Deb about church & society
Barbara: Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 minutes of faith. Today's guest is Deb Teagan. I met Deb in Stuttgart, Germany, where I lived for the past two years. She's been a military spouse for 25 years and has volunteered for 10 years with the air force and army chapels and family groups. Deb is an ordained clergy person in the United Methodist church, serving as both a local church pastor and as a college campus minister.
Before going to seminary to become a pastor. Deb worked as a blood bank technologist for 10 years. She's from South Carolina and has survived. 11 military moves, Deb dreams about buying a travel camper and visiting lots of national parks. Deb, how are things in Germany? I've heard places are opening up after the pandemic is easing and there's also protests.
Deb: today is a big day because restaurants are open for indoor eating. Again. We have been since they 15th of March, so almost three months. I think that people are getting ready or happy to be getting out, but people are still required to mirror wear masks inside on public transportation.
There was a large protest in downtown Stuttgart on Saturday, mostly a silent one. It was really well attended with absolutely no trouble at all, but a lot of support for, Justice for people all over the world who are needy in need of it. So, it it's felt like it's been a good thing.
Barbara: that actually fits in with today's theme, which is church in society. And that can really mean different things. What I see is partly why are we here? And also, how are we here? So both of the church bodies that we belong to have websites and the Lutheran one has documents called social statements, which are at www.elca.org and the United Methodist church also has a long history of advocating for social justice and there's resources at www.umcjustice.org
Deb, one of the quotes from the social statement about church and society is that we are called to be wise and active citizens.
What are some things that come to your mind when you hear wise and active citizens?
Deb: Think that it means thinking before doing it's very easy to just react to a scene that's happening, but I have found that if I stop, take a breath, pray, think about sort of the biblical implications of whatever struggles are going on in society.
and then at that, of that model, that tends to be something that's much more long lasting than just doing the first thing that comes to my head, which is usually something out of anger rather than something out of love. And I
Barbara: have a hunch that for you being thoughtful does not necessarily mean being slow and plodding and methodical. Cause I get the sense that there's also some anger out there. You know, we've been talking about this for hundreds of years. And how much progress have we made. So being wise doesn't necessarily mean just thinking about it for so long that nothing ever happens.
Deb: No. and I think that, that, that is, that could be, that has tended to be the struggle is that we have said, well, let's just study this a little bit longer.
That is tradition has a long history of general conferences and commissions, where they say, “let's study this issue” and we take four years to look at it and then we basically lose our momentum. And so you are correct for me, it doesn't necessarily mean not doing something in a timely fashion, but it does mean not just jumping on the first bandwagon that drives by, it means doing research and trying to figure out, is there an organization, maybe it's my church. Maybe it's another church. Maybe it's a non government organization. That's doing something that I want to be connected with. And then asking myself the question, how can I make myself a part of this journey?
Barbara: And I also want to honor that anger has a just place. I'm not going to tell anyone don't be angry, but one of the things I'm hearing you say is that acting out of anger may bring different results than trying to hold your anger and turn it into a constructive tool. If at all possible,
Deb: it's sort of like when I was a kid and I would do something wrong and my mom would make me go sit in my room for 15 minutes. Before I got to come back and we got to talk about what happened 10 minutes was this much for her, as it was for me, what it did was it led us both sort of set ourselves and then being able to have a more constructive conversation that just being immersed in the emotions of the moment. Yes. I also see that in the current situation protests, but also throughout time, that we need to gather ourselves and sometimes that to ask ourself, the question is my first thought.
Self protection or are there some new lessons that I need to be learning in this process? Because I can assure you that in 25 years of marriage and also 30 years of ministry, that I have traveled a path that has taken me in a different place now than I was when I first started.
Barbara: Can you give an example?
