.

Remember a few minutes ago, I said I was facilitating a study, discerning the voice of God. Well guess what book of the Bible is in that study? Also, you got at first Samuel. In chapter three, verses one to 10. So here we have a new question. How do we recognize God's voice?

Because God was calling Samuel and Samuel thought that it was Eli. It was another person nearby and. After a while I figured out that it was God, but at first, he just said, no, I didn't call you, go back to bed. So this is a great illustration of how do we even know? And it might not be that we're hearing God's voice in our ear, but even within our spirit, how do we recognize it?

So I wanted to, to read for you from the book of Romans chapter 12, verses one to two.

And I have both pages of this in my Bible, just highlighted and lots and lots of notes from different times. So here's Romans chapter 12 verses one to two in the message. So here's what I want you to do. God helping you. Take your everyday ordinary life, your sleeping, eating, going to work and walking around life and place it before God as an offering.

As we're talking about that. I have also another verse because I'm in the planning stages with a future guest speaker for an upcoming episode that is going to talk about some issues that might be hard to talk about for some folks. And that's okay. We're still going to talk about it, but I would like to read to you.

From the book of Colossians chapter three, verse 15 in the message.

Let the peace of Christ keep you in tune with each other in step with each other, none of this going off and doing your own thing and cultivate thankfulness. Let the word of Christ the message. Have the run of the house. Give it plenty of room in your lives. One of my friends from Bible study had said, do we put Jesus in the attic and just call on him when we need him?

And that reminded me with this, with this particular interpretation,

let the word of Christ have the run of the house. Give it plenty of room in your lives. And many of the studies that I participate in ask participants to paraphrase a passage in a way that's meaningful to them, or to summarize it, to just highlight certain points that sort of jump out to us in what I wrote

in my particular study guide was do the hard work of getting along with each other. Because sometimes it's not easy to get along with each other. I would love to think that I'm right a hundred percent of the time, but in fact, I'm a hundred percent certain that I'm not right all the time. And maybe I'm right

some of the time. I can live with that, but it's easier for me to judge other people based on how right I think I am. So I understood this passage to really be inviting us, to be aware of how easy it is to judge and to get along with each other means that I might not be right all the time. Even if I think I am or someone else might be right, or what if God is right

and it doesn't matter if I'm right or the other person is right. How can we extend that love in less of a judgmental way?

And of course I could spend weeks and weeks and weeks on each of these studies. So I know I'm sort of touching the surface and jumping from topic to topic. I was just really amazed at how they were tied together at different times, different weeks, different days.

The fourth study that I just wanted to briefly highlight that I'm facilitating, I'm not facilitating for studies, but I wanted to mention four studies today. And this one I'm facilitating the title of it is my neighbor is Muslim exploring the Muslim faith. And I became aware of this study back in the fall when I was enrolled in

the intro to Islam course that I had mentioned in a previous episode. And the author of one of the books that we had to read for that course, co-wrote this curriculum and it's published by Lutheran social services of Minnesota. I can have that link for you on the website. The study is free and available to anyone online. And I proposed to lead this study

as a way of just becoming aware of some of the similarities, some of the differences, some of the unique aspects of different faiths and to, to be a good neighbor, even though I'm not aware that any of my current neighbors are Muslim, we've always talked about neighbor in a broader sense, not just the people who live on either side of me or even necessarily in my own town.

And how can faith communities be aware of and supportive of each other and maybe even work together. Imagine that. So this study has been well-received by the participants. There are seven chapters and it's the whole thing it's not a huge textbook. I actually did in a previous couple of episodes about the Muslim faith recommend a couple of different textbooks, but this particular study

is less than a hundred pages long and talks about the five pillars of Islam and charity and violence and misperceptions. Even different social expectations, like body language and dress and appearance. There are some vocabulary words. So this study has been fruitful in, in yielding interesting conversation.

There are questions at the end of each chapter that can be discussed in a group. So it's not a necessarily typical quote Christian Bible study about the Bible, but I find it really interesting to offer a group conversation about another one of the Abrahamic faiths really to just have this broader understanding of the world that we live in and the people who are our neighbors, and to be open, to understanding more than what we think we know.

So that has been really nice.

Okay. Finally, I would like to encourage people as much as possible to study or pray in community. I know that in some places churches are almost back to normal. Some places they are still, which whatever normal is. I meant in terms of meeting in person. And I know that some folks aren't necessarily associated with a faith community

in terms of going to weekly worship services or Bible study or anything like that. But that's one of the concepts that was talked about in the book of Hebrews. The first study that I had mentioned in this episode, and we really are encouraged to support each other in community. However, that might look.

So, whether it's walking through a particular set of doors for a worship service or a Bible study, or even participating online or praying together, it's really powerful to see god's good works over the years. Sometimes you can be praying for something for a long time. And we've talked about that in other episodes as well, that not all our prayers get answered right away or the way we want them to be answered.

And how can we be okay with that? And how can we have praise reports to say, wow, remember we've been praying for this for a really long time and there's some good news now, some progress. Or something has happened, that we were praying that we had hoped would happen, that we had been praying for God's will to be done and whatever the circumstance was for this particular person, that things are moving along in a direction that they had hoped for.

So to just encourage you to find a way of being with people who can not only support and encourage you also to perhaps hold you accountable. That's something that's been very helpful for me having Bible study homework and the studies that I facilitate, and most of the facilitators that I've met are really kind and generous and they say, you know, Hey, if life just happened and you didn't get to your homework, please participate

anyway. So we're offering to hold each other accountable. And also offering grace, which is a really nice balance to have as well. So I hope that this podcast community can be a source of connection for you. And also my prayer would be that you have people that you can talk to in some way with prayer requests.

Or with learning something new and having the chance to sort of talk things over with people. And even if we're like-minded, or even if we're not, like-minded just to have some different perspectives and some different understandings, we've talked in some of the studies, for example, in Hebrews, it talks about baptism and that's something that different faith communities do in different ways.

So we talked a little bit about that and not to say that, Oh, this one way is right and this one way is wrong or anything like that. But just to kind of acknowledge that a lot of us have grown up with different experiences around various church rituals or sacraments as some places call them. So.

Hoping that that can be a reality in your life in any way. That's possible. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for taking this time. And I would encourage you to spend time in your Bible. There are all kinds of free apps. Of course, there's different paid apps as well and websites, and just inviting you to take a look at some different translations.

I know I say that regularly, and interpretations that may possibly align more with different faiths. So example of my Lutheran study Bible will talk about Lutheran beliefs. So for example, in the book of Hebrews, there's a lot of law and there's a lot of gospel and that's a central Lutheran tenant to say, yes, we're being told, this is what we should do.

And yet there is also an emphasis on forgiveness and love, knowing that we can strive and strive and strive and not succeed. And that there is still hope that we are not under this punitive burden, if you will. So that's it for today. And I hope that you have a good rest of the day. Good rest of the week and looking forward to next time.

Resources:

Hebrews 12:1-3

2 Corinthians 4:16-18

1 Samuel 2, 3:1-10

Luke 1:46-55

Romans 12:1-2

Colossians 3:15

Better by Jen Wilkin

Discerning the Voice of God by Priscilla Shirer

https://shalomretreats.org

https://www.lssmn.org/services/refugees/my-neighbor-is-muslim

Introducing the New Testament by Mark Powell

A Short Introduction to the Hebrew Bible by John Collins

The Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg Fortress)

Faith during deployment

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God today's guest is Brian huddle, and we're going to be talking about faith during deployment. I met Brian in Germany and he's originally from Ohio and has lived in eight different places with assignments in California, Germany, Washington, Korea, North Dakota, Arkansas, and deployments to Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Qatar, and is currently living in upstate New York.

Brian was raised Methodist and has been a military member for 20 years. He retired last year and works as a defense contractor for the army. Brian is married to Stephanie and has three boys and three girls and his dreams are to own his own business someday to help people in the military, transition to the civilian world. Welcome Brian, how are things for you and your family?

Brian: doing very well. Thank you.

Barbara: Our Bible verse today is the 23rd Psalm. And I don't usually read from the King James version, but for today I selected the new King James version.

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Brian has Psalm 23 been meaningful to you in your life?

Brian: Oh, yes. Yes. I've recited this many, many times, especially pre deployment and maybe during the deployment. There was one in particular an instance heading into the uncertainty in Iraq. And there's so there's so much uncertainty to begin with.

And this particular verse is the one that would always repeat in my head just to make sure that I was prepared and it always gave me comfort as well. And I always liked the part “I will fear no evil”- take evil how you wish. And I think we all can relate that anything negative in a way could be considered evil, but that's kind of the way that I took it.

And it was teaching me to try to have more faith in God, in what I'm doing. And it just gave me a comfort.

Barbara: I suspect that a lot of people feel that way. And I also do want to lift up at the same time that we're looking about how we can gain comfort and confidence with God.

It's also important to me that we talk about the concept that we feel doubt and people in the Bible felt doubt. I just have one verse from Isaiah 49, verse 14 in the living Bible.

“Yet they say my Lord deserted us. He has forgotten us.”

So I'm not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but just to honor, even in the same day, we could feel different ways that we want to obviously encourage people in their faith. But at the same time to acknowledge, you're not alone. You're not a weirdo. You're not a bad person if you have doubts or fears. Does that kind of make sense?  

Brian: It's part of the human condition. We put as much faith into the Lord and into God as much as we can. And then when certain things may not go the way that we were expecting them to, we wonder, did God desert us? And of course, you gotta be careful cause maybe there's another reason that this one thing is not happening, or maybe since we're talking deployment, maybe this is an experience that I need to experience in this deployment and get through it and maybe it's a test of my own faith.

And I think even back then, a lot of them were having their faith tested multiple times over and over. But yeah, I like that one as well.

Barbara: as we're talking about the deployment cycles, it's okay to talk about faith and honoring that sometimes there can be doubt and fear in our lives, in addition to looking to God for comfort and sustenance. So some people think of deployment starting the day you leave the house, but for military families and military members, deployment starts way before you actually leave. I'm wondering how do faith and fear influence our thoughts and actions during the pre-deployment phase?

Brian: It can be very rough. I know my one year remote tour in Korea was almost devastating to all the kiddos. Just because of the time and duration. And I knew about this well in advance and then there's times where orders drop and you got to pack your bags and be out the door within 72 hours.

And there's no time for anyone to process any of it. And so having faith within that family dynamic helps families out big time because when those things happen, there's no delay. And as long as the family is very supportive in their faith is together in the family.

It's I think it's easier for them. I think when you have this really large amount of time prior to the deployment or a remote tour, that's when things start to be very rollercoaster and you'll have these highs and lows and having faith though together in the family definitely helped.

Barbara: I'm thinking that might look like praying together or any other examples of kind of faith within a family?

Brian: Oh, sure. I know we were getting into meditating altogether as well, and praying before dinner and making sure that we all could share our feelings and bring it out on the table.

So everybody understood where everybody was at with it. Cause it's a stressful, you don't even know what you're doing. And so for the member, they're focused on mission, mission, and they are also trying to be a husband, a wife, and a father, mother, and everyone's trying to balance that dynamic and things shift. And it's a very challenging period.

Barbara: I am so glad to hear you say, just being willing to talk about the real feelings, because it's a risk you're vulnerable to say I'm so afraid that something terrible could happen or even I'm really angry that this is happening, or it's not fair, or some people are actually okay. They don't even mind. What if you're kind of happy that this deployment is happening for various different reasons?

Brian: I've come across folks that are kinda like that, and actually some folks I've seen it all, where it brought people together because you're also trying to communicate back to home in different ways.

And one of my deployments in 2003, cell phone technology wasn't as high tech in everyone's hand. So that 15-minute phone call meant the world to both people and that helped to strengthen those family ties and bonds that you have.

 It's an interesting thing that happens for the military member and the military in general, when you're in it and you signed up for it, these are those things that I think our recruiter really can't tell you. And a lot of learning happens throughout whether you do four years and get out or you do 20 and get out there.

All that constant learning. And it's a very interesting dynamic compared to the rest of the civilian world that, somebody may have a difficult time with a person leaving for like two weeks versus a six-month deployment and come back, or nine months, or a year.

Barbara: military members and families are trying to not roll their eyes and say, don't feel sorry for yourself, because that's just not a nice thing to say right now. We're like two weeks? That's nothing.

I don't know if you had any in between locations, Brian. I know my husband had actually a lengthy training period between leaving home and getting to the deployed location. So it was kind of this in between could be stateside, could be overseas. Did you have any of that? And what was that like in terms of the faith journey?

Brian: One in particular I call it the Iraqistan tour because at the time I was a single parent and I had to put a lot of faith and trust into my ex-wife for my boys to stay with her. So for me, it wasn't so bad. Because we said our goodbyes around the first of the year. That way, the boys could go to school. They finished up half a year with me, and then they finished up the rest of it with her.

I think what's unfortunate is when folks get that short notice deployment and then they go and all of a sudden training switches up, or they're not very specific and the evolving tasks that's going on.

Yeah, even the military member could be very confused because orders change, mission changes. And the next thing you know, you thought you were going to a training for two weeks. It turns into two months, or you bounce around stateside, overseas, back home.

It can all be confusing, but when all of that happens, stay with like-minded people. Talking to chaplains, just talking to people of your own faith or belief system helps. And you gotta be quick with that. Because the worst thing that you want to do is kinda wallow in your own sadness or loneliness.

And that just makes all of this 10 times worse and causes issues and pain that not saying it could be completely avoided, but you want to get to those resources and people to talk to and begin that communication bond back. And that's a key aspect and the chaplains are always there to help.

I met quite a few chaplains over the years and some of them with their background and maybe their way of I'm here, if you need me and. Which is great, but then some of them though want to do that above and beyond.

And no matter what, I think it's those people you want to reach out to and find and talk to because the other ones have so many other units that they're juggling and they may not be dedicated to your specific unit and not available when you may need them, but by linking up with them and knowing who they are right off the bat, that's absolutely critical for folks to help with their faith.

Barbara: I've seen chaplains that have a whole bunch of different assignments that they're taking care of. And you may say, well, that's typical military people usually have more assignments to do than there are hours in the day, but when it comes to spiritual care, I have seen embedded with units are assigned to weekly worship services or Bible studies or whatever, and  they're really running around. So if it's someone who's either more available or less available to know at least who they are and then to access them whenever possible.

Brian: Exactly. Yep. Totally agree.

Barbara: Any stories from deployments, Brian?

Brian: you read the Bible and you always are curious on, what is it like over there? I had a Bible that had a map. Mesopotamia area, I was there, and it would always cross my mind, especially in Iraq where we're walking around and here- we are intense and carrying weapons and wearing the uniform. But yet some of these grounds, you just wonder, man, it was Jesus around like, like was I able, you know, was anybody in the Bible around this area?

And it would be amazing to go to some of the other countries that, like Jerusalem, just to see and be there and walk through there. But on the flip side, you see all the chaos that's going on over there as well. And so it's almost like they're these two opposites where it feels so odd to be in such a Holy place with people and doing these military styled missions.

And I was grateful for the opportunity to go there and awesome opportunity to actually be there and walk through those sands that you wonder, did someone else, so many years ago walked through there as well?

Barbara: And the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are specifically mentioned in Genesis. And when Jonah was swallowed by the whale, he was actually on the way to modern day Iraq. And he said, no, I don't want to go. And then that's a whole nother story. So absolutely you were in the places of our biblical heritage at the time.

I heard about baptisms also happening. I can't remember which of those rivers, but of American military members during their deployments that were baptized over there.

Brian: And I wanted to and wasn't able to do have that opportunity. Mainly because the battalion we fell under cause I'm air force and we were working for the army, they left early. And they gave us options on where to go either cut the tour short and go back home or continue.

So I ended up continuing and went over to Afghanistan. And so I wasn't able to actually do that, but I've heard other members that are able to get baptized in those rivers and I'm like, man, that's a pretty powerful message and definitely Something that you can talk about that a lot of people may not be able to experience.

Barbara: and stateside baptisms are a hundred percent valid, so we're not extra envious, but I agree with you that must have been pretty amazing. Even seeing a photo, made me get all teary and sentimental, but you got to go where they send you.

I know that a lot of people then also think, okay, so the deployment ends in your home and that's it. But to our experience, there's two or three different phases. You don't just go from one day, you're in a deployment. And then the next day you're home- there's a whole kind of pre homecoming phase to when the deployment is kind of wrapping up and the military members and their families are looking forward to that reunion. Any thoughts or experiences for you guys on that?

Brian: when you start looking at the clock and time's ticking down and your bags are all packed up or they're finally palleted and you're waiting on the aircraft, it's like, Oh, finally, we're getting there, we're getting there. And then, the long flight, and then you spend the night in a hotel and you finally make your way home.

If you haven't been discussing or having that solid foundation with your family, you walk into this interesting dynamic because for the past X amount of months, your spouse or significant other has been doing two duties and in that family dynamics. So I remember myself coming back from Korea and oh, so the kids were starting to do some of these things that I normally would do, and you have to stay very positive and keep open your feelings because the whole family had changed. And in a way, they got used to the military member being gone. And where I think a lot of conflict ends up happening is they're not discussing how they feel or how that dynamics changed.

