Barbara: Today's topic is racism and our guest is Jennifer Hamrick. This episode is the second half of a conversation that Jennifer and I started last week. You don't have to listen to last week's episode first, but just so you know, it includes information about a trans racial adoption that Jennifer and her family completed a few years ago, along with the beginning of her journey, to learn more about racism in the United States today, we're going to be continuing that conversation.
Jennifer: people ask us all the time, where did you get her? And we were like, Virginia from Virginia.
So it was novel to us. We were newly adoptive parents. We had never experienced that before. And we were in awe of her beauty as well, because she was the most beautiful baby in the world. And so we understood why people were asking, but it does cause people to feel very uncomfortable.
So it's just best not to ask where did you get her or how much did your adoption costs or did she come from foster care those kinds of things are private questions and we don't generally walk up to somebody and ask them about their medical things. Like, so what kind of problems do you have or what kind of issues do you have?
We don't ask marriage questions like that. We allow those questions to be private, but when it comes to someone who's adopted into a family and it's obvious those questions seem to be okay. And again, for someone like me, who has. pretty open personality. People generally, who are asking, they generally know me and they're okay.
And I'm willing to set a boundary. but there are other people who are very private and they are not comfortable answering the questions and as well, this is Anna's story. And so I want to protect Anna and her story. So I've made sure whatever I've shared.
has been approved by her birth mom. Her first mom should have a say in this and she is anyway. So that's kind of how we look at it through the lens of the point you brought up. Sure.
Barbara: I have a few very slightly different words from a different translation of Micah chapter six, verse eight, and this one is from the message: “but he's already made it plain how to live, what to do, what God is looking for in men and women. It's quite simple. Do what is fair and just to your neighbor, be compassionate and loyal in your love. And don't take yourself too seriously. Take God seriously.
Jennifer, what are your thoughts about fairness and compassion?
Jennifer: for someone to want things to be fair they need to have compassion. I think those are together in that, for a white person in this context, most things have been more in our favor. We were talking about mortgages earlier- if I want those to be fair, that might mean I need to look at how it's not for the other person, cause I'm doing okay over here. You know, as the white person, my mortgage rate is lower. If I want things to be fair, that means I have to go and look the other way. A lot of times we only want fairness and we only pay attention to fairness when we're the ones who are getting the short end of the stick.
And speaking of that, that makes me question, I'm going to write this down. So I am constantly wondering about phrases that we use that have racist background. I'm going to jot that down and look it up. And I may have you removed that if it is- and you may leave it in because this is how you continue learning.
It goes back to that humility and not to take yourself too seriously. I just used the phrase short end of the stick, and I've just got to thinking, I wonder where that came from? Could that be disrespectful to some particular group of people? So I'm going to research that and that's just a small example of how I can walk humbly, I can love others. I can show kindness.
Barbara: As a follow-up I received further details from Jennifer about this. The first possibility is that when harnessing a matched team of animals, one uses a stick called an evener, which is attached by a pin at its center to the wagon or farm implement. Each end of the evener is attached to the harness of each draft animal.
When pulling with two animals of different sizes, an unmatched team, you adjust the stick towards the side near the larger animal. Each animal is then pulling an amount of weight corresponding to its size. Thus, the term evener. The larger animal is pulling more of the load because he or she has the short end of the stick.
Another example that was similar to this, but with people, a person who had the short end of the stick was carrying a heavier load than the other person. So what does all this farm stuff have to do with this conversation? First of all, we wanted to check if short end of the stick had any potential racial implications.
In other words, was it maybe an archaic term that was used long ago that we were not familiar with that we somehow could be demeaning a group of people. And it appears in this case that the answer is no, it's about farm animals. I know that many people do very heavy farm work as well.
Honestly, this was a light bulb moment for me because I started to sing Handel's Messiah when I was in high school, and I didn't understand why one song in the Messiah quoted the book of Matthew chapter 11, verse 30, which says “his yoke is easy”. Actually, in the book of Matthew, Jesus says “my yoke is easy”, but in the Messiah, Handel wrote his yoke is easy. I thought a yoke was a heavy piece of wood linking to working animals and I could not imagine why it would be easy. At some point I heard in a sermon the interpretation that we are yoked with Jesus and he carries the heavier load of our yoke. When I heard that sermon, I was not familiar with the origin of the expression short end of the stick.
