Barbara: Hi everyone. And welcome to 40 minutes of faith. My name is Barbara Cox and I host this weekly podcast to explore God's word and our relationship with God. Today's topic is how we understand God and our guest is Sarah Mount Elewononi. I met Sarah in Massachusetts and she lives in Pennsylvania now. Sarah has deep United Methodist roots with broad interfaith appreciation and friendships. She has worked for 20 years in pastoral ministry and holds a doctoral degree in liturgy and sociology of religion.
Sarah dreams of growing into her new identity as a cyber circuit writer, hoping to build and strengthen safe harbors communities where disciples of Jesus are rescued from the wrath, where they can grow strong and make a difference in the world. Sarah, how are you all in Pennsylvania these days?
Sarah: we're doing okay. We have two daughters who were doing school in a hybrid fashion for one quarter and about to start doing five day a week in the second quarter. And it all of a sudden became everything at home for the rest of November, and my husband's still goes out to work sometimes and works from home sometimes.
So we're getting along. We've been worshipping through a church I belonged to before I went to seminary in Massachusetts, which has been delightful. I've been able to sing in the choir there and the girls have gone to Sunday school.
Barbara: let's take a look at our Bible passage today from the book of Genesis, which is the very first book of your Bible- we have a really long reading today that we are going to be sharing throughout this conversation instead of reading it all right away. If you'd like to follow along, we'll be talking about several aspects of chapter two, verse 15, all the way through chapter three, verse 24. Chances are that you've heard the story before about the garden of Eden: Adam and Eve were given fruit bearing trees and animals and many other plants, but they were not to eat from one tree. Then along comes a snake, temptation, eating the fruit, fear, hiding, judgment and more. Let's unpack this together.
Sarah, how did you come to select this passage for our conversation?
Sarah: it's a critical passage. I was working as a pastor and dealing with conflict and trying to find my way through the conflict. I discovered something called nonviolent communication. I'm wrestling with certain Bible passages or working to see scripture through this new way of looking - in nonviolent communication, one of the key pieces is recognizing that judgment, blame, shame are all methods of violent coercion of trying to make people do stuff they don't naturally want to do, which was kind of a new way for me to think about things. I was learning this and also working as a pastor, the scripture came up during lent and I looked at it, I was like, Oh,
Barbara: It's full of blame and shame and judgment.
Sarah: Not only that, what does God say not to do? Don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When we think we know what's good and what's evil, that's judgment- we're labeling things as good and evil, and that's a judgment that we're making and God says, don't go there. Don't do that.
And they go ahead and do it. And what's fascinating is that they assume after they've done that, that God is also judging good and evil and that God has judged them as bad for breaking their rules. Cause along with this whole scheme of judgements, then there's also rewards and punishments. If you do what someone wants you to do, you get rewarded. If you don't do it, you get punished. Adam and Eve assume that they're going to be punished. They hide from God and that breaks the first commandment of Jesus: To love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength. If you're afraid of somebody, you can't love them with your whole being.
They hide themselves from God. They're feeling ashamed. And then God calls them anyway and has a dialogue. And who told you and why did you eat from this fruit? Adam says, Oh, Eve gave it to me, blames Eve. And then Eve points to the serpent.
Oh, well it's the serpent's idea. So the blame and guilt and the shame breaks both of Jesus's great commandments right there. And it's a different way of reading the story than what was handed down.
Barbara: I'm really intrigued that you have some alternatives for us to consider, because I suspect that many people have had experience here on earth with this concept that you've talked about of a God of judgment and a God of law.
And then people communicate that and implement it and enforce that. I am so happy that you introduced this concept of nonviolent communication and it made me also think then about the 10 commandments - how can we integrate these concepts of a God of love and the 10 commandments and this nonviolent communication and in our earthly experiences?
Sarah: what I've been working on ever since I got these insights from years ago, and I've been teaching scripture to pastors for the last few years, so I've worked through a lot of these.