You were just excited to get letters and emails and phone calls, just keeping in touch, but a lot of the day in and day out stuff you didn't really get to experience. So once you get integrated back into, Hey, we're a family again. The roles begin to maybe shift a little and it's during that shift is typically a lot of conflict can occur, but staying loving and kind as much as possible.

That always helps too, to make that transition a lot smoother. I know a lot of different family support centers we'll have integration dinners and they'll host these events to bring the people that just come back from a deployment and their families all come together and share and talk and be open.

I know they were doing that at my last duty assignment in Little Rock, and I thought that was a great thing. And it's something that I think they evolved along with the chaplains and some of the other folks to say, Hey, there's a lot of conflict and some of it is probably going to happen only because we're human and we're trying to get back into the way things were prior to the deployment, but we lose sight of that during it. And then when we come back, we expect things to be the same and things are a little different and yeah, those opportunities that I highly encourage folks if they are able to, try to engage in those type of events or stick with your church, community or other communities that you're involved with to openly share and discuss your feelings, to keep things very transparent. So people understand where you're coming from and try to avoid those unfortunate things as much as possible.

Barbara: just as a reminder, chaplains do have a hundred percent confidentiality. So that's another bonus in terms of just being honest about what's going on and yeah, they might say, Hey, I really think you could benefit from these other resources, if they're concerned about something, but that they're a great resource to turn to. And then these workshops, the post-deployment workshops as well as for guard and reserve members, there's yellow ribbon weekends, and then there's a whole bunch of other resources that are not faith related for military families as well.

So any other thoughts on the deployment wrapping up and adjustment to homecoming?

Brian: Some tips on the Pre deployment, during the deployment and post deployment, keeping a very, very positive outlook as much as possible and whatever your faith is. And I've even heard folks that find their faith during these during these deployments. One way or the other.

You've got to reach out  and be very open and honest on how you feel. The military is a very different job, period. You will be asked to do things that you may not want to do or may not understand, but there's always a mission and a mission focus and that military member is going to be dragged into that direction. And the more of a positive outlook you have on the whole situation, the better it's going to be for everyone.

Now for transitioning folks, my faith was tested a lot. I was deciding to retire and had my paperwork and it was approved. And then around the first of the year, 2020 is when I started really hitting the resume building and in jobs and networking and all that. And about 250 applications later, after living in a hotel for two and a half months or so, finally landed a job. It was rough. Not feeling worth it, feeling like you made a mistake.

I feel there's a few folks that kind of knew what they wanted to do so the transition was easy for them. And then some other folks may already have something lined up. Some folks aren't even working because maybe their rank and what their retirement or whatever. But my little percentage are the people that have had asked, what do I want to do?

Or what would I like to do? And it's scary if, if there's nothing lined up and you're trying to relocate, which that in itself is a challenge. But you have to have faith and try to keep the doubt as low as possible. It's very easy for folks to just give up. I tried, I'm done.

Barbara: 250 job applications. That's a lot.

Brian: Oh, I had more rejection letters. I mean, yes, we have the pandemic, but what I didn't understand was the amount of networking that I should have been doing and quality connections so that I could understand what the business world really looks like.

And a transition assistance program it's changed over the years. There's like a small percentage of people that do not know what they're walking into. And I was one of them not knowing what was going to come, but having faith absolutely helped. It was just this rollercoaster of emotion.

It was so difficult. Questioning yourself, doubting your worth, is this opportunity going to happen? Is this one, is this one? Sometimes I wouldn't hear anything. I'm absolutely blessed to be with the company that took a chance with me. And I enjoy the job. It's just I want to help folks a little bit more understand that you don't have to stay where you retire. You can relocate, you can do virtually whatever you want to do. You just have to narrow down what that one thing is. And through all of this, I've never read the Bible more, going back to a few passages, doing prayers.

And it's funny because Psalm 23 is one that I would recite not only during the deployment, but just when I was there at the Days Inn trying to figure out, am I doing the right thing? I'm so afraid.

Barbara: It didn't feel like green pastures.

Brian: No, not at all. Definitely a test of one's faith and the family as well. Well, because sometimes people can relocate for the job. We were relocating to find a job. And that takes a whole different dynamic on going to a new place, experiencing new things.

Barbara: you had some close calls too, in terms of jobs, because I remember thinking even in the first place that you and the family had so much faith moving halfway across the country to a place and you thought this is where this was the right place to be.

And then there's kind of a roller coaster ride. So I want to also just offer encouragement to folks if you're kind of in the middle of the rollercoaster ride. And you're like, I don't see a green pasture anywhere. There's other parts of the Bible that talk about that. This life is not always going to be easy. We're running a race, maybe going through some struggles. There are green pastures, but we might not every day of every year of our lives be in the middle of a green pasture.

Brian: Oh, exactly. But what I think it also does is it makes you more resilient to change, resilient in your own personal being in the way the family has come together.

A really good friend of mine had mentioned, if we wanted to get up and move and go do something else, guess what? We've already done it. And it's exciting to think Hey, we've already done this, so it can't be that bad. It's just that it felt so desperate and despairing because of all the unknowns, but you keep that faith up and you keep pushing forward.

You're going to find something. Something's going to stick. And then I learned also during this, that you get rejected. You know, nobody wants to be rejected. And for military members, perfection is key. You gotta be perfect and everything has to be sharp.

Barbara: I have not submitted anywhere near 250 applications. So I now have my goal in mind and that's not even a guarantee, either. The rejection doesn't mean that we are no good. It just means there's somebody else. And what's the next opportunity? Even if it's another “no”, but to keep going.  Like you said, we were brought up of like, I need to do everything just the very best that I can and what's wrong with me if they don't want me, but that's not what it's about.

Brian: And having faith in yourself is absolutely critical because when you do get those rejection letters in your life, I've really thought I was going to get this. It's more of the networking piece and it's who you know, and those personal relationships make the business world really go around.

We need to always be constantly communicating and networking with one another because that's our huge support network. And we miss a lot of our friends and some of our assignments where things were just fun and we had a great connection to everyone, but you get to build that again and having faith in that and building those relationships back up that's  key.

Barbara: I appreciate that. You already mentioned a couple of resources, but I just thought I would check in if there's any additional resources that we might want to mention to people. I do have a book that we haven't talked about anything along these lines, but I wanted to recommend a book called Downrange to Iraq and Back by Dr. Cantrell and Chuck Dean. And just wondering if you have any thoughts, Brian, on sort of faith and asking for help or faith in just getting the resources that you need, especially post deployment and transitioning out?

Brian: For those that are still in, always reach out to the chaplain and get some of their perspective on things. There's always the family support centers that are there to help you. And I would use them. I mean, they're getting paid there to try to help you get transition ready so that you can go out into the world. And I definitely used them and they had a lot of programs.

So making connections there, like once a month, as you begin to transition out, or even after you get back from your deployment, always reach back out because maybe they didn't advertise a class or maybe they had some free literature, books or something there that you can get access to. And really to help you. All of this is to help.

Barbara: It's not meant at all to say that we don't know what we're doing and also I don't want to put people in a box. I would never say, well, everybody who comes back is going to have all these problems. But what if we can't even see that there is either an issue or a resource that can help us that we're not even aware of or someone else might see something that we don't see?

Brian: Right. And the family will know that you're acting different. Some folks have a lot of PTSD things that happen. And the thing is, it's on both people in that family unit that recognize it to talk about it in a calm way. And then let's try to go to resources to help, and it's imperative.

Barbara: is getting the help easy is getting those appointments for your VA, how easy is that process?

Brian: when you transition out, and other branches do it a little different, and if you're already out and you didn't get it in connection with the VA, there's always a veteran service. Officer, VSO, they call them. They're basically your representative to the VA to try to get all the appointments moving just have faith and it'll happen eventually. It's frustrating and it's a little confusing but call them. One thing I've learned is you can make things happen.

And it's supposed to take two months buying a house as an example, two months to buy a house. Now I was able to push, get a house purchased within a month in upstate New York where everybody said the average was like two and a half to three months or something crazy like that. And I began to have this more determined mindset.

I said, no, I got a job. Let's buy this house. And same thing with the VA stuff. I started calling and calling and calling and I was able to get it pushed through. It definitely was not timely, but it had nothing to do with me. But if you're needing help, you need to reach out- the veterans service organizations that the VA representatives, those are the people to contact, let them know. Another person to contact would be your senators or other public officials to let them know what's going on with it.

And get the pressure to get those things moving. And once you've made a couple phone calls, then you notice how smooth things work. And it definitely helps because it's your life, you're trying to file a claim or whatever you need help with, or resources, it's yours. And if you don't have them, you got to get them.

Barbara: And the reason that I mentioned the question is that I think sometimes people can go through, it doesn't even have to be a crisis of faith, but just sort of this doubt. And my impression is that this kind of self-advocacy that you're talking about, Brian, it's not really very military and please correct me.

But you said before you have a mission, and you do what you're told. And so when you keep having to call and call and call to advocate for yourself, does that kind of feel like a whole new way of doing things?

Brian: Oh, very much so. And when you sign up to join, you're joining this large machine that keeps moving after you're gone, and everything was towards this one particular goal. So now that I'm transitioned out, I'm a retiree. My goal is me. It's myself. It's what I want. It's what I want for my family and thinking “I” all the time in this process is very foreign to folks that are told what to do, what to wear, where to be. And I get to run my own schedule.

I have a benefit of working from home, so I do all my work in my house. So working remote is another dynamic that's different as well, but I have to be on top of things that I want to do. And I think all the challenges and struggles keeping the faith, it's all led up to that moment where I'm like, you know what? There are certain things that I may want to do. And now I have that confidence because I wouldn't have experienced it if I went a different direction. Now I have confidence in myself and my ability, and that is key. You can have that in the military also, but when you're always being kind of told what to do and where to be and all that good stuff, you'll never get to kind of break out of that.

And it's almost too late because now you're like, Hey, I just did 20 years. And I'm early forties. Why am I afraid? That there should be no need to be afraid? And as long as you stay positive with it and keep that faith, I think that once you have some of those setbacks, it kind of reteaches you. Oh, I got this. That's no big deal.

Barbara: it's okay to have faith in ourselves, in addition to having faith in God, and we have a system that we hopefully can have faith in, but it's okay to advocate too. And to say, Hey, this is what I need. This is what my family needs. I may feel like I'm kind of pestering you, but that's okay, too.

Brian: I think God places us in situations that we can handle. And it's part of this growing process. And a lot of fear is out there, but you try to eliminate as much fear as possible. Have a great family dynamic, discuss your feelings. Get to the chaplains to talk to them, even if it's just once. I mean, at least, they're there and then, be patient through it.

Set some goals during the deployment. Maybe have some family goals as well. Maybe some sort of a transformation. I know a lot of people hit the gym during deployments, both for the military member deployed and then other people that are back home, it's set up with the way technology works.

It's an interesting way to keep your faith up and it helps you to not think negative when you're already in a situation that isn't pleasant. For folks transitioning, it's a whole different world, but it is 100% possible. You just gotta stay positive and keep pushing forward. No matter what, and just try not to get to that point where you're so low, that you feel like you can't reach out for help anymore. There's always help, and there's always your family and it'll be okay.

Barbara: and we want to honor that everybody's situation looks different and you had mentioned some times were way tougher and some times maybe were not as tough. So we just want to give that word of encouragement. Thank you so much for your time, Brian. 

Brian: Thank you for having me.

Resources:

Psalm 23

Isaiah 49:14

Downrange to Iraq and Back by Bridget Cantrell and Chuck Dean

Tour of Duty: Preparing our Hearts for Deployment by Sara Horn

Hope for the Homefront by Marshele Waddell

Wives of the Warriors by Ronda Sturgill

Sabbath with Linda

Barbara:  Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Linda Greenberg and our topic is Sabbath. I met Linda when we were both attending Simmons university in Boston for our undergraduate degrees.

Linda is Jewish and describes herself as reconformadox, which means not belonging to any one branch, but following the meaningful interpretations of many different rabbis. Linda is from Ohio, lived in Nebraska and Massachusetts and currently lives in the Philadelphia suburbs where she works in the pediatric field.

Linda dreams of world peace with acceptance of all by all. Welcome Linda, how are things in Pennsylvania?

Linda: Things are beautiful blossoming, and the world is coming back to life.

Barbara: Wonderful. I love creation at this time of year.

So our scripture verse today is from Exodus chapter 20 verse 11. “For in six days, the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. And he rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.”

יאכִּ֣י שֵֽׁשֶׁת־יָמִים֩ עָשָׂ֨ה יְהֹוָ֜ה אֶת־הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם וְאֶת־הָאָ֗רֶץ אֶת־הַיָּם֙ וְאֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֔ם וַיָּ֖נַח בַּיּ֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֑י עַל־כֵּ֗ן בֵּרַ֧ךְ יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־י֥וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֖ת וַֽיְקַדְּשֵֽׁהוּ:

It seems obvious to me, Linda, why you recommended this particular passage for today. And several previous podcast episodes have touched briefly on the subject of spending time with God on our faith journeys. What are some different ways of saying Sabbath and how is it different from vacation?

Linda: Okay, great question. Well, the Hebrew word Shabbat means to rest or to stop. And that's really where I think your question focuses. Are we just stopping work or is there more to it? One of my favorite rabbis, rabbi Heschel. Wrote a book called Shabbat and in it, he stressed the importance of Sabbath in a modern life for him.

He saw it as a retreat temporarily from our workday routine and creating within time, he calls the Shabbat a palace in time. And I really love that description because it's supposed to be not just stopping work, but it is supposed to be a day of holiness. A time of family and communing with God.

It's interesting. You read from Exodus 20, but really the first time it's mentioned is that the very, very beginning at Genesis two. Verses one to three, “Heaven and earth and all their components were completed with the seventh day. God finished all the work that he had done. He ceased on the seventh day from all the work that he had been doing.”

And here's the key, the crux: God blessed the seventh day and declared it to be Holy for it was on this day that God ceased from all the work. That he had been creating to function. And I think that is really the key, the whole idea that it's a day of holiness a day where you're building your relationship with God.

And I think that's at least in the Jewish tradition, the main emphasis.

Barbara: Great. And that makes sense, because we might think, well, I stopped work when I'm on vacation, but typically on vacation, the focus isn't drawing closer to God. I mean, unless you can do that maybe in nature or something, but if you're on a cruise or at Disney or at the beach or something like that typically most folks aren't devoting that to be a day of holiness, like you were describing,

Linda: right.

Barbara: I was curious about the weekly routine that you practice, and I imagine that when you set aside a specific time period on a regular basis for this Holy day, does it get a little busy right before you stop working?

Linda: Judaism has its traditional ways of celebrating Shabbat. And there are many different interpretations, just like there are many different interpretations in the Christian faith of the same passages. And the key thing with getting ready for Shabbat is that you're not working. You might say, Oh, I go to school. So I'm not going to type up my essay ,or I am a teacher, I'm not going to grade reports or whatever your job is. I'm in construction, I won't pick up a hammer. It's much, much more defined than that. And that's really key in preparation. In the Jewish tradition, words are really analyzed from the Hebrew. And the word used for work in the Genesis passage is not used that many times. There are other words for work. And so what the rabbis did was they said, okay, where else is the word “work” that we can find it in the exact same Hebrew? And it's interesting because what the rabbis noted was you have in Genesis, you have again in Exodus 31, where there are a couple of things happening.

The instructions are being given to build a tabernacle when the Jews are wandering from Egypt. And then the other thing, all of a sudden in the middle of explaining how to build this tabernacle, there's a reminder that you have to remember this Shabbat. And so the rabbis took this and they said, huh, there are 39 forbidden areas of work based on the 39 descriptions of work to build the tabernacle. So simple things such as cutting, such as dying wool, weaving, cutting, kindling, fire, hitting things with a hammer. And so in preparation for Shabbat, you have to say, okay, I am not permitted in traditional Judaism to do these things, which means basically everything needs to be cooked ahead.

You're not going to suddenly Saturday morning, get up and say, Oh, you know, I think for lunch after synagogue, I want to have a giant roast and I want to have potatoes and blah, blah, blah. Nope. By Friday sunset, all the cooking has to be done. Okay. So as it gets closer to Friday, sunset, hopefully you are prepared.

I can tell you a friend of mine always says the Sabbath waits for no one. So when it's time to light those candles, your work has to be done. And if you didn't bake your cake, well, you're not going to have cake on Shabbat. You know, life will continue. So personally we don't follow every law at my house, but what we do is the spirit of it.

I try to have prepared everything as much as I can. If you were to come into my house, you'll see the table is covered with a really pretty white tablecloth. We have our candle sticks ready. The electronic devices are plugged in because they're not supposed to be used on Shabbat. And so there's a lot of getting everything ready in a more traditional household than mine.

People won't turn on and off electricity, because it's been interpreted as kindling fire. There are different reasonings. Or, you won't drive a car, so you better have your car parked. There are definitely stories. I know of people driving gang stuck on 95. Because life happens, and literally pulling off in the first community they can, calling a rabbi and saying, I'm stuck here for Shabbat and being housed.