It has just come to my mind during this conversation and follow-up that if we mix our metaphors here, Jesus has the short end of the stick when it comes to sharing our load of work! My mind is just blown.
Jennifer: So I think for me, if I want to be concerned with fairness, I need to be concerned with those who are not receiving fairness. a lot of times we only look for that when we're the ones being treated unfairly.
We don't notice it when it's someone else being treated unfairly. So to want to do that, requires compassion. I have to have compassion for that person or for that group of people who may not be being treated with fairness. So that's how I would answer that question.
Barbara: Thank you. And I really agree with you that you hope that this conversation will give others the nudge to start listening to the voices of authority on this subject, which is Black and Brown people who are writing and speaking boldly.
Could you suggest a couple of resources for people who would like to know more?
Jennifer: I went through this journey by myself. First of all, I started it by looking up adoption resources and just digging headfirst in.
I mentioned that first one earlier, and there were very few that had a Christian bent and it wasn't until last October, 2019, that Be the Bridge the book was released. So I did all of my initial research using secular resources, which I highly recommend. I'm not putting those down at all.
And I think it's very shallow if we only look at this context or this subject from a Christian perspective, we need to find out what everybody is saying on this topic, because otherwise we can't have compassion for those people. I read a number of books that were secular and I may not have appreciated I don't know all of the life choices as a Christian, but I totally could understand their pain in how they were treated as a result of something as God given as the color of their skin. Like something that God gave them to be intentional, like God was intentional with how he made our bodies and yet that could cause them to be mistreated. So from now on, it's probably always going to be, Be the Bridge because man, how neat to be able to start my research, looking at this through the lens of Christ.
And then Emanuel Acho’s “Uncomfortable Conversations With a Black Man.” Emmanuel is a former football player. I had to look that up cause I knew that he was a former sportsman, but that's not where I know him from. I know him from these conversations- he sits down on a set and he has an uncomfortable conversation with someone. And I think that those are great sounding boards and great springboards.
I love that both of the resources I've just given you are centering the voices of Black individuals who are choosing to speak into this space right now. Another one is the AND campaign and they use the ampersand as their symbol. And that is a campaign that combines Biblical convictions and social justice. So phenomenal resources founded and run by Black individuals. I really do hope to point people to the Black people who are speaking into this space because they are the authorities on this subject. They've lived it. All I want to do is point people to Christ, but I also want people as they are looking for Christ to look for the way Christ hurts for marginalized people.
Barbara: I'm grateful, Jennifer, that you mentioned that there are some resources that are kind of secular in nature. They don't really talk about church or faith or anything. And there's other resources that do talk about faith matters. And one thing that really breaks my heart is that I know that we are all saints and sinners and sometimes churches hurt people.
Or sometimes people who are part of faith groups say things or do things. So I am grateful that we have the gift of discernment and maybe I'm not always wise in my decisions, but I can look at a bunch of different stuff and pull truth and try to see that there are people who mean well and who still make mistakes and who still do things wrong.
And there's resources to be had all over the place that can support and encourage this justice that we're talking about. You don't have to go to church to promote justice or something like that, but this is a call especially to people who are listening who may have faith, but we're not saying you have to belong to a church to promote justice, but then you are invited and you are welcome.
And that we are coming from a place of love and openness and inclusivity.
Jennifer: Fantastic.
Barbara: I'm wondering Jennifer, where is the fear in this topic? Why is this a problem? And that's a huge question. I don't mean to open a can of worms. I wish this could have already been taken care of and I feel so frustrated that this unfairness in this unjustness is still happening. So I'm wondering, as you've been reading and learning and studying and interacting with people, where is the fear around this whole topic? This whole situation?
Jennifer: I think one angle of fear is white people are afraid if they admit they have biases or have done racist things, they're admitting that they are a horrible person, so it's easier to just completely deny the entire topic and just push it away and shame anybody who is talking about it. One of the ways this fear manifests is by saying, well, If you would just stop talking about it, it would go away.
And as we all know, someone with cancer or mental illness or a broken bone, you don't just stop talking about it to make it go away. You have to actually address it.
Barbara: I wonder if that's another situation of privilege? In my privilege, I can ignore it and my life won't be too badly affected. But then I'm ignoring the people who are very much affected by it.