So one piece of this too, is abundance in nonviolent communication. You assume there's abundance. We're fighting to get our needs met. Everything we do is trying to meet a need. And if we try to force people to do stuff, to meet our needs, it usually goes wrong.
One way or another, it breaks relationships. And so if you can rely on abundance and recognize what we're fighting over the strategies, not the actual needs, then you can say, okay, this strategy isn't working for this person, but there's 10,000 other ways to meet this need. How can this need be met without making this person do this thing they don't want to do?
How do you understand commandments? I puzzled over this first or got the most clarity with Jesus and the command to love one another. And Jesus is washing the disciples’ feet and says, this is my commandment that you love one another. And that never made any sense to me.
How can you command somebody to love? I can't, there's free will. That's another key. And so the way I think about this is, I thought about the word commandment. And that story of love one another comes up on Maundy Thursday- that word Maundy is related to the English word mandate and a mandate is kind of like a relay race when I've got tube running with and I get to my partner, like passing the baton, right? So if you understand it this way, what God is really doing, what Jesus is saying, this is how things work in the way I've created the world. I've created the world with abundance. You have everything you need and don't go to the place of judgment.
And don't assume that I'm the judge. Just leave the judgment aside. And here's a mandate, here are some things that we know work and don't work to live a happy, healthy, fulfilling life. Right. So loving one another. And here's the conundrum with the washing of feet, right?
How many people really dread or would never want to have their feet washed? This was not the Jesus says if you don't wash feet, you're going to hell- he does not say
Barbara: that,
Sarah: but what Jesus is, meaning is if you can trust one another on this intimate level, that the disciples are allowing Jesus to trust them.
When they let Jesus wash his feet. If you can be that intimate and vulnerable with one another, then you will really understand what love is. Right. It's the way it works. And likewise with the 10 commandments, right? If you'll kill somebody, regardless of whether it's a justified adjust war or not, or if you kill another human being, you're going to have repercussions.
I mean, you can be healed from such a thing, but we're not meant to kill one another. We're not meant to be coveting what one another has, because we have abundance.
We don't have to take somebody else's stuff, there's money there. you know, we're not meant to tell lies, so when we do these things, we're getting into trouble. And so this is a mandate and even the word commandment has that mandate in the root of it too, that it's a way that works.
It's the user manual that God gives us.
Barbara: I've been reading a document called the large catechism for one of my school classes. And I had exposure to it when I was a kid in confirmation class, but I confess that I have a very different understanding of it now than I did then, because there are nuances that Martin Luther writes about.
Okay. So yes. You have all these commandments, don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. And then Martin Luther adds on. Okay. So we're not supposed to kill, to use the example that you had and not only are we not supposed to kill, but, in most of the commandments we are to then act proactively in support of other people.
Yes. Fear of each other. So it's not just don't do this cause I can think, yeah, well I haven't killed anybody but am I actively working to care for and support and work for the betterment of other people?
Sarah: Right.
Barbara: Just the basic commandment,
Sarah: right. And the Methodists, do the same kind of thing when they talk about doing no harm and then doing good, like both of those are important pieces of living life of faith.
Great.
Barbara: And I agree with what you said that God has provided abundantly for our earth and for humanity. And I've noticed that there are some people here on earth who really truly do not have enough, even of the very basics of food. And I'd appreciate your thoughts on where is God and where are we with each other when we have enough, but some people are literally starving?
Sarah: this has to do with, the way societies are set up so that there are some people who have way more than they need. And many people who don't have enough. Right. And systems get in place like slavery of different kinds or feudalism.
There's so many different ways to make sure that some people are getting more and other people don't have enough. Right. And so anytime. there's people without enough it's because we haven't ordered the life the way God would have us order life.
Barbara: I agree with you. And I might think, well, it's just a little old me here in upstate New York, but there are groups working globally to support anti-hunger efforts and systemic change and all that might sound kind of pie in the sky But each effort that we can take, there are ways to advocate for change both on the local level, just in my own neighborhood with a soup kitchen or a food pantry.