Barbara: Talk about hospitality. That's wonderful.

Linda: You thought it'd be a two hour trip and it's now four hours and you're in trouble. So basically, preparation is getting ready so that you don't work and it's a lot more effort ahead, it makes the day that much more enjoyable.

Barbara: And that's exactly why I asked, because I've talked with a number of folks who are Christian and said, yeah, yeah, someday, wouldn't it be nice if we could have more Sabbath time sort of conceptually, but the invitation is how can we create space? And I can't stay home for vacation because I think, well, I've got laundry piling up. I might as well cook while I'm here. I'm not going to eat in a restaurant every day when I'm home, but this is exactly what we're saying. You can be home and have this time, to me, that's precious, set aside. I'm guessing no laundry. And you already talked about cooking and no electronic devices.

Linda: If you're very traditional, you won't do laundry at all. If I have a kid who becomes ill in the middle of the night, I will do the sheets, but normally we don't do laundry.

Barbara: And then instead of only talking about the don't do's, I bet there's a wonderful amount of what you can do and how you spend your time together as a family, or maybe even some personal time during this period.

Linda: Oh, a hundred percent. You know, during the week, especially now during COVID dinners are eating together at my house as a family.

Dinner is very different on Friday night, there's discussion of the week's Torah. We traditionally divide the five books of Moses. So that each week you just read a little bit. So by the end of the year, you just restart. So there's discussion of that. We'll sing traditional songs. Saturday afternoon is our game day. After synagogue and lunch, we play lots of games. I have a whole shelf full of different games. I personally am part of a women's group that reads Psalms and I've gotten my girls involved in that.

So we make sure we get those read on Shabbat as part of a community effort. We know somebody reading one of the 150, so that the entire book is read. Throughout the community and keeping in mind, people who need strength for healing as well. So some of it's a little fun. Some of it's a little spiritual.

Barbara: Do you have any other comments in terms of making this day Holy and set aside and special?

Linda: how we usher in Shabbat is really special. We have on our refrigerator magnet with every Friday listed for the year and what time we have to light candles. That sunset time is when we usher in Shabbat. And it's actually a 25 hour period from beginning to end. And I love that we bring shabbat in with lighting candles because when you light a candle, it illuminates our world. You're adding light into the world that may be dark and negative.

And it's one of the things that we're taught as Jews is our mission on this world is to bring light into the world, bring God's holiness into the world. And there are different ways of doing that, but it just sort of reinforces that idea, that bonding of bringing light, bringing God into the world. And there's some mystics who say on Shabbat, you get the special, additional soul.

And when you light the candles, you're ushering in that soul. There's a song that’s sung literally all over the world. As you bring in Shabbat, Shalom, which means peace be with you and it's basically four stanzas and it's just so beautiful to usher in. This piece, but what you're doing in addition as you're welcoming angels into your house, and you're welcoming the words, I'm not going to tell you every word. But it's basically welcoming them. And asking for blessings of peace, wishing them a peaceful departure when it ends and it's really a beautiful custom.

Barbara: And in addition to the spiritual aspects of all of this, it comes across to me that there's really some practical stuff. You probably have a list that you're running through your head. You gave the example of the table and the candles and making sure you have your food preparation. And then you can just have this time of peace because you worked ahead of time.

Linda: Oh, a hundred percent. My kids know about five minutes before the time, I'm “calmly, quietly.” There may be a little scramble at the end, especially in the winter when it starts so early.  That's always a scramble, but this time of year when it's later, then it's much easier. And our house as well as many Jewish households is when you sit down for dinner, it's not just diving into dinner.

You've lit your candles. And then what goes on next? And this varies in house to house. Traditionally, the parents will bless the children. At my house, we actually do it at bedtime Friday night because I have four kids. So this way we can really make it special for each one as they're about to go to bed.

But the tradition is to do it at the Sabbath table and the blessing. Depending if you're doing girls or boys the opening is slightly different for boys. It's may God make you like Ephraim and Menasha; for girls, May God make you like Sarah, Rifka and Rochel and Aleia, and then you continue to the three-part blessing.

May God bless you and keep you my God shine light on you and be gracious to you. May God turn toward you and grant you peace. And so basically what you're doing is you're saying to your children, if they're boys Ephraim and Menasha, who were Jacob's grandchildren, who he blessed right before his death, they were Joseph's children who were born in exile, but yet kept up the tradition.

So you're saying to the boys, we want you to keep your traditions. For the girls, you're saying- we call them the mamas- Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah. We want you to use these people as role models, and then you continue with the priestly blessing, which is from Numbers: may God shine the light on you bringing in this idea of light.

From there, the next thing that happens at our table, as well as most around the world is you say kiddish, which is a blessing over the wine. And within that text, you're remembering the Exodus from Egypt. You're remembering what God has provided.

And then from there, everyone goes and washes their hands, but it's not because they're dirty or we're worried about COVID. It's a spiritual washing to sort of commemorate what happened in the temple when the temple existed you had the show breads, you had all these different things, but you wash your hands and then you don't speak.

It's quiet and you're not allowed to speak again until after you say the blessing for the bread. And then you have to have some bread. People think traditionally of the braided Challah, however, it can be any two loaves of your favorite bread. So I know someone who uses pita bread, but that's not the common customs.

And then you tear off some bread that you actually dip into a little bowl of salt to remember that at the time of the temple when there were sacrifices salt was used. And the nice thing is you have two loaves. We usually, do use Challah. And the reason you have two loves is when the Israelites left Egypt, they had to collect manna, but on Fridays they were instructed to collect two of these loaves, because on Shabbat, you don't collect manna. So once again, it's looking at the history, what is work, which we talked about and going out and harvesting or collecting Manna.

I don't know how difficult it actually was. But you take two loaves for that reason. And the story goes that if you took two during the week, one would become rotten, but not on Shabbat. So and then you have a meal, usually if people aren't big meat eaters, It's the meat meal for the week. Or you can do vegetarian too. As my older daughter is becoming more vegetarian.

And then after dinner, after any meal, actually, there’s a special prayer said thanking God for food. Looking for peace. And then at my house, I sing off key. My children bear with me. We sit around and we sing Shabbat songs and it's really nice.

It's just really a beautiful time. And if you're more traditional, you'll actually just take your dishes. Put them in your sink, which is filled with soapy water and not even touch them till after Shabbat.

Barbara: I imagine that you feel refreshed and maybe ready to get back to the world, but I don't know if that's true. So I thought I would ask, does it, does it feel like the separation is more of a challenge sometimes? And do you kind of feel energized and ready at the end of it?

Linda: I think so. I mean, it depends on the week. I personally go to bed as soon as dinner is over. My children may tuck me in  and it's the one night of the week I am not up past 11, which makes me very happy. So what happens the entire 25 hour period, really a separation from your mundane activities. I think it can be very rewarding in a spiritual sense as well.

Barbara: I had found myself taking some intentional Sabbath time during a very busy period when I had lots of emails coming my way and I was at home. I wasn't at a paid job at that time. And I just told people I'm not going to be checking my email for these hours. And it was such a relief. I look forward to it.

And then towards the end of it, I started feeling like, okay, I think I can deal with it now. I felt a little bit more refreshed. Not that that is a magic formula or anything like that, but just taking that time away. How can people who don't practice this regularly, how can people support each other?

And hopefully nobody's given you a hard time or other people in your family for kind of setting this limit, this parameter around your time.

Linda: No, it's fine. My one son flips off his cell phone and his friends all just have learned to accept we don't text him Saturday because he won't answer. So I think people respect it for the most part.

And you know, in communities where there are a lot of traditional Jews I think the non-Jewish community sort of just learns and it's an acceptance and I think that's really a good thing.

Barbara: And then you told me that there's a process of sanctifying the new week after the Sabbath concludes. What does that look like?

Linda: once it is 25 hours after candle lighting you have a small, I wouldn't really call it service, but you say some prayers. The primary symbol is a braided candle that you are permitted at this point to light. And the really beautiful we have one at the moment has red and white and yellows and blues. And it has to have two or more wicks. And like at the beginning of Sabbath, you are lighting a candle once again, bringing in that light into the world that goodness, but the braids, I've been told in their different traditions obviously, is that it represents all of the different types of people in the world and trying to unify it as one.

And I really liked that idea that you're going into the work week, looking at humanity as one. And so you liked the different wicks. You say a blessing over the wine, which is a symbol of joy. And you have a spice box. With some type of pleasant aroma, we have, I think in it at the moment some nutmeg and some cinnamon, but different spices.

And as you're smelling this, it's supposed to remind you of that sweetness of Shabbat as you're going into the work week. And you're curious with all of your senses, you see the light, you smell the spices, you take a small sip of wine. It's not like drinking a lot of wine at all.

And you are saying goodbye to Shabbat and you make a special blessing at the end, which it talks about distinctions between the Holy and the mundane. So we're saying at this point we are separating, but yet we were keeping this holiness in the back of our minds as we go into our work week.

And then you take the candle and you dip it into the wine. Our big thing at my house and most little kids is can you make it sizzle enough? It's like that sizzle sound serve as the arrival of the new week. So you're once again, wrapping up shabbat by reminding of holiness as you the same way that you ushered it in, but now those restrictions are lifted and you have to be able to carry on and do what you need to for the week.

Barbara: I have another practical question for you in case you can think of anything, because I just attended a workshop this past week that was sponsored by the national association of social workers in New York state for our Muslim siblings who are celebrating and practicing Ramadan this month about, there are some things that people can do to show respect and to be kind and to not necessarily walk with people, but to just support or not to sabotage or criticized or not to make things harder for someone who's really carving out time. So that's the reason why I'm interested in knowing if there's anything that someone who may not be as familiar with this practice that you've just described for us.

How can someone just be supportive or show kindness or create an atmosphere of acceptance for this practice? Especially Friday afternoon, people leaving work. You mentioned getting stuck on the highway.

Linda: I think the biggest thing, and this is true for anyone who practices any tradition is really communication. So if people are going to be following all the traditions, as someone who's Jewish, I shouldn't suddenly at 3:45, say to my boss, I'm leaving now. Right? But have that conversation. And then likewise, the boss will respond. Okay. That's fine. You can have off.

I know someone who works every Sunday because he won't work on Shabbat. And for me that hasn't been an issue because I'm working part time at this point, but his colleagues are like, okay, he has off Saturday, but he works Sunday. So, it's a trade balance and respecting people and communicating, and then figuring out a way so that you can help each other.

A friend of mine in college, a radio was left blaring in her dorm room. And she would not flip it off because she would not use electricity. And so she went out in the hall and said, Oh, I don't know how to flip this off, because she didn't want to blatantly ask someone who wasn't Jewish because you're not supposed to ask somebody blatantly cause it's just not the way it's done.

I have a friend of mine who's not Jewish who was telling me she was driving in Lakewood, New Jersey, which certain areas of it have a very large traditional Jewish area. She's like, Oh my gosh, they were all just walking across the street. And she was like, I just waited. Because they're not going to push the button to get the walk symbol. And obviously, you're not going to walk in front of a moving car. But people will wait if it looks like the traffic's clear and you're walking home from synagogue, you go across the street.

So it's little things like that. And I think it's just really, no matter what your faith tradition is, it's giving that respect.

Barbara: we noticed when we were in Israel that just this silence descended and it felt really peaceful. I wasn't paying attention to the time, which probably everybody else was paying very careful attention to what time it was. But the traffic stopped. It felt to me like the silence was peaceful and most of the restaurants were closed and maybe somebody had to work in the hotel and maybe they traded off like this other description that you said. And then just as you described, 25 hours later, things just pick back up. The traffic came and the horns were beeping. Just this very intentional time set aside for this practice. Do you have any other thoughts or maybe resources for someone who's interested in learning more or maybe incorporating some practices into their own life around setting time aside?

Linda: Ooh, that's a tough question, Barbara. I think what you have to do is go within your own faith practice and see what's there. I think there are different ways for different people to set aside time. I mentioned earlier rabbi Heschel book called Shabbat.

The tradition in Judaism is if you're not Jewish, you don't have to follow Shabbat. So there are seven laws, which are basically don't kill, don't steal that everybody's supposed to follow, but there's nothing.

Barbara: I read a phrase that someone wrote called Holy envy and some people say like, Oh, the Sufis danced beautifully. Or five times a day, there's a call to prayer. But we're all different as well as all being united. So I'm not saying that people need to just appropriate this and carry it over, that's not the message, but just the topic in general, because it seems like people do expect that answer to their email and people don't even use all their vacation time.

Linda: I don't understand that.

Barbara: Yep. So your homework assignment is take your vacation time if you have it. And I also know some people say, well, your idea of vacation might be to get on an airplane and go to somewhere beautiful, but your vacation doesn't have to be getting on an airplane and going somewhere beautiful. In terms of time and budget and things like that, too.

Linda: I agree.

Barbara: And you had mentioned the blessing of the children, Linda. And that's something that I had also witnessed. I worked for many years with families from a Latin X heritage and they bless their children every time they went out their door.

And I just thought that was so precious. So I was wondering this blessing that you had mentioned is that a particular practice for the Friday evening?

Linda: You bless your kids Friday night. One thing, Benjamin will call in tonight for his blessing and Ken already blessed Hannah because with the time change, that's right there being in Jerusalem. So it's not just for little kids.

Barbara: love that. So even long-distance people will call in.

Linda: Yeah, and it's a nice way to catch up on the week as well.

Barbara: You would need to do that then, hypothetically, before you would stop using electronic devices and phones

Linda: and it's usually around 6:30 AM, 7:00 AM. And so it's then seven hours ahead. I think. So that's at 1400, which is like two o'clock there.

Barbara: I am so appreciative of your time today. Do you have any other words of wisdom on any other topic of your choice to share today?

Linda: I sent you two different things with music, a song without words. And if you think about the movie Fiddler on the roof. What does Tevya do? You know? He goes, dah, dah, dah, it's like you're communing with God. I think they're just beautiful.

Barbara: I clicked through to those when you gave them to me. And even if I can't play them now on the podcast as a copyright respect, I can put links to them on the website and anyone can listen to them. Because they were very beautiful. Is that something that you would typically listen to on a Friday evening or Saturday?

Linda: We don't play music.

Barbara: Okay. Thank you for correcting me. I apologize.

Linda: Oh, but that's okay. But some people do. Like we're not Uber religious that way, but we're traditional. We flip on lights.

And the interesting thing is with COVID our synagogue live streams, the services, and some people will just leave their computers on some will totally not do that. Like my brother, he would not.

His community, they were meeting in backyards in small groups. And like Jewish broadcast network. Which is on Verizon and Comcast and they have their own link. They have services both Friday night and Saturday morning. So you could theoretically use timers to have it come on.

Barbara: great. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Cause you don't want to put someone in a moral or ethical dilemma where they feel like they're disobeying their faith practices, but you still want it to be accessible if you can't gather in person.

Linda: Which is sort of an interesting issue. If you're really much more traditional than we are, you're not going to do it at all period, but in the community I'm active and it's acceptable.

Barbara: thank you for sharing that, because this is the reality of our days. How do we meet our spiritual needs in different ways while still doing the best?

Linda: there's a woman who works at the synagogue all the time. Norma, she's a lovely woman. And she's not Jewish. So she learned how to operate the zoom in case there was a problem. If for some reason it were to go off, she'll click it on without being asked. The decision was made for Saturday morning, Friday night services. People are muted. You can be singing at home because it was such a cacophony. But weekday morning services, not everyone's muted and Ezra goes, when he's not at school, he's like, ah, you just get used to it, mom.

Barbara: Yes. For some people that's a really powerful way of worshiping and communicating with them. Thank you for letting us know about that. Do you have any final thoughts for us today on this topic?

Linda: first, let me thank you for having me come today. I really appreciate your time and your audiences. I hope that by sharing cultures, we can all grow in our understanding of each other, but my big take home message about Shabbat is basically what I said at the beginning. That the way it's sort of thought of in Judaism as a cathedral in time, while God is always with us, it's a time when a person can really focus on his, her relationship with God versus the rest of the week. When we work on our relationships with the rest of humanity and the people that we come in contact with.

And it's a tradition- I don't know what day of the week people will be listening to this, but if it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, it's okay to say an early good Shabbat. And if not, I hope you'll take that message to heart and have a good day.

Barbara: You too. Thank you again, Linda,

Linda: take care, Barbara.

Resources:

Exodus 20:11

Genesis 2:1-3

Shabbat by Rabbi Heschel

https://www.hadar.org/tefillah-music/albums

Faith after trauma

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Laura Champagne. I met Laura in upstate New York as she has been a military spouse for 10 years and was on active duty herself for 11 years.

Laura grew up in several different states, mostly on the west coast, lived in New York and is now in Missouri. She grew up in a 4-square Christian Church and then explored different life and faiths situations as a teen and young adult after a traumatic experience when she was in a great deal of emotional pain. She recommitted to Jesus as an adult.

Laura is currently a college student and a Mary Kay consultant. Her dream is to serve the Lord in whatever capacity she can. Welcome. Laura, how are things for you in Missouri today?