Jennifer: the fear comes from admitting that we may have done, something wrong, thoughts, something wrong, or we might be wrong. And honestly, that's not what this whole journey is about. This whole journey is about recognizing, that all people.
We're created in the image of God and not all people are treated as such. so I think that's one fear. And then I don't know exactly which population of people has this fear, but, a lot of people fear that they're going to have to, share their wealth or give up half of their belongings so that other people can have their stuff. And I think that's been a prevalent message throughout the election season. And I think that if you look at scripture what did Jesus say to the rich man?
Barbara: Matthew 19:16-22 from The Message":
A man stopped Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” Jesus said, “Why do you question me about what’s good? God is the One who is good. If you want to enter the life of God, just do what he tells you.” The man asked, “What in particular?” Jesus said, “Don’t murder, don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, don’t lie, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as you do yourself.” The young man said, “I’ve done all that. What’s left?” “If you want to give it all you’ve got,” Jesus replied, “go sell your possessions; give everything to the poor. All your wealth will then be in heaven. Then come follow me.” That was the last thing the young man expected to hear. And so, crestfallen, he walked away. He was holding on tight to a lot of things, and he couldn’t bear to let go.
Jennifer: we have a fear of loss. And I have read from some Black individuals who speak to the matter, white people have a fear of a loss of their status in this culture, and what that tells me is that white people do know that there's a privilege to being white. We have the privilege of pretending we don't have a privilege.
Barbara: Right. I'm not asking you personally, I know you would give every shred of clothing in your house if that's what you believe that you were being called to do. I'm not asking you to do that, but I'm willing to pay more taxes so that we can have a different system than what we have now in terms of benefits and oppression and things like that. I would say even fear of losing power.
Jennifer: That's a big one. My kid applied for a job today and he clicked, when it says, ethnicity, I clicked white. I was with him, we were sitting together and that may harm his chances of getting a job at this restaurant because they may have a desire to hire someone of color.
And I'm okay with that. If my son doesn't get the job and someone else does, and it's because they have been in a less privileged position. I'm okay with that, that doesn't bother me. That doesn't threaten me. but that's partly because I have been doing this work. I have a feeling that might've bothered me five years ago, six years ago, actually five years ago, I was really doing this work because we found out about Anna November 4th, five years ago.
So five and a half years ago I would have probably had a different answer. So I think that's a really good point to make that I'm willing to make changes in my life that maybe change my status or my position.
Barbara: It could be fear that he would lose this job opportunity. If the hiring people say for whatever reason, we have two equally qualified candidates, let's hire the candidate who did not check off white and we're both saying we're absolutely willing for that.
And I believe in your book, you mentioned that affirmative action started off within the white hiring culture, but I don't remember exactly what you said. I don't have it open right in front of me.
Jennifer: I really wish I could recall the details off the top of my head as well, but it is a very good thing to research.
I believe I heard that on the uncivil podcast where they talked about the affirmative action was actually designed to benefit white individuals and they gave them land. So that terminology ended up being used differently later on, but originally it was designed to benefit white people in this country.
And, so it's just kind of interesting that that's one of those things we were not taught in our education system.
Barbara: And it may be fair to say that people are upset or depending, I guess, on who you are, where you're sitting, what your view of it is that affirmative action isn't fair.
I was curious, Jennifer, are there any other elephants in the room that we have not talked about yet when it comes to race or adoption or anything else that's on your heart?
Jennifer: My last piece of advice or my last little thing I want to talk about is something I heard in a book I'm reading right now called White Awake. I heard it because I'm listening to it on audio. So I mix those words up, heard and read it. It's by Daniel Hill. And I think you'll appreciate this particular book because it's written by a minister about his desire to minister, to people in marginalized communities.
So, it's been a fantastic book for me as a chaplain's wife and as someone who wants to love others in the form of ministry, as we do these Be the Bridge groups in our home. So it's been a really good read, but the advice that I would like to just highlight is that he said when a white person is wanting to learn and they really desire to connect with people of color or diversify their friendships, go into the friendship and let that person know what you want of them.
So the example he gave was he was talking about race and racism with a friend and she broke down crying and he tried to find out why are you crying? And she said, I'll be honest- I really do want to help you with this. But. This really brings up a lot of pain for me. So our black and Brown friends are exhausted.