And then right on up to. The highest levels of government that can implement. But ultimately it comes down to human selfishness, which is sin. And I have that, I shouldn't just say, Oh, those rich people living in fancy places. It's all of us, not just those other people over there.
part of what we're doing is becoming awake to those systems that are running counter and are based on different stories than the story we get in scripture of God's grace and abundance.
Sarah: as far as the Adam and Eve story, the whole concept of original sin works against us. in that if we think that God is a God of wrath who punishes us for our sin,.
That if we can see it instead that our misery, the wrath all around us comes from our not living in right relationships. but God is doing everything God can to pull us out of that. And the domination culture of any empire, that punishes people and keeps people poor and, keeps people addicted and isolated and depressed.
and rewards the few, God keeps. In grace, meeting us there and pulling us out, showing us this other way to live, which is in freedom. One cardinal rule is, anybody can say no at any time. And that has to be okay because otherwise we're forcing people to do stuff.
Barbara: Do you mean we can say no to God, or we can say no to each other?
Sarah: all of the above- we only come to life in God's grace because we've said yes to it, because we see it meeting the needs that we have better than anything else, or because we're trusting and hoping that that will be the case.
Barbara: It sounds to me like we humans have taken really the worst qualities and the worst things that we can do to each other and make it happen regularly. I would like to think that I don't treat anybody poorly, but surely that can't be true- we're all saints and sinners, according to the theology that I'm the most familiar with in the Lutheran faith. I can try my best, but I'll never keep every law fully. So even if I don't think that I am intentionally pushing people down or demeaning them, that you have this concept of God's not pushing us away- we're kind of pushing each other away from God or maybe even ourselves.
Sarah: in the old Testament, the various powers, whether they were King David, who had Bathsheba's husband killed, those powers are not living according to God's way. And oftentimes people have assigned to God, the ultimate judge, the one who's punishing, to legitimize their own violence against others. And after Constantine people were being baptized at sword point, and that's when Jews started being slaughtered for not becoming Christian-
Barbara: we have a pretty unholy legacy of treating other people very horribly, killing them.
Sarah: and the emotional, spiritual violence in the church. How many Christians, though we have a practice of confession, how many people actually feel washed clean and free after they confess?
Instead, they're hiding pieces that they're afraid of God, or, that whole image of God is being the one who's going to condemn us and send us to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, when all God wants to do is pull us out of that.
And we don't even have to talk about the wrath to come. It's not the punishment we get when we die. It's the wrath we're in the middle of right now. If anybody wants to flee from the wrath, come and find a safe harbor, come and join with others who understand God in this liberating life-giving, grace-filled way.
Barbara: One thing that I'm used to now, and I'm curious if you have something similar in your faith tradition as well, is that at the beginning of a church service there's a corporate confession of sins. So we all say the same words at the same time, basically, “I'm sorry for what I've done and also for what I didn't do.”
And then the clergy person forgives the congregation. I'm wondering how are we doing that these days with people not being able to go to church? In some places, faith groups are still meeting in person, but how can just ordinary people who may or may not be in a church service every week, have a sense of I've done some things wrong and then to feel God's forgiveness?
Sarah: this is what my idea of safe havens is about. And this actually comes from another big learning I've had in recent years, related to food addiction and having small group accountability, and having buddies to talk to. Accountability is not coming to a group and admitting all the wrong I've done so that they can then, agree. Yes, you've done horrible. And this is your punishment, or we're going to shun you, or, there's all kinds of ways the Christian faith traditions have spun that out, give you penance.
That's not the point. The point is when we're in a small group and we all understand we're struggling with this together and we have similar struggles, or even if you might not have a food addiction, but if I can trust you not to judge me from my food addiction, but to have compassion about it, then I can say to you, well, I haven't been doing too well.
These last couple of weeks, I've been bingeing on stuff and I'm suffering. And the beauty of the Methodist tradition is we didn't start in America with large congregations that met in a church building on Sunday morning.