Laura: They are wonderful. Thank you for asking, Barbara.

Barbara: Our topic today is faith after trauma. And for the first time ever since starting this podcast, I want to offer a trigger warning, which is a term that I learned in social work.

And that is to honor where people might be in their own lives. In terms of, if you, as a listener, have a traumatic history that you're just aware that we're going to be talking about some things today, mostly about faith and emotional healing, but we're going to just be using some language that might trigger some feelings in you.

So we just want to be really open and transparent about that. We're going to offer a prayer at the beginning of this conversation, regarding this topic. Laura, thank you so much for offering a prayer for us right now.

Laura: Thank you. So father God, we just come into your presence right now with thankfulness in our heart that you began a good work at us and you will bring it to finish. I'm so grateful for the healing that you've put in my life. And I know there are many people out there that are hurting and need healing.

And so father I'm really quickened in my heart on the scripture where you said that we overcome the enemy by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. And it is by that blood of Jesus at the cross, that you shed that blood for our healing. And so Lord, I just pray for everyone who might be listening today, that my testimony would bring healing to their hearts, to their souls and that they could walk in victory from this day forward, in Jesus name. Amen.

Barbara: thank you very much, Laura. We have a Bible passage today from the book of Proverbs, and I actually can't remember that we've ever read something out of Proverbs previously. So if you have a Bible with you, when you want to follow along with us, it's a little bit to the left of center. So it's in the old Testament, the Hebrew scripture, and we have today for you, chapter three, verses five through eight from the new international version that I'm going to read for you now.

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, submit to him and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.” Laura, why is this verse so precious to you?

Laura: so much of God's word is precious to me, but this particular one I love to lean on because I don't want to trust in myself. And so many times we live in a world where it screams, trust yourself. And I want to trust the Lord in my life. And if I lean on my own understanding, I'm just going to go in a path that's going to be very unvictorious and destructive for me. So I want to give everything to the Lord every day, because my understanding can really go crazy on me and he promises the straight path for me.

And the Lord has so much for me and I want to walk in his wisdom, not my own. Then of course it goes on a lot of people know that first part, but I was blown away later on in life. And that second part. Where it says when we do fear the Lord and shun evil, well, there is health through our body and nourishment to our bones.

I'm kind of a health person. I really like to be healthy. And so I spent so many years in so much pain in my heart from what I'm going to share. And there's just so much freedom and healing, and forgiveness and trusting the Lord.

Barbara: And we humans might not be able to see that we're either going off the path or sometimes we kind of know, like, I am not on God's path right now. Or the stress of life where the temptations of life kind of get in the way of staying on that path.

So we have a process of healing that we're going to be talking about, but often healing does start with tremendous pain. And how does your life grow through that healing. So what is it that you would like to share with us today, Laura?

Laura: So some of the things I'm gonna say is kind of shocking, but just remember that God is the God of the past, the God of now and the God of the future. So I just want anyone who's listening to know that we don't have to live in the past.

But we do need to address things if we're still living in the past in our hearts. So a lot of people may have experienced trauma in their home. I came from a very good family- my mom and dad both loved Jesus, had me in church as a child. I just didn't understand Jesus. So then, life happens and people struggle in their walk with the Lord. And as a teenager, my parents were struggling in their walk and we stopped going to church.

And as a teenager I had an idea of Jesus and I love to Jesus, but I just didn't understand who he was. I remember as a teenager going from private school to public school and I really was pretty gullible, and we have to be careful what kind of friends we have in school- they kind of led me in a different direction. And I was just kind of led with them because I wanted friends, you know? And I went to a party with them and I drank alcohol and smoked marijuana. And I remember telling these what I thought were my friends, not every one is your friend, but I thought they were my friends- stay with me, please. And they did not. And there was a young man, same age as me. We were all 14 and he raped me.

He was very aggressive and very violent about it. And I remember them carrying me to their house afterwards and they dropped acid and were laughing at me all night long and I was in so much pain. So you got to remember 14 year olds don't know how to logically process things very well. And so it was just traumatized and just in pain and not understanding what just happened to me. And I was a very much afraid. And when you've been raped , I was a Virgin by the way. And I thought it was me. I shouldn't have been there. I shouldn't have smoked marijuana. I shouldn't drink alcohol. You know, this happened because I was at a party, all the things that a teenager or any woman generally would process in her head, was it my fault? And it wasn't, this is where my mindset was. And I was afraid to tell my parents is I came from a good family, you know?

And I didn't want to hurt anybody. So I just lived in my own pain, not understand this. And so in my unlogical mind, I thought, well, I want nothing to do with boys my age. And I felt dirty, so I acted dirty. I don't know why, but that's just how I acted. So from that point on some of the signs that were happening in my life was that I was sleeping with men.

I thought in my head, I can't have anything to do with boys my age I was hurting so bad that I started self mutilating, you know, teenagers, they start getting acne and I was getting it on my shoulders and my arms and my face. And I just started picking my arms, especially this was my way of hiding. And numbing out the pain. I just didn't know what was going on with me. I just know I was hurting at the time and my parents saw it changed in me, but they didn't know what was going on. Other than the friends I was hanging out with was bad influence.

So they did what every parent would do, to try to control their child's lifestyle, and they did great that way, but the problem was I was still hurting and that proceeded to continue on. And I'm just going to fast forward to when I was 16, I went to another party.

That lifestyle that didn't change. A person just justifies their pain and starts hiding in alcohol. I didn't smoke marijuana after that cause I kinda thought, well, drugs kind of stink. I'm never doing that again. You know, that's the way they did it. But alcohol really help numb the pain at the time. So I didn't have Jesus or leaning on Jesus at the time because I really didn't understand that he was a healer to me.

And I fell in love with a man who ended up becoming the father of my son. I had him at 17, but when I was 16, this rape was different than the 14 year old rape. I didn't know that boy. I knew this man, you know, and rape can come in all different forms.

Barbara: People can be raped by not only people they're dating, but even within a marriage relationship, there can still be raped.

Laura: Yes. Cause it was no, no matter how much they said no, it happened. So then more confusion started to happen in me, and I was screaming inside. What's wrong with me? I just didn't understand it. But at the same time I was behaving in manners that were just unacceptable, dressing unacceptable, acting unacceptable, going out with men. He took me into an underground world in San Diego that people don't know exist. And as a 16 year old, it scarred me, like, you can't take back what you see. It was just awful. And I think it took me longer to heal from that than the actual rapes, if that makes any sense. Cause the physical abuse healed, but anything that's going on in your mind, it takes a while for that to heal. So when I was there, I was like, I kind of felt like a mouse in a snake. Do you know, just sitting there ready to get eaten, just destroyed and very scary for me. And I would say that that all three of those incidents were all part of my trauma that I experienced and just didn't go away. And I had this hate for men and yet I had this love for people.

It was really strange, I still loved people, but I really just didn't understand men at the time and why they were doing what they did to me. I remember moving up to the high desert at the age of almost 20. I got an apartment and I just wanted to start fresh.

I met my husband, my daughter's father and of course did the same pattern that I was used to, sleeping with him right away. And so it didn't really go away, thinking I could start over. Didn't really help. I continued in my patterns. And I remember in that marriage, just thinking maybe I should become a lesbian because I was just so angry toward men.

And I was in Mary Kay at the time and I recruited 29 Christians. God is good, I tell you. And they were all telling me about Jesus. And there was one particular lady named Jo Ward. I'll never forget her. She told me, come on over to my house and teach me Mary Kay. Don't forget your Bible. And she proceeded to the share the love of Christ and she showed me with her lifestyle as well. And I'm really grateful for her. She taught me how to pray. And I moved because my husband at the time was in the air force. We moved to Fayetteville, North Carolina, and somebody invited me to the church that was down the street. I thought it was actually Jehovah witness church cause it was called Northwind temple, but it was actually a Pentecostal church. There was about 5,000 members. So it was a mega church. And I walk in, I was just blown away.

Now God has a sense of humor. There was an evangelist speaking that day that I came as a guest. And she was a female and she was dressed in a, I'll never forget, a leopard outfit. And she proceeded to grab a man out of the audience that had this Jesus' image of Hollywood. Like, this is what I was stuck in. Jesus is this white Jesus with blue eyes and a trickle of blood at the cross- wrong vision of Jesus in my heart. I just had this Hollywood idea. And I believe in him, I just didn't understand him. And she proceeded to go through the crucification of Christ and how they beat him, tore his beard off and, you know, whipped him.

And he was just a massive bloody mess. By the time he went. He was carrying that cross and couldn't carry it. Somebody else carried it. He died on the cross right away. I mean, he was beat for my transgressions and I'm telling you, Jesus became alive to me that day. That's the day that Jesus became Lord to me.

And I felt like an obese person got off of me and was sitting on me. I was free and I had been reading the Bible and recruiting Christians and stuff for a couple of years at that point, but the Bible wasn't making much sense to me cause I was trying to understand it in my own understanding.

And I needed the Holy spirit and the day I was free- now, the healing still needed to take place from my trauma, but I was free. Jesus became Lord in my heart that day. And Jesus promised us to give us the Holy spirit who is our comforter and our counselor and

Barbara: our advocate.

Laura: And it was that day that I began my journey of healing, nearly everything was new and the Bible became very fresh to me. And now I was reading this living word. That's active. In my life, I was reading it with the help of the Holy spirit instead of me trying to figure it out, you know? And so I was starting to gain understanding.

And of course, then he retired and we moved to Connecticut and I was on fire. Jesus really was involved in everything and I remember a pastor named Toby Quirk. I'll never forget him- a retired vet, he was a pastor and he started a small group and I was in this small group and a lot of them were like, why are you here? I look kind of normal to them cause they were either drug addicts or prostitutes. It was a harsh group. You know what I mean? Just a group of Motley crews.

Barbara: siblings in Christ.

Laura: God loves them so much. But I was like this housewife that to them, I was like normal, but I wasn't, I was hurting. I was so much pain and they didn't realize that. And when I started sharing what happened to me, one of the ladies who was one of their prayer warriors. She said, Laura, stick your hand up and look at your fingernails. She says, I see you like a cat. And she just started looking at her finger nails and she said, God is declawing you so that you won't reopen those wounds anymore. And that really just stuck with me because our God, he wants us healed. You know, he wants us well and he wants us to have life and having an abundancy and he has saved us for a reason.

There's people out there, they need to know Jesus in our sphere of influence. And so I needed to get well for me so I can shine for Jesus. Barbara, I share with you the Johari window. So I learned in the same grouping, it was like a 12 step program, but for Christ. And I remember him teaching there's four panels. The first one is, I can talk about this to anybody, I'm totally transparent in this area.

And the second panel is, I only speak this to my closest friends. And the third one is why does everybody see this in me? I don't see this in me. Why am I having these patterns in my life and I don't see them, they say, why are you act that way? I don't see I'm acting this way. So our friends and family can share a lot into our lives if we're open and teachable, that's that period.

And the fourth one is the unconscious where only God knows what's going on inside you in that area, and the Holy spirit can heal that area in you. I really believe that God put that in every human being, because there's only one thing that can fill that in that's Jesus Christ. And we're always feeling that with all sorts of things, drugs, alcohol, all sorts of habitual sins, eating.

It doesn't matter what it is, even being a workaholic. It doesn't matter. We will try to fill that hole with anything in our life and it's really just one place. And that's Jesus. To heal. So so the healing started and I'll tell you , the more I got in the word, the more healing there's so much promises and God's word and healing to place.

And so the key to that healing was forgiveness. Forgiveness is very hard, especially for yourself, you know, To forgive yourself and to forgive others. And at that moment, when I was going through that healing the Holy spirit of course, was calling me to forgive. I cannot be forgiven by the father if I don't forgive others. And so I needed to forgive those individuals, the one that raped me at 14 and the one who took me into that underground. At first, it was more of a I forgive, but I didn't have any feelings or emotions that went with it. It was just more out of obedience, you know?

Okay. I'm just doing it. God. Okay. I'm doing it. But I don't feel like I forgive, and it took a while. I can't remember. I'm sure it took months. I remember I journalized a lot. Writing out prayers and forgiveness for those individuals. And just continuing in that.

And as I worshiped, I would just remember them and say, forgive them, Lord , just like Jesus says, forgive them. They know not what they're doing. And just holding on to God's word through that process, it became easier. And easier. And then I found myself so healed. I was capable of talking to somebody about my life and it wasn't affecting me anymore.

I mean, I remember it. I have the scars of it, but it's those scars aren't hurting me anymore. And I remember there was a woman that came to the church and she was addicted to drugs and I gave her a big hug. She was a very large woman and she was judged and treated not very loving at the church she had went to before our church. And the first thing I did was give her a big hug  in my way of greeting her. A week later, she came over to my house and put her paraphernalia in my hands and said, I don't do drugs anymore. Will you pray with me? She became my prayer partner for two years and we both had a book called prayers that avail much for mothers and we would pray God's words. Every day together.

And do you know that I was capable of being delivered from picking at my arms at the same time? And so God wants to heal, restore everything about you, so that is my story. And God is always working in our life.

Barbara: Thank you so much for trusting me, Laura, and for being willing to share the story with the prayer, that it can help someone else on their own journey of healing. And I want to just reflect back that first, I'm so sorry that this happened to you and I'm so grateful for your testimony of this journey.

Through many years, nobody's saying, well, you should just heal immediately or for give for immediately. Now, if this is a possibility for you, sometimes there are miraculous healings. So that's not my place to say, but just in terms of we're talking about judgment and grace and forgiveness, that I don't want anyone who has survived an assault to feel that sense of self-blame and people get assaulted, even if they haven't been drinking, if they haven't used any type of drugs, if they haven't been wearing provocative clothing, because society does tend to blame the victim. So I just want to honor that and really lift that up.

We do judge ourselves, but to not feel, Oh, it's my own fault that this terrible thing happened to me. And I also want to honor that different people came in at different times in your life. And then at some point you became available to help different people. At different times in your life, as well as a prayer warrior and as a friend and probably in many roles as well.

And one word that you said to me before the recording, you used the word accountability, and I'm curious if you have a couple of examples during your faith journey, what did you mean? Are there different kinds of accountability? How can that be helpful and not judgmental?

Laura: Accountability is so important because of the fact that you're not alone. I feel like the enemy, he's always shooting arrows at us. And if we're living in this mentality of an Island of ourselves, then we're going to just get assaulted by the enemy’s lies. And when you have somebody you're accountable to, you can edify one another and speak truth to each other and encourage one another in prayer and you aren't feeling alone, you know?

I think accountability is important for anything. I think men need to be accountable to the men in the church, for all aspects, and the same for females. I will seek out that church mama that has lived her life and positive into me, things that I need to know. You know, we really should look up to the church, the women who have walked with Christ.

Barbara: Our spiritual mentors.

Laura: we need mentors in our life. So I really believe that accountability just keeps you on the path because we literally can veer off all the time or alone. But if we have these accountable partners in our life, people that we can pray with, we're going to tend to stay on the path and this journey with the Lord.

Barbara: Thank you so much. And I don't always read the same passage in different translations, but I absolutely love the message translation. And it's not a word for word translation, but I would just like to read the passage that you had selected from Proverbs chapter three, verses five to eight in the message version, because the language is just a little bit different and I still honor the original one. There's nothing wrong with the original one, but the message says, “trust God, from the bottom of your heart. Don't try to figure out everything on your own. Listen for God's voice in everything you do, everywhere you go. He's the one who will keep you on track. Don't assume that, you know it all. Run to God, run from evil. Your body will glow with health. Your very bones will vibrate with life.”

Laura: So I didn't share the period at the end of the sentence, when it comes to forgiveness. Of the person [who raped me when] I was 16 years old, the father of my son. So forgiveness is powerful. God is a loving God. And years later, fast forward, 22 years later, he flies into town from all the way across the country, 2008, as a born again, Christian, says, I can't walk with Jesus, not one day without asking for forgiveness for what I did to you. I was a selfish man. And he asked my parents for forgiveness.

He crawled right up on that cross. He asked my son for forgiveness. He asked all of us and we had communion together. Only our God can do that. I mean, I would have never thought when I was praying and asking for forgiveness for my sins, but also for his, for what he did to me.

And just praying and worshiping Christ and thinking about him and asking the Lord to forgive him, had no idea that that would happen, ever. And so God is into healing everyone, not just the person that has experienced the trauma, but the selfish person that did it, too.

Barbara: Do you have any words of wisdom if there's someone who is really at the beginning of their healing journey, after a traumatic experience? And there are many different types of trauma, of course, and not everyone's healing  processes is the same either, but do you have any thoughts on some different ways of helping and embarking on that healing journey?

Laura: Sure. Just trust me in this- dive into God's word. You know, there's so much healing in his word and to start giving it to the Lord and asking him to bring people into your life. But if you're submitted to a church family, this will also help. And there are also counselings out there that are great to go to.

I'm an advocate for Christian counselors that are not necessarily just in the church, but there are counseling places that you can go to there the counselors have the pastoral degree and the psychology degree to help bring healing to you, give you the tools you need, which I didn't do until 2000.