They've been exhausted for as long as I've been here, but this specific year is a different and a deeper exhaustion. And, so not all of them are going to be in a space where they want to have these conversations with white people. So that is one of the reasons I love be the bridge because.
That organization is pulling together people of color who are interested and have the energy and the desire to have these conversations. So. I recently gave advice to someone who read my book and they go, Oh, I've got this one friend, which is kind of a cliche, but I've got this friend. I want to ask her all these questions I wrote to this person and said, okay, before you ask any questions, I want you to send a note and it needs to sound something like this.
Hi, I just read a book on racial reconciliation and I would like to ask you some questions, but I know that this is a challenging topic, especially for right now. Is that something you'd be willing to talk to me about, if not, I completely understand. so that would be my advice. We need to approach our friends of color, understanding that they may not be in a space to have the conversation right now.
Barbara: And is it fair? Which in my mind, the answer is no. To assume that one person can and should speak for a large group of people. And that could be a whole bunch of different categories. And to honor that there's already a lot of stuff out there. So it might be easier for me to just check in with someone who I already know.
Whereas you have literally pages and pages of websites and books and podcasts, and it's all out there. They don't have to buy your book to get the list either to just Google it. and you've mentioned a few great ones. Why don't people who are interested to learn more avail of what's already there and yeah, sure.
Talk with your friends, but to not expect them to take their time, because if we're the. 10th or the 50th person, you know, how do we honor where everybody's at? And even, you know, I had someone email me something and I'm like, yeah, I'll get to it. I have three homework assignments due and then they emailed me again and I'm like, I'm getting to it. I got to prioritize my time and that is a totally frivolous example. But, thank you for honoring people's time and their emotional capacity. And you know, what's already out there for us, for anyone.
Jennifer: Absolutely. Well, a lot of times we come to this conversation like, wow, I've just learned this new stuff and I'm raring to go and I'm going to fix it.
I'm going to find a way. And the best thing to do is a lot of learning on your own. do a lot of reading, podcasts, whatever. Approach your friends with gentleness and with an out, give them an out so that there's not this feeling of obligation. and also join organizations that are already created.
There are plenty out there that are working to do this. And when I read waking up white is another white author who's written about this. And one of the things she said was she wanted to go out and start a new organization, and she's like, wait a minute.
That's not what I need to do. I need to join organizations that are already doing the work. so we don't need to be ready to save the day. We need to just join where others are already doing that.
Barbara: Great. And that also makes me think what are my needs, and what are the needs of a lot of other people out there?
So in this case, my need to like, I'm so excited about this. I want to talk to everybody about it. Okay, great. But how can we honor each other? In our excitement and wanting to address this. And yeah.
Jennifer: So if it goes back to the compact yeah, exactly. If my eagerness is hurting someone else, because we've had a lot going on this year, if my eagerness to learn and do, and B is not compassionate, then I'm not doing the part where it says walk humbly with your God.
Barbara: To the best of my understanding your Financial Peace University and your Be the Bridge have been in the capacity of a faith community or a chapel. Is this something that just anybody can go online and find something near them but it doesn't have to be kind of through a church or an organized faith group?
Jennifer: Both of the organizations are biblical organizations and they are very upfront about that. However, we have had people go through financial peace who are of no faith background and the principles are perfectly adherable even if you are not a person of faith. So neither one are Bible studies necessarily. So their foundation is the scripture, and you'll find scripture where they back up what they say, but neither one are Bible studies. So they are definitely available for people, even if they are not.
And just Google them.
Barbara: I'd be just as happy to send everyone over to you folks, but not everybody's going to be able to get to you. And I don't know if there's online opportunities or not, but I'd look forward to digging in more.
Jennifer: Perfect. Well, thanks for having me today.
Barbara: Thank you so much for your time and wisdom.
Resources:
Micah 6:8
Matthew 11:30
Matthew 19:16-22
Be The Bridge https://bethebridge.com/
Financial Peace University https://www.daveramsey.com/classes
And Campaign https://www.andcampaign.org/
Emmanuel Acho https://uncomfortableconvos.com/
White Awake by Daniel Hill
Waking Up White by Debby Irving
Once You See Racism by Jennifer Hamrick
www.ucc.org “White Privilege: Let's Talk” curriculum
https://gimletmedia.com/shows/uncivil