We started in prayer groups that met in a parlor and we were able to be forthright about the ways we've done harm, about failing to do good, and then encourage one another, admonish, one another, that God's grace is available to change. And early Methodists didn't know about food addiction, but they certainly knew about alcohol.
And so early Methodists were very much temperance people and often became teetotallers because they recognized that some people just needed that bright line where they didn't have any. And if they had even a little bit, it could trigger them to a binge. And that's exactly why Methodists ended up pioneering grape juice. Mr. Welch was a Methodist and he figured out how to pasteurize your grape juice so that it was possible to have grape juice in April. Choosing to honor the weakest member- not everybody had an alcohol problem, but some people did. And so we're going to adjust, switch our communion element to grape juice so that the weakest member isn't tempted.
Barbara: I'm impressed because I have a different episode on addiction and sometimes it's a big deal to try to get grape juice introduced or it's in a separate location. So I think that's terrific.
Sarah: having the small group who agrees to protect the weakest members where you can safely name that your sins or the things you're struggling with, the things that are preventing you from living a grace-filled life, can all help you. And then you share those mandates, those different ways, those different means of grace that can help you.
So now if it's an addiction, having bright lines, that you don't cross is a really helpful thing. And what I would love to envision is a Methodist congregation that has a bright line around the sugar and flour so after worship, I'm not tempted by all business that's laid out in coffee hour.
Barbara: I absolutely, I love what you said about accountability in love. I really think that's the first time I've ever heard that.
And you gave an example of people holding each other accountable in love, but I also get the sense from you and please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you talking about God also holding us accountable in love, which is different from how some people hear not only the creation story, but many other aspects of God?
Sarah: God wants help us to live a life that's free and happy and joyful. Playful, grace-filled. God's tried so many different ways to get us out, and offered so many different options, culminating in the Christian view in Christ, you know, God becoming.
One with us being born in this culture of domination and living in it, being killed by it, cause a huge factor in this whole thing is fear, Death being the biggest thing. So we're no longer afraid of dying if we really believe in eternal life through Christ, then we don't have to be afraid of what the empire can do.
We don't have to be afraid of the forces that want to kill us, what we'll continue to do the right thing and the loving thing and know that that won't die, even if we do. and even. Another piece that I love, it doesn't really show up in scripture but in, in the apostles creed, in the Nicene Creed, it says that Christ descends to hell,?
Sometimes we say the place of the dead, but what that's about is Christ reaching- my favorite icon in the Orthodox tradition is Christ reaching for Adam and Eve hands. He smashed the Gates in the locks and it's open. So
Barbara: they're not stuck there
Sarah: anymore. Daughters of Eve, all the sons of Adam, everybody.
so we're not imprisoned there. another piece of friendship I wanted to share, It has to do with racism and and even homophobia. My, one of my best friends in college there's was an African-American gay man.
and he hadn't come out to us when we first got to college. It took a couple of years for him to feel safe enough for that. But he was my first close black friend and just by being friends with him, helped me to understand and come to terms with what we call institutional racism, cause I was never raised to be prejudice towards black people, not in a straight forward way from my family.
though I certainly grew up in a very white culture and a very white part of New York state, but, His friendship. helped me to be, transformed and changed and to, to become an ally, to people who are being oppressed to be an anti-racist as Kennedy talks about it.
and that's actually one piece of my understanding of the Trinity is that friendship with God and friendship with one another,
Barbara: I suspect that that might be a really incredible concept literally to some people that, How is our relationship with God similar to a friendship and that it's not fire and brimstone a hundred percent of the time, or, much of the time at all, that this hand is stretched out to us in love.
Sarah: that realization was part of my conversion experience that happened a few years before I had the understanding from non-violent communication. I, in my first year in ministry, that was so very hard. I was not doing well with them and not showing the marks of success that one would want to see, or that were being measured by the Methodist, in our reports.