So remember, I went through a lot of healing in the church, but there were still things I needed healing on and patterns that I was still having in my life. And so if you can connect with one of those, that would be great, too. Just going to Bible study and asking your pastor, for maybe small group.

Barbara: I can have a bunch of resources also listed on the 40 minutes of faith.com website. Even if they're not resources that you personally experienced as well, because I know that there are nowadays resources for people even immediately after say a sexual assault or something like that.

And again, that's not coming from a place of judgment because I know yeah. That even going through the reporting, even going to the hospital could feel retraumatizing for people that you're reporting it. They're asking you all kinds of questions, things like that. So that's entirely up to each individual person.

Laura: Yeah. And if a person is just been, they should go to a hospital, I didn't know that back then. And the early eighties, we didn't understand that, go straight to the hospital, but that is important to do if you've just been traumatized, to have the rape kit done, report to a police officer, that kind of stuff.

Very important. Do you still need to do those legal aspects? Cause if you don't, that person could rape somebody else again. So it's really important to get the law in there , if you just recently happened to you, getting the help you need.

Barbara: And I know Laura, you're much more familiar with the army, even though I'm affiliated personally with the army, but I worked for the air force and they had two different kinds of reporting after an assault, you could do a full report or a restricted report. Does the army have something like that as well?

Laura: Oh, absolutely. A lot of people didn't know if it's a restrictive report, you didn't want to expose the perpetrators, then you could keep it restrictive. That doesn't mean that you couldn't change it later. But a lot of times the person that just got traumatized, they just don't know how to process all that.

And they just want to be left alone. And so you want to protect that person while they're going through that process. Command will not know, only advocates and the chaplain, and it's just completely a hundred percent confidential. But then when the victim process that goes through it, then they can change that later.

Barbara: And I know that's some technical information that might not apply to everybody outside of the military context. Any other thoughts, Laura, for folks around the healing and faith journeys after trauma?

Laura: Just get as much help as you can, be accountable. I think that when you start to expose those things, that's when healing starts to take place, you've got to bring it out. Don't, don't live inside yourself because that's where you're not healthy. You know, you're just all by yourself. You've got to give it to somebody and start that healing process. Get people praying for you and ask for the Lord to help you forgive the person who's done that for you. So stay in God's word, go to church, worship. When we worship there's some  beautifulness when you're worshiping, even through your pain.

Barbara: Yeah, thank you. And I also just want to echo what you just said about it's easy to want to just stuff it down and to ignore it. And it sounds to me like you tried that for a while. You did share with us that you were acting out in some ways, but who wants to remember that stuff? So as a licensed social worker, I'd say the counseling process might also be just as scary as the hospital room, if someone's saying, what happened in your past, but would you say that unpacking it was painful, but was it worth it afterwards?

Laura: It was absolutely. I like what you just said, unpacking it. You might cry, but it's okay. Just let the Lord heal you, no matter what, just say, okay, Lord, let me go on this journey.

And let's live here. Be honest with the Lord Jesus, because there are some people who might be angry at God. Why did you let this happen? Go through it and know that God is big enough. He doesn't need your forgiveness, but you know what? You go ahead, forgive God. Just run to your father, no matter what reason with him and just let him heal you because our minds can just be so messed up and we just are logical. We just don't get it a lot of times. And so just giving it to the Lord and trusting him. That's why I like that verse so much because I know my mind and my lifestyle is going to mess it all up.

But if I just trusting him through that journey, he's going to get me through. All everything I might not understand. And I'm confused about, he's gonna let me know when I'm standing, it's going to help me understand.

Barbara: I really also want to support that I'm not saying never be angry at God. I wonder if that might be messages that some people have had. We're taught to obey God, to fear God, things like that. So how can it be okay to be angry with God? But that then later through the years of your life, you found peace and reconciliation with God. In addition to someone who had hurt you very badly.

Laura: people might not necessarily be angry. Oh, I can't be angry at God. He's God, but you're lying to yourself when you're sometimes I'm like, okay, God, I don't know why. I didn't just give that to you. You already knew that. Why am I hiding my anger from you? Because God really wants us to be really real with him because they already know we're hurting, you know? And, and I would be lying to say, I'm angry with you right now.

Because even today, even though I haven't got the trauma that happened to me as a child, even today, something might happen and I'm like angry and I'm like, why am I angry? Wait a minute. I haven't really been spending some time with you, father. And that's why our journey is a daily one, you know? Step by step. He doesn't expose anything too far from us because we just can't handle it. We need one step at a time and he lights my path one step at a time

Barbara: and it's biblical precedent. I can say with great confidence that you are not alone. We are not alone. People have been hiding from God since the garden of Eden. And the Psalms are full of pain and anger at God, and many other books of the Bible, especially some of the prophets, why is this happening God? And so remembering God's faithfulness is part of the journey, even in times of feeling abandoned, perhaps.

Laura: Amen. Faith and forgiveness are together. We really needed to forgive and forgive fast daily, because that helps us walk by faith. It really does instead of fear, because fear is the opposite of faith. That's great.

Barbara: It speeds the process, but I can't thank you enough, Laura, for your time and your honesty and your generosity in hopes that anyone else might pick up a few tips from this.

Laura: I do pray and hope that whoever's listening will do what it takes to get healing. And they just trust the Lord in this journey. I've been praying all week now for healing of whoever's listening. I do want to see you healed and walking in victory in Jesus.

Resources:

Proverbs 3:5-8

Prayers That Avail Much by Germaine Copeland

https://www.celebraterecovery.com/about/cr-ministries

https://www.rainn.org/

https://www.healthynumbers.com.au/using-the-johari-window-to-really-get-to-know-yourself/

https://spoonuniversity.com/healthier/3-important-things-you-should-know-about-suicide (hotline numbers)

Remembering and forgetting

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God.

Today, I'm going to be giving several Bible verses, starting with a few in the book of Isaiah, which is just about near the middle of your Bible. And I'm also going to be asking some questions for personal reflection.

I took a class on Isaiah last semester, and I'm not going to give you a detailed historical presentation today, but there's lots of interesting information. Some of you may have Bibles that have an introductory page or paragraph about books, and some of you might have Bible commentaries that give further detail on a lot of verses.

So I obviously can't condense a four-month class into just 40 minutes together today, but I would recommend if you have the time to take a look at some of the interesting historical information about many of the prophets. I also really enjoyed a course on the minor prophets that I took two years ago. And was really pleasantly surprised. I referenced that in some previous episodes about my seminary classes. So I just encourage you to take a look at some additional information about these books of the Bible.

One example of context that I'd like to give you is from my Lutheran study Bible, which will be listed in the resources section of the transcript on the 40 minutes of faith.com website. There's an introduction to each book of the Bible. Just for your information, some history. And I'm just going to read a couple of sentences because the passages that I have selected for today come from the second major portion of the book of Isaiah, which is chapters 40 to 55.

And I had no idea before taking this class, that Isaiah is such a long book with so many chapters that it wasn't actually all written by the same person. It was written over the course of many years. And there's historical differences in details related to those authors. So during the second portion of Isaiah, where today's examples are from the people have been exiled in Babylon, and there are many other different areas of scripture also that talk about that time period. And there's all sorts of political Wars going on power struggles.

And then the people returned from exile. So you can read more about that in Daniel and in Jeremiah. So there's some really interesting stuff besides just the actual scripture verses themselves for you to be aware of.

Our first passage for today is from the 49th chapter of Isaiah. And the theme for today's episode is remembering and forgetting. We're going to have a few upcoming episodes about different aspects of this theme, forgetting and remembering. So even though each episode is usually completely standalone, this is an introduction into some aspects of our relationship with God and what are we remembering and what are we forgetting and what is God remembering? And what is God forgetting?

Isaiah 49:15, “can a woman forget her nursing child or show no compassion for the child of her womb? Even these may forget yet, I will not forget you.”

So the first question for consideration is, do we humans forget God sometimes? And if so, when is it that we have forgotten God? And is it easy to forget God? Is it maybe not easy to forget God? But the first question for today is do we forget God? And I have two verses to support that question.  And this Bible study is never meant to kind of hit people over the head or make accusatory or judgmental statements, but maybe an invitation to awareness or accountability. So that's the purpose for these because none of us are perfect. 

I also want to include a comment that I want to be coming from a place of love. I have mentioned previously in podcast episodes that I'm aware that there are people who struggle with fertility issues or infertility issues and have had really heartbreaking experiences around having a child.

And so I want to just honor that the verse in Isaiah that I just read isn't intended to poke at a place of pain, perhaps for some people, but to show the word that's used in that verse is compassion. I understand it as a way of illustrating God's compassion for us, the way we would typically think of a loving parental relationship.

So Deuteronomy is at the very beginning of your Bible and I'm going to read Deuteronomy chapter eight, verse 14: “then do not exalt yourself, forgetting the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.”

So we are called to remember the things that God has done for us historically over the centuries, as well as in our own lives now.

The second supporting verse is from the book of Judges also in the Hebrew scripture, the old Testament. So in the first part of your Bible. I'm going to read for you Judges chapter three, verse seven: “the Israelites did what was evil in the sight of the Lord forgetting the Lord, their God and worshiping the Baals and the Asheras.”

So those are examples of other gods, could be idols, say, statues or something like that, that people worshiped.  And that was displeasing to God.  The first commandment is you shall have no other gods before me. So I want to just point out that in addition to remembering and forgetting as a broad theme, we have some really specific examples.

So in the first verse that I read from Isaiah, God is remembering us. And maybe we sometimes feel forgotten in addition to maybe us sometimes forgetting God ourselves. The verse from Deuteronomy talks about remembering this heritage of salvation and care from God. And then also an example of what happens sometimes. Are we worshiping something else besides God? And there's whole separate Bible studies about that. In fact, probably many Bible studies talk about that theme, but just to think, am I putting my focus on something else besides God? And to the point where I'm elevating this, either other person or this thing could be materialism or objects or greed or whatever, just what I want that I'm almost to the point of worshiping it and forgetting God?

So this is one question- and I have a whole bunch of more questions, but I want to just kind of give you a heads up that in some upcoming episodes, we're going to be talking very specifically about ways that we can either at times, forget God or the way we might feel forgotten by God.

And I typically say that no feeling is wrong. You can have whatever feeling you have, but there are times when we might feel like God has forgotten us and we need some reminders. So that's part of the purpose of this time that we're taking a look at Isaiah and some supporting verses.

I also have another verse about remembering and forgetting in the book of Isaiah and that's in chapter 43, verse 25: “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.”

So this is something that is very real in many people's lives that we remember our own sins. And one of the things that we're going to be talking about in one particular episode is the concept of forgiveness. And again, those are whole other studies, but just as it relates to forgetting, this verse says that God will not remember our sins. And so we're going to be getting into a little bit more detail with that in the future, but to consider, are we holding onto stuff that God has already let go? Are we dragging around baggage about others as well as our own wrongdoings? How difficult or easy is it to forget our own sins, or do we kind of hold onto them and beat ourselves up even more than, you know, God has already forgiven us?

So we are considering sin, and remembering and forgetting. And I again have two supporting verses for that concept. Here is Psalm one Oh three verses eight through 12: “God is sheer mercy and grace not easily angered. He's rich in love. He doesn't endlessly nag and scold nor hold grudges forever. He doesn't treat us as our sins deserve nor pay us back in full for our wrongs. As high as heaven is over the earth, so strong as his love to those who fear him. And as far as sunrise is from sunset, he has separated us from our sins.”

And I just want to say wow, after that! Some traditions might say amen at the end of that, or Hallelujah.

Now we do have examples of God's anger. So I just want to acknowledge that nobody would say, well, the Bible doesn't have any examples of God being angry. God does get angry, but we have, what's known in the Lutheran tradition of law and gospel. So we do have God's law. We know what it is that we are aiming to be doing what we should be doing.

And we also have the gospel message, which is that we can't earn our salvation. Salvation is a free gift and that we then turn towards doing what God wants, knowing that we can't earn it, knowing that it's free. And the terms for that are justification and sanctification, just in case you're wondering.  This verse is so powerful to me that God doesn't endlessly, nag and scold.

God doesn't hold grudges forever. He doesn't treat us as our sin deserves nor pay us back in full for our wrongs. And there was a previous episode with one of my professors, Martin Lohrmann. If you want to take a look at that, that goes into way more detail about what I just referenced about law and gospel and our behavior and God's behavior towards us.

So if you want some more information and you missed that episode, there is a video version on YouTube with the little chart that the professor made up and there's the audio only version where hopefully you can follow along with the information just verbally without taking a look at the chart.

 And I have another verse from Hebrews, which is in the new Testament. So almost at the end of your Bible, chapter eight, verse 12: “for I will be merciful toward their iniquities. And I will remember their sins no more.”

And again, to me, that's very powerful because as forgetful as I am, sometimes I find it easy to remember both my sins as well as the sins of others. So this section is calling us to admit or to realize, or to really internalize that God does not remember our sins. So my question around that is how do we go about modeling god's love for us by not remembering our sins? And so again, we'll be talking a little bit about forgiveness in an upcoming episode.

For a lot of people that's a very hard thing to do.  And again, I'm not telling you, you should forgive everyone immediately for all the wrong that has been done to you. And we've talked about this actually in the past as well, but can we forgive someone and still say, this situation is wrong, we need to change it? We need to protect other people we need to do what's right.

And I also invite each of you as you have time and access to check out different translations. I often list exactly which translation I use, usually at the beginning of an episode, when we just have one passage or one verse. And today there's a few different translations that I'm not specifically referencing, but I want to encourage you either with physical Bibles that you have, there's online apps that you can just tap which translation do you want to see, and sort of compare the different types of language. There's also websites where you can do the same. I typically read from the new revised standard version or the new international version.

One of my favorites is the message version. And my most recent purchased Bible is called the inclusive version, where God is only ever referred to as God, not as he, and there's other examples instead of mankind, it consistently says humankind. So wanting to just invite you to spend as much time as you have, or as you wish to create, to take a look at different translations.

One question that I'd also like to invite you to consider is how is it that we remember God in our day-to-day lives? I asked, do we sometimes forget about God, and then the inverse of that is at what point do we really remember God? Do we remember God right when we first wake up in the morning, do we remember God, especially in the beauty of creation or animals, do we thank God or talk to God or pray as we sort of go through our day, just in the ordinary three things or in a beautiful sunset?

Anyway, not to sort of limit your list to those things, but that's just a question for our consideration, separate from, do we forget God is really specifically when do we remember God? How do we remember God?

I'd also like to invite you to consider, in what ways is it tempting to worship things or people other than God? And how does that feel? How's that working out for us? We keep talking about keeping up with the Joneses and comparing ourselves to the Joneses who probably have a lot of money. Apparently, these particular Joneses that we're talking about, but is it fulfilling? Does it feel good? Sometimes we self-medicate with shopping or looking at other people's lives, maybe on social media and things like that. So in contemporary times we might not be worshiping the idols referenced in this Bible passage Baal and Asherah, but what other ways can we turn away from God and towards something else?

 Our final passage from Isaiah today is from chapter 43, verse 18. “Do not remember the former things or consider the things of old.” 

And to my understanding, this is talking about our sentiment of the good old days or nostalgia, wishing that things weren't the way they are now and wishing that they were the way they were in the past. And I also want to acknowledge that we are at the end now of a very difficult year for many people, a year of pandemic and great sorrow, death and loss, and lots and lots of changes in our day to day living. So I actually want to just honor that I wish that things are back to the way they were before COVID too, but I'm referring to a persistent sense of even before COVID.

You know, maybe some people thought, Oh, you know, the world's no good. I wish it was the way things were in the olden days. Just this always looking backwards to the past and not being in the present. How is that helping us? And yeah, maybe there's some things about the past that were good. Of course.

I'm not saying that it wasn't. But are we being called to move forward into God's future? Instead of always looking back to the past. Now we have also been called, though, which I had read earlier, to remember God's promises and to remember how God has delivered us in the past, both individually and as a faith body.

So in that sense, I don't want to be talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm just taking different verses from the Bible and kind of exploring this topic of remembering and forgetting. So are there some things that are helpful to remember? Are there some things that might not be helpful if we're spending so much time remembering how things used to be and lamenting that they're not this way and doing everything in our power to try to get things, to be the way they used to be again, instead of just facing what we have now, and you know, maybe it's okay to try to want to have things be in the past? But if it's not going to be that way, if it can't be that way anymore, then how can we be at peace in our souls with what is, and perhaps what is to come? 

So I have two more verses around this theme of what to remember and what to forget in Philippians. This is in the new Testament. So towards the end of your Bible, chapter three, verse 13. “Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own, but this one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead.”

So that's one example of letting the past be the past. And for some people they're just as happy to have the past be the past. Not everybody is dwelling in a sense of nostalgia of wishing that things could be the way they used to be. But this is an example of living into God's calling for the present as well as for the future.

And in the book of Acts, which is also in the new Testament right after the four gospels. Acts chapter 20 verse 35 says: “in all this, I have given you an example that by such work, we must support the weak remembering the words of the Lord Jesus. For he himself said it is more blessed to give than to receive.”