Deb: I think that in the beginning of my ministry, I was very focused on the interior life of my faith and the interior life of others people's space. So it was about spiritual discipline and it was about Bible reading and it was about sort of getting my own faith journey in and as I have lived these last 30 years, I have realized that I can spend my whole time looking at my own faith journey. And if I don't ever go outside and Put my faith into practice, then my faith isn't really being used to its full advantage. I had a confirmation statement said to me one year, well, Deb, I only have like 1% faith - I'm not sure I want to get up there and say, I'm going to follow Jesus. And I said to her, God could do a lot with that one percent. And so we don't have to totally know what it is we believe, or we don't have to be totally a hundred percent rooted and. Our faith journey. if God is leading us, if we hear that voice of God saying, no, I want you to go do this.
Sometimes we just have to go and we grow in that whole process.
Barbara: So it's okay if you don't feel like you are an expert in all these different things or you're just thousand percent rock solid on everything, but to just consider what can I do to contribute to the betterment of society?
Deb: Yes. And I just finished teaching, my fifth confirmation class in the six years.
We've been here in Germany and we each year have taken on this passage from Mark chapter 12. it's the story of the teacher of the law, coming to Jesus and saying, what's the greatest commandment? It says to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
in my early Christianity, I spent a lot of times wondering what are the things that I shouldn't do. And what does, is there just two things you should do Love God, I love your neighbor. once I started focusing on those things, then the courage to get outside.
My own comfort zone came a lot easier because I wasn't worried about is this going here and making a mistake? I had a pastor friend of months tell our church if we're not failing at stuff that we're not trying hard enough. Which was like freeing for us. It was like everything we do doesn't have to be a success.
We just have to go out there and say, Oh yeah, this works. But yet this didn't work so well, how can we tweak it? What do we need to do different? Does that make sense?
Barbara: Yeah. So what if loving your neighbor could be kind of risky because. I find that some people are easier to love and some people are harder to love, but we are not called to love the people who are easy to love.
And that's not to put blame on anybody else. It's totally about my own issue. If someone's acting hateful or something like that. in preparation for our conversation today, Deb, I looked up neighbor and depending on what translation of the Bible you use. The word neighbor is listed 150 times, including in the Hebrew scripture, which Christians call the old Testament as well as in the new Testament.
our neighbors are not just the people who live on either side of us.
Deb: Right. we tend to live in places, are at least to the United States, we tend to live in places where people, our neighbors are like us. I think living overseas for me has really expanded this concept of what being a neighbor is all about, because I'm surrounded by people who are different than.
Space pick up different language than me. I have a street that runs in front of my house and there's of four apartments there. And for Muslim families live there and, we wave at each other and we speak halting German because German is not the common language for either one of us. And. Our understanding of what it means to be a neighborhood, how to sort of relate to one another has really expanded through the differences between us, not through the sameness.
And so when I hear God saying, love your neighbor, those two commandments that Jesus talks about are actually distilling of the 10 commandments. The first four commandments are about loving God. And the last six commandments are about loving your neighbor. it's about understanding someone as a neighbor means actually putting the neighbors interest on par with, or maybe even ahead of your own interest.
Barbara: And I agree with what you said a minute ago, that it seems to me a lot of churches focus on don't do this, don't do that.
And it's okay to have these guides in our lives that are designed to protect us and our neighbors and God's creation. But at the same time, Living, always on a focus of don't do this, or be in fear of I'm going to get in trouble for this. That's not leaving room for grace, because like you said, there are also things that we should be doing.
And that's what this conversation is about. I'm curious about the concept of compassion in this day and age.
Deb: I think that some people think that compassion means weakness. I think that compassion means strength. It means that I have to be vulnerable to other people. I have to understand that perhaps people are going to reject the things that I want to offer them, but I still have to offer them. I have this thing happen before I was even a pastor right after I graduated from college. I started volunteering with youth missions, in South Carolina and we would go for a week and we would rehab people's homes and we went to this lady's trailer and did some repairs, but she also had a bunch of trash from the house. there were 10 of us and we spent a whole day clearing away the trash and taking it to the dump. And when we got back the next morning, she had thrown her trash out the back door and the kids were very mad and we had to sit down and have a long conversation about expectations.
they were like, I don't want to work here anymore. She's not going to treat us right. And we had to have a long talk about why we weren't doing this to make ourselves feel better or to make ourselves look good. But that we were here to model the kind of compassion we would want people to show for us.
we had to make sure that we understood that we were working to make her life safer and that we didn't need her to buy into our expectations in order to serve her.