And. I also, had a failed romantic relationship at the time and, I was just feeling badly all the way around. And I was working with a spiritual director and was able to share with her that I couldn't even pray anymore. And there was like big blockage and I didn't know what it was at first, but, As I prayed about it and employed, the creativity that I've learned to use in that prayer.
I finally came to realize that I was picturing Jesus as the judge on the throne and all of these failures. I was attributing to. Me being cast out where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was afraid of the wrath of God. And so I couldn't pray. And, within a couple of months, while on a retreat and being handed some modeling clay, I, made this lovely, depiction of a dancing, Trinity three human figures of three different colors, holding hands dancing, and.
in that I heard God's saying come and play. And I love the concept where the Trinity is dancing into each other's. Roles and each other's, places. And that playfulness. And I really needed that to get out of my own prison of thinking that God was the judge who would send one people to wrath, but God's a Trinity.
And dancing is one of my most wonderful favorite healing activities ever.
Barbara: I like to ask whose voice is missing and the concept of a dancing Trinity , you don't really see that in this passage in Genesis. You hear God and here's the creation and the snake and Eve and Adam, and then God again, and the dancing Trinity isn't the only voice who's missing, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on some other ways of thinking about the story.
Sarah: we have Genesis one and the very first verse or two of Genesis one has what Christians have come to see as a Trinity.
the spirit of God is hovering over the waters and, here's where it's helpful to know what other religions in the area we're thinking about in terms of God and God in creation and in those stories - many of the cultures of the empires around the Hebrew people were, depicting God as a violent King.
Who was slaying a sea monster of chaos who was feminine usually. And in the slaying of the chaos, all the blood and the body parts became the earth and the creatures. Wow. And it connects to, deep rooted understandings and beliefs that matter is evil. It says we're good spirits trapped in bad bodies.
So that's the creation story that was all around the Hebrew people. That's the God they were hearing about. And as they started to tell this completely different story about God, it's very interesting because the characters are still there, the waters of chaos are still there, but now the spirit of God is hovering like a chicken over its eggs, hovering over the chaos until something new is born. And when I look at the wrath around us these days, politically, in our churches, my own United Methodist church is getting ready to break apart. one of my go-to words of hope that I, I say to myself and to anyone who will listen one is that the spirit of God is hovering over the chaos and something new is about to be born and just hold on.
Hold on and be midwives to that new birth. Keep your eyes open for what the new thing that's coming that's really gonna usher a different way of life than what we've had.
Barbara: That's true. Really lovely. Our text today doesn't specifically say our bodies are bad, but I do believe that many people think our bodies are bad. Our bodies are sinful and yes, we can act in sinful ways, but this creation story. Says that our bodies are good. And then there's different ways throughout the Bible where we humans have just bungled lots and lots of things. And we do sin, but what God created is good.
Sarah: and not only good, but with the human beings, that's when God says it's very good. Emphasized even more. And why else would God become a body? What is the incarnation other than Christ and even the understanding of being born of Mary?
The Virgin Mary isn't about your body being sinful if you're having sex, that's not at all what they were dealing with. What they were trying to get across is that bodies- from being conceived in a womb and all the bloodiness of being born, that that's good. And that's the way God wants it to be.
And it's blessed. And so for God to become fully human, God's gonna go through that fully human experience of having a body and not just pretending, not just dipping a big toe into life and death, but actually fully living and fully dying. And then there's resurrection.
Barbara: And now we're full circle again, because as Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden of Eden, one of the conditions that God had mentioned was a painful childbirth.
Sarah: Hmm. I haven't worked on that piece of the story so much, but I think that's just more of kind of a description of what actually happens and that God recognizes it's happening, but I still don't see in the text that God is saying, I'm doing this to punish you.
And maybe it's a consequence in some way of our not right relationships, but it's not a punishment. it's not a condemnation. I believe for now, no condemnation goes from the beginning all the way through. And any time somebody thinks God is condemning somebody, they've missed the mark, they're off base.