So we are remembering the words of Jesus and also remembering the poor, the weak, the downtrodden, the oppressed. That Jesus spoke for them, that it's all too easy to forget, or sort of ignore or gloss over other people who we may not come into regular contact with.

And we're called to care for those who are in need very clearly. So we have so many invitations here in all of this material. We have all kinds of invitations to remember and all kinds of invitations to forget. And I would love to have your comments and your questions about these matters. I know that we can't have just a group chat all at the same time. Like if we were sitting around a table having a Bible study, but I really enjoy conversation. And so you're welcome on the 40 minutes of faith Facebook page to leave a comment about this study.  Each week, I post the new study on the Facebook page, just so that people can have quick access depending on if you're subscribing already or not. There's also a comment section on the 40 minutes of faith.com website.

And also just to invite your personal journaling in any way that is comfortable for you. Some people just love to write in a notebook or a paper journal on these questions. Some people just ponder them in their hearts, like it says that Mary did at the annunciation, just, you're washing dishes or vacuuming or something like that. And it's an invitation also to think creatively. It's much easier for me to remember God and to be in a worshipful mindset when I'm listening to music. That is for me, faith-based Christian, that's praise music, and sometimes it's fine and I'm happy if it's peppy. And sometimes it's very consoling to me also, if it's not particularly peppy, if it's maybe more solemn or just quieter. Sometimes I listen on YouTube for a while, and then it just kind of scrolls through a whole bunch of different songs or artists.

And some people have visual reminders around their space- could be something hanging on the wall or something in their vehicle or on their phones. So what are different ways that can help us to remember, to keep our focus? If that's something that will help to further our walk with God, our faith journey, our relationship with spiritual matters?  Because it seems to me that the loudest voices and maybe not actual human voices, but just everything that is being brought into our lives, whether it's on screen or just the thoughts in our mind, keeping busy, I need to do this. I need to do that. I need to do the other thing.

How are we carving out time? And that's going to be another subject that we're going to be talking about in an upcoming episode is how can we integrate God into every minute of every day? And then how can we set aside time? Because some folks do go to church on Sunday mornings or participate in different types of faith events throughout the week could be Bible study or whatever. There's different opportunities now, especially online. And then for some folks that's not part of their regular practice. So we're going to be talking about setting aside time for God, very intentionally. And that really wasn't a direct question as part of the Isaiah study, but it's related. Because I find that when I'm doing a Bible study and there's a homework assignment and I have every day, a few pages that I need to be looking up Bible verses and answering questions that really helps me to focus. And then when I'm not in a Bible study, I'm struggling a little bit more on how to carve out that intentional time when I need to go to the grocery store and I need to, Oh, I just remembered. I need to call the eye doctor again. Do you know what I mean? So you're not alone if this is something that you are still working on, carving out that time.

And if you already have that time, you're welcome to drop that in the comments, if you could share what has been effective for you. I know that many people get up early in the morning and they have that quiet time with their Bibles or with any other kind of faith development tool, their journals, their prayer journals, just times of prayer. And then some folks I know are just busy running around, taking care of what needs to be taken care of.

I'm just going to summarize. God does not forget us. And that is just so very, very important. So if you want to remember times when you felt forgotten, was there ever a time after that when you didn't feel forgotten anymore or do you still feel forgotten now? In other words, how did you come back to a sense of God's love in your life? And that might not be yet, but that's really the message that I am praying that people will hear not to always wear, you know, Rose tinted glasses. I know that for some folks, just this whole looking back can be painful, looking back at some of the experiences that you've had. But is there a way to sometimes look back and see any good that came out of a situation that may have seemed really awful at the time, or it may really have been very awful.

So, God does not forget us. Do we forget God? And how do we remember God?

God does not remember our sins, and the possibility that we hold onto our sins or the sins of others, even more tightly than we need to, or even at all. And we've got Bible verses and there's way more too, I could spend the whole 40 minutes just reading Bible verses about all of these topics. So if you have a Bible with a topical index, maybe in the back that would talk about forgetting or remembering, of course, there's so many other places where this concept is referenced or even forgiveness. 

Then we have a question about what is it that we are to remember and what is it that we are to forget? We have remembering God's faithfulness to us as well as forgetting the good old days in terms of not spending all our time and emotional energy yearning for those times. And then we also have the concept of God loves us like a loving parent.

And finally, I have one study to recommend to you that was previously recommended in another podcast episode.  For some of us, during church services, we routinely hear three or four different Bible passages every Sunday, depending on what sort of tradition you've been attending. So some churches hear a passage from the old Testament, from the Hebrew scripture every week, and some churches don't do that.

And so I want to recommend the study “Seamless” to you by Angie Smith, because that particular study really makes it so clear the history of God's people and God's faithfulness despite many different, I don't know what you want to call them? Detours, Priscilla Shirer calls them, speed bumps or, you know, bumps in the road on your way of life, and you go in a different direction. So I'm sure there are many other studies to recommend, but that's just the one that I have firsthand experience with on talking about the history of God's faithfulness, not only among our biblical ancestors, but also how can we apply that to our own everyday lives?

Thank you for your time today. I pray for your faith journeys for all of our faith journeys as we encounter the spiritual growth opportunities that are before us, as well as the day-to-day necessities of life that keep us busy.  And finding ways of remembering God during busy seasons of life, as well as during quiet times.

And how can we encourage each other in our faith journeys? Looking forward to your comments and questions, and also stay tuned for some upcoming episodes about the topic of remembering, forgetting, and forgiveness.

Resources:

Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg Fortress)

Isaiah 49:15

Deuteronomy 8:14

Judges 3:7

Isaiah 43:25

Psalm 103:8-12

Hebrews 8:12

Isaiah 43:18

Philippians 3:13

Acts 20:35

Seamless by Angie Smith

Marianne about music during pandemic

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's guest is Marianne Gould, and our topic is church during pandemic. I met Marianne at Wartburg theological seminary, where we are both students. She's been Lutheran most of her life, although Marianne has also served as an organist and or choir director at Methodist and Presbyterian churches over the years. After 27 years of service in public education, teaching in band, elementary music and choir, she retired in 2005. Maryanne's husband likes to say that she flunked out of retirement since she now has a part-time job as director of music ministry at Peace Lutheran Church in New Braunfels, Texas, as well as being a seminary student in order to become a deacon in the Evangelical Lutheran church of America with specialization in worship and music. Marianne has lived in Texas nearly all her life and currently lives in central Texas, halfway between San Antonio and Austin. Now that she has had both of her vaccines, Marianne is hopeful that she can spoil her grandkids in person. Welcome, Marianne. How are things in Texas for you these days?

Marianne: today is bright, sunny and warm, not too hot, not too cold. Just goldilocks bear time.

Barbara: Nice. So today's Bible verse is from Psalm 95. I'm going to read just the first verse from the new revised standard version. And we've been in Psalms for a little bit now, and it's just before the middle of your Bible. So just a little to the left of center.

“Oh, come let us sing to the Lord. Let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.”

This verse has been set to music many ways in several different Lutheran denominations, including the LCMS, the ELCA, and I believe also in at least one Episcopal setting. Thanks for selecting this first for us today. Marianne, what are some of the many different ways you have seen and heard people make a joyful noise to God?

Marianne: During COVID times there's been a lot more expressions because we've been forced into it. One of the things that I particularly like about this verse is that it says joyful noise- it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be able to carry a tune or that you have to sing beautifully like a bird, but to lift your voice in praise to God is just the utmost joy that I can imagine in worship- to give praise to God for everything that God has given us and all the ways that we can praise him. 

And one of the groups that I lead at Peace Lutheran Church is called jubilant praise. And it's not about us being wonderful, great musicians, or being able to go out on the road on tour anytime. But it is about us when we sing God's praises on a Sunday morning or whatever time that we sing that we joyfully sing together and give praise to God in these COVID times. Singing has turned out to be one of those things that is not safe for us. And so that was extremely hard for me to take as a person, plus, as a person who leads worship in songs,

And fortunately for a while, we were able to continue in small groups with masks and we could still lead worship with a very minimal number of people in the sanctuary, and we did live streaming services. So that was one way that we continue to be able to sing. The biggest challenge for me in this COVID times is the ever changing landscape, if you will, about what the local politicians or the CDC says this group said, or that group said we continually had to make changes on the fly almost on a weekly basis.

Barbara: Exactly. And I won't deny it. The grief, frankly, that many people felt at not being able to come together inside the doors of our familiar churches, but there are still ways of making a joyful noise.

But what I am pretty sure I heard you say is that God is not calling people to take voice lessons. I mean, unless you want to, if that brings you joy and you have that accessible to you somehow, of course, by all means, go ahead. But that God hears our joyful praise even if we didn't take voice lessons or we're not professional opera singers.

Marianne: So true, Barbara- it doesn't make any difference whether you carry a tune or not. If you have a smile on your face and a joy in your heart that you're willing to share with all of those in worship with you, then that's what's really important. And I did mourn quite a lot the last Sunday, I remember that we were able to sing in person. I knew it was the last Sunday because the week coming up, I knew that parameters had changed and that we would not be allowed to sing in person anymore. And I left the sanctuary in tears that day.

 As soon as the last time was over. I had to leave because I didn't want everybody to see me doing ugly cry thing. But it is all about the joy. It was a struggle to find a new way to worship and to praise God.

Barbara: Yes. And I do think also that it's fair to say we have different gifts and we do still practice. But that's not judging. That's not us saying you have to earn your way to salvation by being a good musician, but that we practice so that our joyful noise to the Lord can be put together a little bit. And if there's a rest that we're resting at the same time, or if there's harmony.  I don't mean to just say sing whatever you want and who cares, what it sounds like, although in the shower.

Marianne: you're absolutely right. I know God understands that some of the days that you were not making as preparedness and some of the others. We knew that because we didn't do as well as what we would have liked to have done, but I know that God received that.

And the people listening in the congregation were blessed by hearing God's witness the proclamation of the gospel in songs, so that made it worthwhile.

Barbara: And I also believe that God hears different cultural praises. In a unique way. When I was in Texas, actually on a school course, I had the opportunity to participate in a funeral for an individual. And the family had brought in a mariachi band and I found out that that's actually customary and not unusual. I had never seen it before. But the other students, and I actually really enjoyed that.

And we could tell that band was singing about, I understood just a few words, kind of here and there, but about memories and about sadness and about joy. And I thought I would really like to have a mariachi band play at my funeral, but my question for you is about different cultural sort of understandings.

Do you have any observations about people's idea of what joyful sounds like that might be different from how another culture or people think about as celebratory music?

Marianne: one of the things that I appreciate most about  Lutheran book of worship, and also the new hymnal supplement that's come out all creation sayings is if there's any inclusion of so many songs from various cultures yes, we all in different cultures celebrate and lament in different ways, but they all hold a richness that connects us to God through different channels in different ways and different words, but it's all in God.

And so I think that by Our singing and praising God in other languages, the best that we can, that we're actually showing our love of God for all people and not just for this group or for that group. And I love listening to mariachi music in worship. You know, w there's a setting seven that's all in Spanish.

And so my group a couple of times a year would sing that setting. And we brought in a mariachi group that I gave them all the music and we just had a fantastic celebration. Yeah.

Barbara: And even the flute music that you recorded it for us when the podcast first started. And it's often at the beginning of a podcast episode. The way we were brought up introduces into our minds a certain way of music or tones of music. And we might think certain music is kind of sad and maybe somebody else doesn't think it's sad at all, So that's why I brought that up on it to say, thank you to you for that. And to honor that there's no one right way, at least that I'm thinking of, maybe other people think there's one right way,

Marianne: That's one of the kind of nice, wonderful things about music is it, there is no one right way. For instance, in the native American music, because their history in this particular country has had so much mournfulness in it with the colonialism, that many of their songs are very lament filled, but they also include their songs of joy. Or who had hunts and the good harvest. So it's not strictly that, but sometimes the experiences of a particular culture bring a certain richness and lament or joy into their surroundings because of their culture and through their music. And so that is a way that they can express in music and words, things that they maybe couldn't express as well in a speaking manner.

Barbara: Exactly. And we also have had to make some unexpected adjustments. You and I saw each other 13 months ago, last February, and we had no idea how drastically things would change. How has your church adjusted worship services, especially music in the light the last year?

Marianne: we were very fortunate as a church that we were already doing the live stream worship. And so we had some experience with that, but some of the churches in our neighborhood did not. And so we shared with them and until they were able to see how things work and got equipment of their own and started out on their own. Unfortunately during the really cold spell a couple of weeks ago, our church was damaged. With the cold weather, our fire suppression system froze up and burst the little nozzles on the end of it and dumped a half inch of water all over our entire building.

And so now we are the ones that are going to their church, even though we certainly didn't ask them, but they're allowing us to do live streaming worship services with their congregation. And so it's been a very interesting time to not only be shut out from music, but also to be shut out from the building.

And we do still have a parking lot worship out front, and have an FM system worked out. And we've done three recording services for our Lenten services this year and for Christmas Eve and Easter as well. But we're just having to adjust and all of us are learning the technical side of worship that we never thought we'd have to learn.

And it’s frankly not even a course that they teach in seminary. So everybody's like the first year out preacher, trying to decide, how do we make this transition into the digital space for worship?

Barbara: Exactly. And people might not think a half an inch of water is that big of a deal. Cause when it's in a puddle or in a bathtub, it doesn't seem like a lot, but when it's covering your carpeting or your hymnals…

Marianne: we do not have pews. We've had chairs, so that has been wonderful. And our piano and organ were far enough away from the sprinklers that they were not damaged. Many blessings have come from this- everyone has been very nice.  For our Easter services and our prerecorded, a neighboring Presbyterian church is letting us use their sanctuary and their piano and their rehearsal space for our rehearsals and the taping since we don't have ours available. So the ecumenical Christian community steps up and it's just been such a wonderful time to receive blessings. And we're very grateful for all of those people that are showing God's love in their gifts, giving us space to worship.

Barbara: Yes. And even more so, this is an example of the church isn't only the physical space because a lot of people said, well, the church is closed, but maybe the physical building had to close for safety reasons for a period of months. But the church isn't just the building. And even now, if people are looking on their screen, they're going to say, Hey, that's not even my church, but thank you for the generosity of a neighboring church. And we get familiar and we get really comfortable and it might look different, but we're still praising God.

Marianne: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's been one of the blessings of COVID in our flood in the church is the fact that church has had to reinvigorate itself to reform itself. And to question. What are we doing? And is it really praising God? Or is it just routine? Because we did it this way for years and years and years. And so I'm so excited about the many ways that church has evolved into being real disciples of Jesus and following Jesus’ way, instead of just doing things like my mother and grandmother and great-grandmother did.

Barbara: I enjoy talking about positive developments, but I also really want to honor that for some people, even you and I have been grieving during this process. And I'm wondering was the ministry team creative in any way to help people with that process of grief? Most places don't address it, but I just was curious to help people in the faith community mourn the sorrow amidst some of the hopeful blessings?

Marianne: Absolutely. We've had several healing services. We've had different venues online where we could go and just have an open conversation. I keep in touch with the group that are singers and instrumentalists weekly. And the first part of every session we talk about what's going in your life, what are you struggling with this week? What are your joys this week? And then we rehearse some new songs. So be ready whenever we do get to be together and sing together again.

Barbara: That's a really neat way of honoring the need.  I love to watch worship services online. I don't have any problem with it, but part of most people's experience is just a little bit of social time. It's often called coffee hour, but it doesn't have to be called coffee hour.  A lot of faith communities have made meals together or special events, and that hasn't been able to happen, either. So it sounds like even just intentional time to be social for a few minutes or networking or whatever you want to call it.

Marianne: yes. This year we're doing a Seder meal and inviting people in and talking about the meal itself and not only say the prayers with us, but to learn about the different parts of the Seder meal and to go into breakout groups and talk about how they think that is a positive or how they see that in the role of Jesus in his sacrament. And so I think it'll be a really neat way for us to connect and stay connected in a meal situation during Holy week.

Barbara: Oh, that sounds really terrific. And I also want to honor that I suspect in some ways it feels like a whole lot more work. Even if people aren't necessarily going into the church office. I mean, it was never a 40 hour week anyway, from nine to five, sitting behind a desk. But I know from our colleagues and just from friends, especially the learning curve. I don't know if it's sort of settled into a routine, but I just want to say, thank you to the whole team that I know that there's a lot of work involved with this addiction communication, because maybe some folks have more access.

Now I can be in 10 different church services all around the world in one day, if I want to be. But some people put together bulletins or really comprehensive electronic presentations, not everybody does that. And then also trying to reach out to people who don't have a lot of online connectivity either who might feel isolated.

Marianne: That's so true. That's one of the things that we have tried to be very intentional about is making sure that people in our congregation who are not connected by digital means to be able to touch base with them by phone or by stopping in their front yard and talking from afar or ways that we can keep in touch with them and make sure that they know that their congregation is still thinking about them and praying for them.

Barbara: Have there been any moments of laughter despite all of these stressful things that we're going through with your church team?