Barbara: And in some cases that may have to do with our own upbringing, this is what I was taught. So I think it's right. But does this mean it's right for everybody on the planet? Well, maybe, but maybe not to show respect for other people's beliefs and even dietary restrictions or, just honoring how people live, how different cultures exist.
Deb: Right. And it's hard. there's nothing like getting out of your own comfort zone, like moving a dozen times in your adult life. I actually say military families are often able to adjust to new situations fairly easily or more easy than some other people that I know, because we have to go in and we have to sort of like make a new life every two or three years And then if you compound that by moving overseas or living in a place that is dramatically different from what your expectations are or what you've experienced before.
for me that the ability to do that comes from just the joy of experiencing new things and meeting new people. But it also comes from the understanding that I'm not in this by myself wasn't the right exit that we're supposed to get off, but it's okay because we can get back on the highway and get off at the next exit. And it'll be fun to, I mean, I think we think, Oh my gosh, I have to do this exactly this way. There's this one path and my experiences that God is on every path. And that gives me a lot of freedom.
Deb: I'm a ordained United Methodist minister who hasn't served in a local congregation since 2010, but I still use my ordination and my seminary training and my years of experience every day. and did I imagine that this was what my life would look like? No, but is it exactly where I'm supposed to be? Yes. it feels like, God said I can do a new thing. Are you along for the ride?
my daily existence is about realizing that I work in the world as a Christian, it means that I just get to go out there and figure out, okay, God, where am I? I serve today. And many times that work comes to me just through the needs that I see. and often those are not religious needs.
Often those are needs of friendship or companionship, or, Hey, I need somebody to bring me a meal or, those kinds of things. I think people often think, Oh, well, if I'm going to serve in society, I need to be out there. It needs to be a quote unquote, explicitly Christian message. But Reinhold Niebur, who was a great theologian on 1950s, said, “preach the gospel daily. Use words if necessary.”
Barbara: Actions often do speak louder than words. And I believe that you and I share the same belief that we're not doing good deeds to earn points with God, but we're doing it out of love for neighbor, which we're commanded to do. So there's a fine balance between that. And also people who aren't Christian do good things to help
Deb: Right. Hey, I'm thrilled. To go to heaven, but that's not why I do these things. I mean, I'm here to live out the joy, that comes to me every day through my experience with Christ. And, I look at the biblical story and I see Jesus say, the kingdom of heaven is now. And so we're not just expecting the kingdom to come in the future.
The kingdom is where we're living now. And what is it that I am doing to build up the kingdom?
Barbara: our question is what is the church's responsibility in society, both as a larger church body and as each of us individually, one example from the Lutheran statement is that we should talk about moral decisions together.
We should learn, use reasons and feel. That's a direct quote from the Lutheran social statement. I'm curious, how do we work together with larger church bodies as well as doing the individual work that we were just talking about?
Deb: the United Methodist, justice page. They're pouring money into programming To combat poverty, climate change, the health initiatives piece. They also work with the United nations and with the United States Congress to try to pass laws, which will help make justice more possible for people out there.
And they also take volunteers, both paid and not, they have missionaries that go out and work in the world, I had to pick an area that I wanted to have emphasis on because I wanted to, be able to focus on some main topics.
for me, this idea about poverty and, Justice are the places where I have felt lately, mostly most called to learn about. that means I contribute to the ministry of the church, with my dollars that I do a lot of reading of articles and books.