Barbara: we've got law and gospel, so we can't deny in Bible there is a bunch of judgment and in the Bible is an awful lot of grace and love and forgiveness and redemption.
Sarah: those laws, those bright lines, if you think of it more as this mandate, as these methods, these ways of getting free, and they're tried and true, they've done well by people for a long time, but sometimes also, there's a tendency of making more and more hedges. Making that line brighter and brighter to honor that central piece. And sometimes those can be too bright, too strong, too stringent, especially if we start turning and judging people for not keeping the law.
Barbara: cause we're not earning our salvation by keeping the law.
Sarah: Exactly. That's the danger.
Barbara: I know that some people to this day are still hearing really strong, critical messages.
They feel condemned, they feel wretched. And we don't want to say, Oh, everything you do is perfect. Don't worry. You don't have to change - I believe what we are saying is God loves you as you are. And there is hope. And from my soul to your soul, maybe there's something that we can hold each other accountable for, like you said in love, but that we're not throwing you in jail spiritually, and then throwing away the key.
So how can we take a look at resources that are available to people, with this message of love and grace?
Sarah: there's some really good research out there now about the formation of habits, how you can't rely just on your own willpower. I've learned self-control works better with a group effort when you have that support those people you can talk to, that compassion- and you learn to have compassion for yourself, too.
There's a whole field called parts work that looks at our internal selves as having multiple parts doing different things. All trying to meet needs, but some of the ways that they've been doing it don't serve us well. So, back to food addiction, cause I just know it well, one of the parts is the controller who says, I'm not going to eat this.
And you can do that for so long. But sometimes your willpower is going to give up. And then there's the indulge that says, Oh, you've worked so hard and you just succeeded at this. You deserve a little something. You've had a bad day. So those two parts kind of fight against each other, which goes right into what Paul is saying, I do what I don't want to do and you don't do what I want to do- if you can understand that those are parts of you, but it's not your whole self. You put your best self in the driver's seat, and you take those other parts, you treat them like you would your beloved children. You don't put them in the trunk, but you sit them in the back seat with the seatbelt on and you listen to them because they're trying to meet a need. Well, what else can I do to reward myself after a tough day? I can have a bubble bath, I can go take a walk, I can call my friend Barbara. There's other ways is that I can get my needs met that will make them better. And how can I not have to have the controller always in control? How do I let that relax every once in a while?
Barbara: I know that we still have the old fashioned way of just sitting with our Bibles and having prayer time in meditation and maybe journaling. And that really works for some people. I have to admit that for me, being a participant in a Bible study is much more helpful. I'm perfectly capable of sitting in quiet and that doesn't really bother me, but it just kind of helps me to focus.
Do you have any favorite resources that people could turn to some resources to check out a way of connecting with God?
Sarah: one of the best resources I've been using since my girls were born- they're 15 months apart- my prayer life got really interrupted for a while. And then I found this wonderful podcast called Pray as You Go. It has its own app and there are Jesuits from England and they put out six podcasts a week and they pick one scripture passage, they always integrate music and they do a little bit of Lectio Divina. They read a little bit the passage and they give you a question and some time to think about it.
Another place and people that I've really appreciated is the center for action and contemplation in Albuquerque led by father Richard Rohr, and there's a podcast with father Richard called Another Name for Everything. And one of the other teachers at the center, James Finley, teaches contemplative prayer and he's got a nice podcast there, too. And with the food addiction, what I found that really helped me is something called bright line eating- it's been really wonderful and it's really working for people.
Barbara: Thank you so much, Sarah, I just got such a sense of God's love from talking to you
Sarah: Thank you. I've enjoyed it.
Resources:
Genesis 2:15 – 3:24
Nonviolent Communication https://www.cnvc.org/learn-nvc/articles
Pray as You Go Podcast https://pray-as-you-go.org
Another Name for Everything Podcast https://cac.org/podcast/another-name-for-every-thing/
Bright Line Eating: The Science of Living Happy, Thin, and Free by Susan Peirce Thompson, Ph.D.