Marianne: We occasionally do have fun and laugh and it feels really good. One staff meeting, we were all sitting around on our zoom platform. And we started making our faces using the filters and putting on ears and noses, and it was near Christmas. And so we'd put on our Christmas hats or reindeer horns or whatever.

And then we took a picture of that and showed it on our Facebook page or the church got a big tickle out of it. And everybody got a big laugh. So it was worth every bit.

Barbara: Very nice. Are there any innovations that you might keep that were new from this time that we didn't have a choice about, but that might be a choice in the future? 

Marianne: One of the things that has worked out really well, we have a deacon in our church that is in faith formation. And one of the things that he instigated is what we call grace place on Saturday mornings for children, young adults, and he has his office set up like a movie studio and they sing songs and they tell Bible stories and they talk. And the really nice thing about it is the kids can be in their home.

So you don't have to bother mom and dad to take them someplace to have youth group , they can be in their home where they're under the eye of mom and dad, but they're still learning about God and it's just worked out really well. Bishop Sue Briner from our district has come in and she's been our guest one time.

And then occasionally, we have a guest guitar player or someone that comes in and talks about grief with kids and ways you can deal with grief. And a couple of weeks ago, I got to be the guest. And so I was talking about during the really cold weather, what was happening in their homes and how they adjusted and took care of schoolwork or took care of the snow or making sure that they were being good stewards of God's creation and everything. And I hope that that stays around. We've also been able to do a Bible study with people that maybe wouldn't get out late at night because it's already dark and they don't want to drive, and now they're in their homes on their computer, we can discuss the Bible verses or the Bible books and different concepts and not have to worry about driving late at night. So that's been a very much of a plus.

Barbara: Lovely. Thank you for those examples. I do feel like despite the stress and sorrow of this disruption in our expectations, for many people, it's comforting experience of worship. Like you said, it's always been this way and now we're doing things in a new way because we have to. But what if there's something that we can keep, and I agree with you, lots of parents are driving their kids all over the place or have been in the past morning, noon and night for different activities.

So I bet a lot of kids will be really happy to get together again. But what if there is a way to keep people more connected? And my Bible studies all went online too, and it's just not the same as sitting around a table, but I'd rather have an online Bible study than no Bible study at all.

Marianne: That's for sure. 

Barbara: I am wondering Marianne, if you received any advice around how to handle the stress and forced creativity that you and your team have really been juggling, all these new ways of doing things. Did anybody share wisdom with you or the team about taking care of your own physical and emotional needs?

Marianne: Oh, absolutely. I feel very fortunate because I have a spiritual director who is very much aware of listening for clues that I gave her when we're in discussion. And I also have a very good deacon mentor who is also helping me say, how much time are you giving for yourself?

I also have an extremely good lay internship committee. Cause I'm on internship this semester. And they are always asking me, what are you doing for yourself? How is your balance in your life? And that is always been really helpful because as someone who wants to serve, I all too often will serve rather than take care of self.

Barbara: My experience has been that it's all in my head. I understand it conceptually. And then sometimes making it happen is a different story. And that's sort of my impression from so many people who just like you said, want to serve.

So then making it happen might be different from understanding that it needs to happen. And even the concept of Sabbath , do you have any specific examples?

Marianne: One of the things that my spiritual director has requested that I do is start my day, since music is such a big part of my life, I am to listen to a piece of music that brings me joy and it can have nothing to do with church music or school music.

But it's helped focus me on that, believe it or not. One of the other things that I have been able to use to get ideas and to get my creative juices going, is Facebook unbelievably enough, but there are so many groups out there of Lutheran church musicians and association of Lutheran church musicians and Episcopal musicians.

And Presbyterian musicians and Methodists, and we all just chat- what I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think, I'm having trouble with this? Can I find a piece in this key, it looks like, and everybody is so helpful and it has really been a blessing. Who just thought that on Facebook, but to find different people that also share your passion for music and worship and also for the creative spirit and wonderful ways to meet and greet and share God.

Barbara: So optional homework assignment, and I suppose it doesn't have to be music, but I think music connects with a lot of people, even if you're not a church musician or to either start your day off, listening to a piece of music that seems to be positive in nature. Joyful is the word that you used, and peer support also. And then to know that it's okay to take Sabbath, that that's part of our faith routine as well. And service is important, but Jesus had Sabbath also.

Marianne: Indeed. And we kind of forget that, but Jesus did take breaks and he did go off and pray by himself. And one of the things that I do for me is contemplative prayer. I have two different groups that I belong to faithfully and then Wartburg has started one this semester. So now I have three- one of them is a group of ladies that I have prayed with, for over 10 years, which is just wonderful. And we started a group of ecumenical  contemplative prayer that we meet once a month with people from all different faiths and from all different States.

And now with zoom, we meet once a month and you have some thought to God in their lives and being quiet, listening for what God has in mind for us, without us telling God what we'd like to do.

Barbara: Very nice. Thank you so much. And one question that I like to ask as we're talking about accessibility and connectivity is whose voice is missing from this conversation about pandemic disrupted worship and music? And how can we reach out to listen and to invite and encourage people who might be feeling left out?

Marianne: One of the things that I have thought about that Is the people on the margins, they may be margins due to their ethnicity. They may be margins because of their job. I think about the people in hospitals that work with doctors and nurses, and COVID patients, who empty the trash and sweep the floors and mop the floors and all those things that get pushed back to the edges of life, and the people in the grocery stores, who stock the shelves and unload the trucks and carry your groceries out to the car. And we have a tendency to just pull our blinders over and hardly even speak to him and say, thank you.

So I've really tried to not only lift those up, but to speak to people when I come in contact with them and say, thank you for what you're doing. And I know they don't often get very much thank you. But even the teachers that stand in front of those kids on a day-to-day basis, learning brand new things in order to try to keep parents still working and children still engaged in their studies.

Gosh, what a job they have to do. I mean, I don't know these days and times, so there's so many people that are really helpers that are in the margins. And my challenge to anybody would be to find at least two or three people every day when you leave your house, supplying those people that are on the margins and tell them, thank you for what you do.

Barbara: There's an optional homework assignment. That's highly recommended. And at first, when you were talking, I was thinking there's so many people who have to work on Sunday mornings. Even my husband is a reservist and sometimes when church services are in-person only, they're often traditionally held on Sunday mornings.

And some people just have to work. It's not an option for them, from medical or cleaning or stores. I mean, you could say I'm not going to work on Sunday mornings, but you can't say that when you're in the military, in the reserves and other people would be putting their jobs at risk.

And then you broaden the circle, even not just to people who are working Sunday mornings, if you worked overnight, you need to sleep. Or if you're just exhausted from everything that's going on. Hopefully these online services or Bible studies, allow people to watch the recording later at their own convenience, even though it's not the same thing as being in person, but how are we showing love to our neighbors in many different ways, even by thanking them.

Marianne: That is so true. I think that the churches who can manage something besides the Sunday morning, everybody does it at nine or 10 or 10 30 in the morning. The more we can accommodate people for the job they're doing these days, the more true you're being to Christ's message that you meet them where they are. And if they're not able to be there with you, then you go to them.

Barbara: Is there any kind of elephant in the room, Marianne, as we're talking about church and pandemic and music and worship and making adjustments during this time of disruption?

Marianne:  One thing that I'm a little fearful of is that when we are allowed to go back to in-person and worship as we used to, I'm afraid that it may be easier to be the status quo without really investigating what things did we do during the pandemic that we're feeding the people in our congregation, what they needed and and do the ministry that we're called to do.

And so I'm hopeful that when we come back together it will be very intentional about offering Jesus and in ways that will be engaging with the public and all of our people, not just some of our people in our congregation.

Barbara: That's right. So having ways to reach as many people as possible in different ways. And I suspect that innovation has often been a point of contention in some places, although it seems to me like other places are just all about innovation and that's appealing for some and maybe less appealing for others, but how do we balance new things for people in different ways and then discerning what to keep?

Marianne: exactly. That balance is a little hard sometimes. Oftentimes Lutherans say, well, if we didn't do it like that for the last five years, we're not doing it like that now. Be flexible, I think is one thing, and adaptable. If you're not gonna be flexible and adapt, then you're going to get left behind. That's just all there is to it.

The world has moved into a new age of digital worship and digital engagement with each other. There's some negative aspects to that, but we have to move with the culture. And I want the church to be up on the front lines, leading the charge.

Barbara: And we've talked about accessibility for some folks who may not have as much connectivity for online and digital activities. But I really believe in my heart that there also are accessibility issues when there are only in-person services. And we talked a little bit about work schedules, but even people feeling welcome.

I know that people have been curious about these different types of online churchy kinds of things, and have checked things out that they might not want to walk through the door because in all honesty is everyone really welcome everywhere? And I want the answer to be yes, with every fiber of my being, but I don't think that the answer is yes.

I don't think that everyone is welcome everywhere, even if we want them to be welcomed, because we're sinful humans. And sometimes our behavior isn't as welcoming as it could be. Or maybe people just kind of have the impression, Oh, these kinds of people go into this building. And I'm not one of those kinds of people.

And is it going to be more work maybe for the team? So if you have all these in-person services and then you also do a digital service, there might be people who don't want recording devices in the sanctuary during an in-person service.

Marianne: Yeah.

Barbara: It could go in any direction or then do you do a whole separate recording session just for the online stuff? I don't mean to keep raising up questions that we don't have the answers for, but just to point out , emotional accessibility is one thing, even physical accessibility you had mentioned sometimes evenings driving at night. That zoom has worked out really well for some people, and I know that most churches have spent a great deal of money to make the facilities accessible in terms of ramps and stairs. But  we've certainly been doing plan B for long enough now. We can see that it is effective in some cases.

Did you have any new musicians since last March? I didn't mean for this to be the anniversary recording, but I'm pretty sure I've talked about the pandemic during every single recording, but I haven't done a recording sort of about it until now, just by coincidence. Is there anyone who's gotten involved who might not have been involved before?

Marianne: There absolutely is- when I taught my sacred drumming class. I had four people join the class because they said I may not be able to sing, but I can make a joyful noise. They brought their drums and we dove in together and learned rhythms together.

During Christmas Eve, trying to plan a vocal service behind masks, where we could sing three songs. I just put a blanket statement out there- if you'd like to sing for this service come and we're going to have rehearsal Wednesday night and Saturday, so that there were two times if they couldn't make one rehearsal, they could make another one. And it came off. We had about four different new people that had not sung with our group before. It was wonderful to see new life coming, and one person even walked in off our parking lot worship and said, I've played with the United States Marine band. Do you have a place where I can play? Have I got a place for you? That's great. Being able to use it. It's a challenge and is gifts in worship. We used them at Christmas or we're going to use them again at Easter.

Barbara: glad you did those parking lot services. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Marianne. I appreciate all of the dedication of you and your team during these times. And thank you for the flute music that we've been listening to all these months, too.

Marianne: I enjoyed it very much.

Resources:

Psalm 95:1

Malta with Ken

Barbara:  Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God today's guest is Kenneth Dimmick. I should say the Reverend. When you get to kind of know clergy and it's okay to call them by their first name, but I still want to be respectful.

Our topic today is Malta and pilgrimages in general. I met Ken when I lived in Germany and a church group went on a pilgrimage to Malta. Ken is a lifelong Episcopalian with many diverse experiences, including Bible studies in dorm rooms at college, general Protestant chapel in the Army, charismatic movement in the 1970s, high Anglo Catholic seminary, missionary work in Bolivia, Japan, and Germany, prison ministry and preschool chaplain. He loves the symbolism of smells and bells, which let's explain that to folks in a minute. Ken, welcome- how are things for you these days in Germany?

Ken: Well, it snowed four times today. Never enough to accumulate, but it's still winter time.

Barbara: I know what you mean when you said smells and bells-

Ken: When you have an Episcopal service, that's quite a lot of ritual. There will often be incense used. And then they ring the bells to symbolize various things. And for the people who know what it means, it's very helpful to engage all the senses in worship, not just your brain, but your eyes, your nose, your mouth, your ears, everything is worshiping God at the same time.

Barbara: the incense I know for sure is in the Bible. I don't know when bells in worship were introduced, but I went to a Catholic junior high school and they had little bells that were shaken around communion time.

Ken: It's when the words of institution are said. It's actually a vestige of Byzantine ceremonial from the court of the emperor of Rome. And they said, well, if it's good enough for the emperor of Rome, it's even better for the King of heaven. And so a lot of Byzantine court rituals were incorporated into old fashioned Catholic liturgy.

Barbara: Thank you for that explanation. Our Bible verse today is from the gospel of Matthew chapter 17. So if you're following along, the gospels are just past the halfway mark in your Bible. And I'm going to read chapter 17, verse one:

“six days later, Jesus took with him, Peter and James and his brother, John, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them and his face shone like the sun and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with him.”

 Ken, what does this verse mean to you?

Ken: Well, it means a lot. It's the transfiguration. And it's a particularly appropriate thing to read right now because when he came down from the mountain top, after the transfiguration, he set his sights on Jerusalem, where he went, arriving on Palm Sunday and resulting in the crucifixion on good Friday and Easter.

So as we're halfway through Lent, we're on the way with Jesus to Jerusalem. So in one sense, we are pilgrims right now with Jesus as he makes his way towards the salvation of the world, through his death and resurrection. But the idea that you go to a mountain top, or that you go with your friends on a journey, these are also important images which have shaped me into a person who loves to put together pilgrimages and travel groups for Holy and religious purposes.

And when I talk about a pilgrimage, this is what I'm saying. We're following in the footsteps of Jesus to a destination, with an intention of prayer and worship and fellowship.

Barbara: I have some photos to share with folks who are able to watch this on YouTube. How did Malta come up?

Ken: this was our fourth pilgrimage when we went to Malta and each year I go to a different place and I try to find something of historical importance and biblical interest and spiritual. I was offered a temporary job in Malta and I said, Hmm, what if the pilgrimage comes to me? I asked one of the local people in Malta- they all said, well, Paul- don't you remember in the book of acts, when St. Paul had been arrested, they were taking him to Rome and they got caught in a storm and they sought shelter on the Island of Malta? And they pulled into the harbor there and they brought him ashore and he was there for about three months.

The Maltese people have remembered the fact that they had St. Paul come and visit and bring Christianity to their Island. And it's in the Bible. It's like a chapter and a half. It's not a big story, but it's telling. And it was memorable to those people who live on the soil where St. Paul brought them the gospel, where they know where he lived, where he stayed, they know the name of his first convert.

And maybe half the churches in Malta are dedicated to St. Paul one way or another- there's even one that's St. Paul's shipwreck, which is a funny name for a church. But when they got into Malta, the storm was so bad, they didn't really just pull up to a dock, they got thrown onto the rocks and they were shipwrecked on a particular Island as their ungracious, welcome to Malta.

But anyway, we decided I'll do the pilgrimage and we'll try to go to as many places in Malta that have a reference to St. Paul as possible. And it turned out to be quite easy. We could have easily done another week. It was a challenge for me to try to find out what to eliminate because we just couldn't do it all. But we stayed very busy the week we were there, we shared lots of things to see.

Barbara: And we were on the water a lot. So I wanted to show this photo of us on a boat. And this boat's a little unique. You can see cruise ships and other, probably industrial boats in the background, but this one was made out of wood.

And for those of you who are able to look at the photo, there's even a Maltese cross on the wood, right on the boat. Probably to tie up some ropes. It fit about 10 people or so, and I just was curious, Ken, if you had a chance to ever get to meet or get to talk with some folks whose livelihoods depended on the water on this Island nation?

Ken: Well, there's not a lot of industry in Malta, but tourism is a big one. And when they get off the big white boat this boat in the distance, they swarm all over the Island. And you take these little taxi boats to get over to various bits and pieces.

It looks rather like a Venetian gondola. That's the kind of boat we were on and they just roll across and some have a little gasoline motors. But it's a very protected Harbor and the waves are never very big. And I found myself any day I had nothing to do. I just take a taxi ride on the boat just because the water is the life of the Island and for the fishing, the tourism from time immemorial, this is how people have survived. The waters of Malta are crystal clear and turquoise blue. And if you get white sand on the bottom of the water and the sunshine, it's just like you have a jewel in your hand. It's just unbelievable and beautiful.

Barbara: I'm glad you mentioned the sand, because pilgrimages are not necessarily the same thing as a vacation. And you had hinted at that a few minutes ago, but I just wanted to check in when you're designing a pilgrimage, how is it different from what folks might think of as a typical vacation?

Ken: Pilgrimage is as an intention of being with God through the whole thing. Not some Christians do this, even in their vacations. They just are very spiritual people. And they're always aware of the presence of God. We visit the churches. They always do these Holy things, but most people when they're on a vacation, they think they're trying to get away.

On a Pilgrimage we'll start every day by gathering for morning prayer. We'll try to eat breakfast together. We'll have directed conversations sometimes during the day. And then we end every day with the compline service in the hotel where we're staying, where we can be together. We can discuss what we saw and sort of try to dissect, digest everything.

I would work as the program leader of purposely having us pass by things which would stimulate spiritual thinking. You want to make it fun because frankly, I'll say this as a priest, being with God should be enjoyable. If we're going to spend eternity with God, let's just assume it's going to be pleasant. It's going to be fun. It's going to be great. So why not practice enjoying the presence of God in a beautiful touristic place?