Trying to learn about different perspectives and about issues that I didn't know anything about before. my church has also gotten me in the habit of writing my Congress, people, my representative, and my two senators. I've learned to be much more vocal about sort of how I'm participating in that process. And, for me, that means that, I've had to get much better at listening. And not trying to always be the one to speak. And so that's why I've been, of written reading, especially in the last month or so a lot of new authors that I had not heard that I had never known before.
I guess if there's one good thing that came out of the pandemic has been that I basically have left my house about five times in the last three months. I've spent a lot of time reading
Barbara: I had the opportunity to listen. When I traveled to Texas earlier this year, before the pandemic hit to learn about issues at the border land. And I much preferred to listen in person.
To listen to a human being's voice, but when that's not possible, reading to me also can be a way of listening, especially if we're seeking to diversify our understanding of a certain issue. And then as long as we've got internet, we can listen to recorded information from lots of different perspectives as well.
Deb: it's just helped me realize that my perspective is small I can say, Oh, well, I'd never thought about that. That way before.
how can I incorporate this into my experience of faith and into my experience of a serving I'm out in the world, all the needs that need to be met.
Barbara: And many of those needs are listed on two other websites that you gave me, which I'm going to list out in a minute.
And they also address in part the question that we're called to stop discriminating and being indifferent to social and economic inequalities. And there are resources in many different formats. One that you had suggested is the sojourners community and they are at www.SOJO.net and world relief is www.worldrelief.org
So I really appreciate that. You said Deb, that there's so many issues out there. We don't have to do everything for everybody, or eventually we'll kind of feel crushed too, but we might feel. Especially called to a few issues and want to learn more and act on those and the websites that you suggested also provide some guidance.
Like you said, writing letters to senators and representatives. There might be someone who's like, well, I've never done that before. And I don't know what to say, but organizations have models on their websites that you can either hand write it out, which is really meaningful. Or you can just click a button.
I know that Amnesty has letters already written. And I'm wondering if you have any other tips or thoughts on reducing discrimination and indifference to social and economic inequalities.
Deb: in this political season, we can't be fooled into thinking that the top jobs in the land are the ones that are the most important.
I've been realizing is that it's local city council races and it's state, house and Senate races and it's school boards. every elected position is important because. all of the, discrimination laws that happen in the world in the country are not happening just at the upper level.
They're actually happening all over the place. one of the issues that I didn't know anything about until about six weeks ago is this idea of bail reform. Yes. And how crazy it is. It's horrible that people. Have a small crime often to do with money. And the solution in the system is to charge them more money or send them to jail.
Barbara: And they have to stay in jail before they're convicted. If their family can't meet that money, which is totally possible in many cases,
Deb: Correct. Or like in the state of Florida where they passed, an amendment to their constitution, which said that people who have served their sentence and are no longer paroled to get their voting rights back.
And then somebody found a loophole and said, well, if they have court costs, they should have to pay those court costs. Well, often those court costs are thousands of dollars.
Barbara: And it's going to take a long time to pay that off. And that's time when your voice can't be heard through
Deb: voting, correct, or the process of requiring identification and then closing the offices where the identification can be.
Barbara: So it's a matter of social justice that we can work to advocate for people's voting rights so that their voices can count.
Deb: Right. And the Bible doesn't say anything about voting rights or bail reduction or any of those things, but it does say you need to take care of your neighbor. And again, I come back to this idea of how do I want to be treated?
I think that for me, that's one of the reasons why this right injustice issue has, has sort of hit me like a wet towel in the face is that, as a white woman, I get certain privilege just for being a white woman. I have friends who do not get that same privilege because they are women of color.
I need to stop assuming that everybody has exactly like I do. And so that's one of the reasons why I really started trying to listen to the experiences of other people.
Barbara: Thank you for sharing that the concept of white privilege and white fragility is something that some people say, well, it doesn't exist. You know, this is the world for everyone. And it's not, if you don't know that white privilege is real, then you've probably lived it and don't have any concept of how other people's daily lives play out.
Deb: And I will say this Barbara five years ago, maybe even three years ago. if someone said to me, Oh Deb, you're just a liberal Christian left leaning person.
I would've probably tried to argue with them. And now I say, aha, because big liberal doesn't mean what people think it means being liberal just means that we want equality for everybody. We want everybody to be treated the same. I have sort of had to shrug off my shame for being the thing that I have always been and then just climbing it.
Barbara: I think there's a lot of fear in the world and fear that I don't necessarily agree with., when I was in Texas, it seemed to me like people are afraid of - Okay - So let me not generalize because saying people isn't fair, either. Maybe there are folks who don't think that immigration to the United States should be as open as it has been in the past. And I hear things like, well, people are taking our jobs. I'll tell you what. I picked one flat of strawberries a few years ago. And I said, thank you, thank you to the people who pick strawberries. My back was killing me. I said, I never want to do this again. And that's maybe the worst example but I was so grateful and I thought, I don't think a lot of jobs are being taken away from people who really want to pick strawberries or other fruits and vegetables or things like that.
Deb: if there's anything that this coronavirus thing has shown us, is that if they are not, if they're not people available to pick with crops, then the crops go to go to waste. I just can't separate my life as a Christian from the ways that I'm called to live in the society and to Recognize and then address the needs of the people in the society.
Even if they're not like me, even if they're not Christians, even if they don't come from the same place that come from, I do feel like if there's something that I can do, then I need to try to do it. It took bravery in the beginning. And now it's so funny. Cause my husband says, if we move back to the United States, I'd just spend all my time bailing you out of jail
Barbara: because you're promoting social justice and people are going to be mad at you and afraid of you
Deb: just go chain myself to something, I don't know. And the reality is that I'm really not that brave that I would go out there and purposely get arrested. There are people for whom that is a calling. I don't think that that's what my calling is, but, I do find that. if somebody says something that I really disagree with, I try very nicely to say, well, that's an interesting perspective. Have you ever thought of this perspective? And I at least try to vocalize, a more justice oriented Christianity. Then perhaps some people are used to.
Barbara: hearing and that might feel like a huge risk to some people who could be rejected by their family, by where they live, for their quote, radical beliefs about justice inequality.
Deb: right.
Barbara: Earlier, you had mentioned about praying and trying to discern God's will, or maybe feeling a calling. And I'm wondering if you could talk about that for a minute, because not everyone just kind of hears a voice out of the sky that says, Deb, go do this. So how do we get a sense of these nudgings or God's will and praying there's not really sort of a formula or if you do this, then you'll immediately get this sense.
Deb: There is certainly not a formula for me. It comes in. Several different ways. It might be an article that I read or a news story that I hear about. And I want to go check out more information about it. It might be something someone says to me or, sometimes it'll be like, I should really do something about that thing.
I should really, write my Congress person about gun control, And then I hear six stories on the news and I get three things in the mail and I have four emails and I have somebody have a conversation with me about it. I'm like, well, apparently this is the topic of the day and I should pay attention to it.
And so sometimes it's just paying attention to the things that all around you. And I do say, Lord, please help me go out. That helped me to serve you in a way that's kind of honored you. And be able to be something that will honor People who are working for this goal. I'm not hearing God say, “Deb, you should go do this.”
what I'm paying attention to is all the places in my life where I'm seeing information or hearing stories about things that people have done. then I take it from there and say, okay, well, this is the way that I could be a part of that process. it takes ears to hear, you have to sort of filter out all the other stuff that's happening around you.
Barbara: There's a lot of negativity and some people experienced self doubt. And even though we talked about, when we pray or, or discern what to do, that doesn't mean we should slow down. I do want to also acknowledge that sometimes the process might feel like planting seeds and you're writing letters to government officials and sometimes we feel like we've been just writing letters for decades and maybe something improves. And then later it gets repealed or a new law gets passed. So it's like two steps forward, two steps back, but to keep going to not feel discouraged. And I also wanted to acknowledge that sometimes we decide that we want to do something and then we're trying to figure out how can I do this? And it might be going back to school I saw the movie, the outsiders in junior high, and I knew that I wanted to be a social worker. So I had to finish junior high. I finished high school and then go to college, but you can still do things along the way towards that goal of supporting other people. I just loved what you said, Deb, that you just had a little, two sentence conversation with God and sometimes prayers can be really long and really earnest and groaning. And sometimes it's okay to just talk casually with God.