Barbara: And some people might even argue that God has a sense of humor. While to other people that might sound like kind of a strange thing to say. And do we have room for what you just said, an attitude of joy and playfulness. Sometimes that doesn't come across in our earthly institutions.

Ken: when I was studying in seminary, our professor would ask different people to read the lesson. And he said, how you read it will interpret to the listener, what you think the meaning is. And somebody would get up there and they'd put on their God voice and they would talk like some big Hollywood production.

The next one would get up there and just read it sort of normal. And then he would get up and read it as if it were sort of tongue in cheek. And that there was a little sarcasm here and there. Like, when Jesus said “you brood of vipers,” he said, was Jesus smiling when he said this? Or was he frowning when he said it, was he angry or was he being sarcastic? And he said, I think he was probably being jokey. He was not really that kind of an angry condemnatory person, but he would choose really strong language to capture the attention, but then sort of smile. And maybe everybody would giggle because it was so unexpected.

I liked that kind of a Jesus who says, I made you to enjoy you and I want you to enjoy you. And I want you to enjoy this creation. And while we're at it, there's plenty of work.

Barbara: And speaking of perhaps judgment, I did not take a picture of the police officer who we met outside one of these buildings in these two photos. Do you want to share that today?

Ken: We were at the cathedral in the town of Medina, which is in the middle of Malta. It's the old Capitol - the Romans built this town of Medina. So the cathedral is there and we had just finished the tour and we were sitting on the steps.

So we're set up in front of the cathedral is sort of a historical marker and the police woman came over to us and I was absolutely sure she was going to castigate us for sitting on that Canon. And the truth was she had recognized that our group was different than the other groups who'd come through. And I had on my collar, I guess I looked like a priest who we were sitting on the steps one or two on the Canon. And we were just smiling and we'd look peaceful and happy.

And she came over and she said, are you all Christians? Are you believers? And yes, yes. We're here to visit your lovely Island and this church. And she was there because she wanted to know more about the kind of faith that could bring this diverse group of people from far away and just having a good time and enjoying the beauty and the spirituality.

And we tried to answer her questions, but it clearly was one of these situations where we could witness to her for several hours and her thirst was going to be unquenchable. And so I really encouraged her to come and talk to her own clergy there from the cathedral and not to be afraid of them.

I like when a pilgrimage can reveal to us that we're not the only ones in the world who deal with issues in our lives and in our spiritual pilgrimages, sometimes going off to a strange place allows us to see them from a different angle.

Barbara: sometimes the formality of some clergy roles, maybe some people feel that they're unapproachable or maybe, I don't want to bother them. They're important, or is my concern worthy enough? Or is my simple, basic question worth their time? So that's great that you encouraged that continual seeking.

Ken: I don't think I've ever met a priest or a minister or a rabbi who wasn't flattered in a way, if someone comes up and says, I really want to talk about God with you. Do you have some time? Sometimes they'll say, well, Tuesday at four, but this is our life. We love to share what we've experienced in our theology. And questions are a source of great joy. I can't always answer them because yeah, I don't have the mind of God any better than most people do.

But I have some experiences or maybe have a few vocabulary words that are different. And I have a sense in my heart that God is never far away. And if we have really, really tough questions, don't ask the priest, let the priest with you, ask God together. And seek his wisdom.

Barbara: we have a few church stories that we could share. And in this sanctuary, Ken knew the clergy and the staff. I'm wondering if you have any particular story for us on this one, they had a cafe in their basement and this is really busy.

Ken: This picture when we're looking at it, the churches, the part on the left and apartment buildings are the fart on the right, but they do show something interesting about Malta.

The whole Island is made up of this same lime stone. It's sort of honey colored, which is where the name Malta comes from because when the Greeks discovered this Island and they saw all that honey-colored rock, they used the Greek word for honey Melita, which then got over the years, turned into Malta.

So the whole country is named honey, and it is a very sweet place. Yeah, but the tower on the left-hand side is St. Paul's Anglican. It's absolutely beautiful.

And if somebody does want to see lots of beautiful pictures of it, you can go Google St. Paul's Anglican cathedral in Malta. The town is actually called Valletta. I worked with the priests there.

In fact, the year after the pilgrimage, I went back and did three months working in this cathedral as a guest preacher and a guest a teacher. I did a Bible study course and of course did a lot of scuba diving and sitting on the sand of the beaches as well.

You mentioned the cafe in the basement and it's because they really wanted an outreach center because there are so many English speaking tourists who come to Malta and to come to the Anglican church, they can read everything and then they want to get a cup of coffee.

But we're on the suburban side of town with the Harbor right there. There's not a lot of restaurants around, so it's like an outreach to their tourist ministry to have this coffee shop down in the undercroft of the church. And it was a beautiful place. On the hot Maltese days, you can go - it was so cool inside and so nice and peaceful.

Barbara: this had been completely finished and was very relaxing. It was a respite. I really don't mind sharing that I have mixed feelings about this cathedral [new photo], the elaborate gold is of course beautiful, but it's just too much for me. And we were told that the donors wanted to honor God with all of this decor and they also took care of people in need, but I'm really wondering how can we balance luxury and stewardship on behalf of others?

Ken: Oh, that's a very heavy topic, but let me explain something about what we're looking at in this picture. This is not very much gold. This is the same honey colored limestone that's been carved into all these shapes and there's just the slightest bit of gold leaf on them. If you took all the gold in that whole building, it might be maybe one pound, you know, but it spreads so thin.

It's like gold dust on everything, but. That carves so easily because the honey limestone of Malta, you can carve it with a teaspoon. It's a very soft stone. And so it encouraged the artist to carve deeply and beautifully.

And it wasn't built as a cathedral. It was built originally as the monastery for the Knights of Malta, the religious order who were warrior monks dedicated to fighting off. The Islamic Navy of the Ottoman empire. And this church was the burial shrine for all the Knights who were killed in battle. And so it's really more than just a parish church. It's a shrine and a Memorial and yeah, it does challenge us.

Would we want this in a parish? And I would probably be over nourished by it. I would feel like I need to like put on blinders to pray, but as a shrine and as a memorial, I find it to be very interesting that the donors who did it were almost always the head monks, the superior of the order who usually came from some aristocratic family in Europe.

They were like the second sons who didn't inherit the titles. So they'd go into the church and they've becomes the Knights of Malta. And when they died, they were treated with great heroic beauty around each of them. They would build their own little chapels and decorate with their family crest.

And yeah, it's not the way we think of stewardship now. And it's not a form of charity that we think of now. But the church is a little over the top.

Barbara: I didn't put in a photo of the inside of the hospital that we saw, which the tour guide said this was the first place that had individual indoor toilets for sanitation purposes to prevent the spread of disease.

And there's really nothing to look at. It's just a little nook, there isn't even a seat with a circle in an or anything. So the photo is kind of boring, but I thought, that's amazing. They were forward-thinking with sanitation and cleanliness and individual privacy. To the extent that it was related to medical need.

Ken: The Knights of Malta had gotten pretty good in the healing arts and they didn't understand germs. They didn't have microscopes, they couldn't see the bacteria and the viruses and things.

But they understood the diseases could be communicable. Each bed was surrounded by a curtain wall so that no disease could be passed from one bed to the next. And they had the separate toilets so cholera wouldn't pass around.I don't know if it's true or not that they invented the concept of quarantine, which is very timely topic now.

It's it means 40.  Is it means 40 days and they would hold people in their sort of quarantine cells for 40 days before they would let them to roam around the Island. Make sure they didn't bring the bubonic plague or cholera or smallpox. So the Knights of Malta were quite advanced for their day.

Barbara: at this point, we'd be happy to take 40 days cause it's been a lot more than 40 days, but that's all right. We're making progress. I hope.

Ken: It's like the 40 years in the wilderness, it's a symbolic number, meaning so much.

Barbara: Well, we're past the 40 weeks now. And this is the Island that you had mentioned earlier, and this was one of my favorite moments during the pilgrimage.

And I believe for the rest of the group as well, we took a boat out here and we had a very short communion service. The wind was whipping and it was at the end of the day for the boat. Cause that's how we just got to go out there, our small group. And then we headed back to the main Island.

Ken: shipwreck Island. These are the very rocks upon which St Paul's Roman vessel was thrown by the wind onto these rocks and it crashed and they pulled themselves to shore. But it’s very desolate and always has been, it's not an Island where anybody lived, but they were able to get out of the storm.

And then the Maltese found them the next day, when they saw the shipwreck. I knew that this was a very Holy place.

We set up our card table. We put on our linen tablecloth. The wind was blowing so much I was afraid that the bread and the wine would blow away before we had a chance to eat it. And it was so memorable. And to think that this is a place of great antiquity and profound meaning. And that was one of my very favorite memories of the whole pilgrimage of Malta, because the weather was against us, but we managed, we overcame the odds. And it was a beautiful event, us singing there. Every hand of the group holding down something on the table. So it didn't blow away, singing our little songs and sharing the body and blood of Christ.

Barbara: optional homework for listeners is check out Acts chapter 27. That's sort of the lead up and then Acts 28, the first 10 verses. Or you can keep going if you want to. We want to show one more Island location, and then also talk about the broader concept of pilgrimage even if you can't get on a plane right now and go to Malta. So another one of my favorite locations was the Island of Gozo, which is just a short distance from the larger Island of Malta. And we visited three churches on that Island that I can remember that particular day. And I was just curious, Ken, how often, when you were on Malta for a while, did you go back and forth, and do you have a sense of the difference between the two islands? Because they really felt unique to me from each other. They weren't the same.

Ken: well, You're right. Gozo is much smaller and they've always been the sort of the stepchild. All the attention was down in Malta and Gozo was always left behind, but  it's a huge ferry boat that goes back and forth four times an hour.

And while I was working there, one of my regular duties was to go every Wednesday and do a church service on Gozo. So I would take the public bus up there, take the ferry boat across to Gozo, get a taxi cab, to take me to the church and do the service. And the architecture looked very much like that Shrine of the Knights of Malta where they carved into the stone and touched up with gold leaf and various colors.

And the Island is smaller. It's more agrarian. And the Gozo people are very, very proud. There's talk of building a tunnel so you could drive back and forth and everybody on Malta wants it, probably so they can get a summer house, and they can get back and forth, but the Gozo people aren't so sure they want to have Malta coming to their little Island.

Right now it's a little bit more unspoiled and less developed. It's beautiful nature if you like the sort of deserty scenes.

Barbara: Yep. I would really endorse a trip to Malta by all means. And then the last two photos are from my favorite church building because of its simplicity on Gozo. And I know that you have been on many pilgrimages, in many churches, cathedrals, probably just your little field shrine. And I'm wondering, can you articulate better than I can, Ken, sometimes you just walk into a place and it just feels different from other places?

Ken: the one we're looking at right now, ironically, was built as a pilgrimage church. It was not built to be a parish church. And it was a place where there was a vision of the blessed Virgin Mary to some farmer in the field, and they named the church after the farmer. They're still building it, so that's why it's a little bit cleaner and a little bit more simple looking. I hate to say this, Barbara, we'll give it another 100 years and it may be all gold leaf as well.

But it's not what we call modern, but by Maltese standards, it's quite modern. But the idea is it's a place for personal prayer, lots of little side shrines and side altars. And you can walk around as if you're doing the rosary. You can do your own private prayers. You can find your favorite saints and go up to that.

And it's not for a public mass, with a thousand people, all sitting in the pews. This is for the individual. Confined a place for private prayer and devotion. And we'd walk around and we'd see, you know, somebody deep in prayer, often a corner, maybe weeping or maybe a veil over their face or something that they went there not to be public.

They went there to be private and it does change the atmosphere, but we walked into that place and we knew it was a place where we shouldn't be talking to each other. You know, it was a place of silence, profound of stillness, like the stillness you want to have in your soul when you finally get home.

And so there's something that speaks in this kind of a place. And I think it's the echo of all the prayers that have been said in this church since it was built. I like to imagine that the prayers go out like acoustical sound waves and they embed themselves in the stone so that you can go back 10 years later. And the prayers are still there and the more prayers that have been added, the stones become just filled with the prayer life of the people who've visited. It's a pretty church. But more than that, it's a prayerful space.

Barbara: how do we find Holy places to visit on personal pilgrimages in this time? Right now, when travel is restricted, how do we continue to seek that connection with God anywhere?

Ken: I think we start by realizing that pilgrimage as a journey can be a metaphor. You know, we're not able to fly off to Europe to go find some Roman ruins. But as a metaphor, we are always on our journey from the time of our baptism until the time of our resurrection to eternal life.

We're always journeying and we're journeying in the direction of God. I mean, this is part of moral theology, like in a dilemma, what should I do? Which is the better way, which draws you to God, which takes you off on a diversion? Just keep on the road following to God. During COVID at least we're lucky enough to have the technology where we can journey through slide shows like this or through a travel logs. There are countless videos. If you know of a place you particularly want to go, you could do it with technology, and I suggest you spread it out slowly. Don't just binge. Don't just see how many you can pack into one day. But take it slowly as if you're on a walking journey and work your way through the place you want to visit, but do it with the intention of praying along the way.

Now, a second way to make a pilgrimage is find the Holy places in your local area. There's nothing that says God only lives in Europe. You know, maybe the churches were in Europe first, but there are Holy places where God has done great things through interesting people all over the world.

I was living in Shreveport Louisiana many, many years ago, and I asked somebody about a pilgrimage place- where's someplace close we could go? And they said, Memphis, Tennessee. And I said, I do not count Graceland and Elvis to be a pilgrimage destination. And they said, no. We're talking about the Episcopal cathedral in Memphis, the shrine of the sisters of Memphis, the martyrs of the cholera epidemic, stayed behind to take care of the orphans. And they all died from the disease. And they go, here's the book, read it. And I said I've got to go. And that was the very first pilgrimage I ever organized getting a bus load of people to go with me, to the martyrs of them to visit their places.

And along the way, we had chances to talk and discuss and share the stories from the book. And by the time we got there, these sisters who had been virtually unknown to us before, they felt like they were our sisters. And when we went to their graves, we brought our flowers to decorate their graves. You can find a local Holy place someplace near your home.

Now the third form of pilgrimage is to make your home the Holy place. Set up in a corner of your living room or in the spare bedroom or down in the basement, sort of a grotto or a Holy place where you can light your candles, have the table where you put out all your most Holy things- the cross you were given when you were baptized or your prayer book that you got from your grandfather or the Holy family Bible light, some candles and sit there.

I've sat for half an hour in silence, looking at the flickering candle, feeling the presence of God, feeling my grandmother who gave me that cross or feeling my grandfather gave me the Bible or create your own Holy place. And then daily make your pilgrimage there to say your private prayers. I have with age, gotten much more accustomed to the idea of just enjoying the silence. I've had so many years where I was talking to God, talking to God, talking to God, but never taking time to listen, to see if God was talking back. Sometimes I'll put on a little music, sometimes I'll read a Bible verse and I do have a lovely icon of painting of Jesus.

And I'd like to just stare at that for a while. And I realized that I'm not really staring at the picture, but I'm allowing my brain to focus on one thing so that I can listen to whatever the Holy Spirit's telling me.

Barbara: And maybe the visual image is sort of a cue that I'm in a Holy presence right now.

Ken: I think this depends upon your personality. Some people really like to be populated by lots of art. Other people may do better with a plain white wall or just a simple candle or maybe a picture of the grandmother that we keep talking about, whatever draws you close to God.

Take advantage of that. And intentionally say, I'm going to sit down here. I'm going to seek God's presence. Or better theology to say, I'm going to invite God into my presence and he'll come.

Barbara: When you spoke about the heritage that we received, I thought about first nations people who really felt that creation is God's sanctuary as well. And I do feel close to God when I'm in creation and don't always need to have a building around me to feel like I'm with God.

Ken: I should have thought of that too, because you're absolutely right. Taking a hike through the woods is a very spiritual thing to do, especially when you can get to the point when you say.

Oh, God, that's a beautiful flower. Thank you for that flower. Oh Lord. Look at the way the light shines down to the trees. Thank you for the sunlight and for the trees. Oh Lord. What a beautiful smell on the wind. Thank you for the pine fragrance of this forest, you know, and let it be an exercise in prayer, not just how fast can I walk and why did these people litter?

And what am I going to eat for lunch when I get back? You know, those things stop us from being on pilgrimage, but the intentional seeking the presence of God can turn any moment of any day into a spiritual pilgrimage. We're journeying with Jesus on the way, not just the way to Jerusalem, but the way to the Mount of the Ascension.

And even the way to our heavenly home awaiting us. It's a long journey, but when we get there, what an adventure that's right. What a joy that will be.   

Barbara: Thank you very much. I am so grateful for your wisdom.

Ken: Well, thank you for inviting me to talk with you.

Resources:

Matthew 17:1

https://www.metropolitanchapter.com (Mdina Cathedral)

https://www.stpaulspromalta.org

https://www.stjohnscocathedral.com

Acts 27 and 28