Deb: Yes, I certainly have a more formal prayer time most days, but I'm home alone a lot these days.
And sometimes I don't have the TV on, sometimes I just have conversation with God and in the process of what my day looks like. And have you ever had this idea in your head and it just won't go away?
Barbara: Yes.
Deb: And you say to yourself, where did that come from? And, that seed planting often starts with us, that a state gets planted in our head.
And we think, I don't even know where that came from. Sometimes it comes from somebody saying something and you say, I think I really agree with that point of view. Let me figure out why that is. Or maybe it comes from, Oh my gosh, I never thought of that. That way. Now let me figure out what else I need to know about, I read this great book called surprised by hope, by NT Wright, who was an Anglican Bishop and a new Testament scholar. And he wrote this very accessible book about how Jesus’ resurrection and Ascension and the day of Pentecost is sort of the framework of what the church is supposed to look like. And he said in this book, every thing that we do can work toward bringing the kingdom of God to be more present today, whether it's the small things or the big things, and you have to have confidence that God is gonna bless you in all of the things that you're doing.
And boy did that give me confidence that- to talk to you today, to do the sort of stepping out of my comfort zone on things to know that God wants us to try. Maybe we're not always going to get it right. he, but he wants us to try and he wants us to grow and. That for me, that's meant saying, Ooh boy, I got that all wrong back there 25 years ago.
I'm glad that I've taken the opportunity to grow into a new understanding of this issue or, or this, or interpreting, a passage of scripture. and so for me, not just as a pastor, but just as a Christian, I love the fact that I'm just better at doing this faith thing that I was a long time ago.
I feel like I'm better at doing this marriage thing that I was 25 years ago. And both of those things give me great joy and give me the courage to be a witness out in the community in a way that I might have been more afraid to do before.
Barbara: That's a great encouragement for folks, as we mature to say, maybe we feel more confident now and also to give a shout out to some of our young people who are just doing amazing things in the world in terms of advocacy and not everybody has the same gifts. And we honor that as well. Some people may have the gift of writing. Some people are artists, some people can sing their heart out. And I feel closer to God when I hear that kind of music. So just honoring our many different gifts and knowing that God can use them in different ways to make the world a better place.
Deb: I'm in awe of the young people who were allayed leading a lot of the social justice movements of today. four young teenage girls who posted on Facebook, Hey, we want to have a gathering in Nashville and 10,000 people showed up
Barbara: that boggles my mind. And hopefully we give each other courage at all different ages and stages to make the world a better place.
Deb, is there anything else on your mind or on your heart about church and society for today?
Deb: my faith has grown as I have been willing to look outside my own needs and to be able to pay attention to, and work toward meeting the needs of others.
Some of the best lessons that I've learned about homelessness, where the times that I volunteered spending the night at a homeless shelter.
And having conversation with working people who were homeless to totally erase all the stereotypes I had about what it meant to be homeless. And so I guess my encouragement to people would be if you're afraid, it's okay, but take a step outside of your comfort zone because you're going to be amazed at how God is going to bless you in the process of stepping out into the world and say, here, God use me.
Barbara: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Deb.
Bible verse: Mark 12:28-34
Resources:
ELCA Social Statement about church and society https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Church_SocietySS.pdf?_ga=2.49441250.572738045.1590622907-1006791731.1589050443
United Methodist Church Justice www.umcjustice.org
Sojourners community at www.SOJO.net
World Relief is www.worldrelief.org
Amnesty https://www.amnestyusa.org
Book “Surprised by Hope” by N. T. Wright