Immigration with Jay — 40 Minutes of Faith

Immigration with Jay

Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 Minutes of Faith. My name is Barbara Cox and today's topic is immigration and the Bible. Our guest is the Reverend Dr. Javier (Jay) Alanis. I met Jay during a January course in Texas about borderlands and theology. As I've mentioned before, it's difficult for me to address professors by name, but that seems to be the way these days.

Jay is currently the associate professor of theology culture and mission of the Lutheran school of theology at Chicago, a joint program of Wartburg theological seminary. He is also the executive director of the Lutheran extension program located at the Episcopal seminary of the Southwest in Austin, Texas. Prior to his academic appointment, he served as pastor of Trinity Lutheran church in San Antonio from 1992 to 1996.

He is a lifelong Lutheran born in San Juan, Texas. Jay was part of a panel that examined the subject of border walls at international conferences held in Berlin and in Wittenberg, Germany. He holds a Juris doctorate degree, a master of divinity and a doctor of philosophy degree. Jay, how did you go from completing law school to seminary?

Jay: I was doing a lot of public ministry in my practice of law and people seem to recognize or discern a sense of call on my life. And that prompted me to do a lot of prayer and a lot of discerning conversation with other folks and including the seminary and church bishops.

And, they recommended that I seek theological education at the seminary where I now serve as director. And that's how I ended up being a pastor and then going on to get a PhD.

Barbara: I know that that's been a blessing in many lives. Today we will offer several Bible passages throughout our discussion about immigration. Jay has prepared a visual presentation for those watching on YouTube.

Jay: being a person of the borderlands, being born and raised about 20 miles from the U.S. - Mexico border has given me a certain lens by which to examine the current political asylum and refugee issues that are confronting the nation and the church and all people of faith.

Barbara: Let's start at the beginning. I offer to read the book of Genesis, the third chapter, verse 23 at the very front of your Bible. So verse 23 from the New Revised Standard Version is: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Jay: anthropologists and social scientists have pointed out to us that humans, the homo sapiens species have been migrants from the very beginning from the dawn of civilization.

They have done all of the archeological work in Africa, for example, including, with a program such as ancestry DNA, which traces our bloodlines all the way to Africa. So Adam and Eve, as part of the narrative of the Bible gives us that insight into, the first migrants who are forced to migrate, out of a failure of trust in God.

And so leaving the garden of plenty, they're forced to wander in the wilderness. And that's so much like many people today throughout the world, they have to leave their comfort zone, their land of promise, the land of heritage, and they're forced to flee for X number of reasons- political, social, economic, and more.

Barbara: I would like to read three verses out of Genesis chapter 12 verses one through 20: I'm going to read verses one and verses nine and 10. Now the Lord said to Abraham, go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you and Abraham journeyed on by stages toward the Negeb. Now there was a famine in the land. So Abraham went down to Egypt to reside there as an alien for the famine was severe in the land.

Jay: I like to remind the church and remind my students that from the very earliest, reference in the Bible, we have the story of Abraham and Sarah being those wandering migrants, in the desert of their native countries. And so, in reference to their flight to Egypt, wandering Abraham and Sarah are a people of the diaspora who become economic refugees in Egypt, fleeing famine. They travel to the Egyptian empire to seek sustenance for their family.

They cross over into a land of promise, hoping to alleviate their hunger. How many refugees do the same today? We see them at the U.S.- Mexico border come seeking aid with little but their faith in God. And how do we receive them? The church, I believe, is called to offer aid and sustenance in the name of the Holy one who accompanied Abraham and Sarah on their journey to Egypt.

And so I pray: “Lord, help us to receive the Sojourner with helping hands.”

Barbara: I believe that diaspora means of people who are scattered. So they came from one place and then they kind of ended up all over the place.

Jay: people migrate for many different reasons. And so even now we're seeing the diaspora of the people of Venezuela. For example, I was seeing a program last night on Frontline, and of course the people of Puerto Rico know that experience first-hand, throughout their history as a territory of the United States. So they flee for political reasons, economic reasons.

And often they are forced to flee. And so they scatter, to any land that will take them. And so it was with Abraham and Sarah, they knew that Egypt was a powerful nation where there was food that they could receive for their sustenance. And that's the logical place for them to go, where they would find refuge and sanctuary.

Barbara: we've got another slide for viewers on YouTube, and we'll explain it for listeners. This first map shows the departure from Ur in Babylon, which I believe is contemporary Iraq up along the rivers, and then down through what is now Israel towards Egypt. And then we leave Egypt. We as a people, not we right now.

Jay: [the book of Exodus] is a classic text that my African American friends, students and community referred to as their texts of promise. it's that, theological grounding and reference for their own migration stories, out of slavery, for example, in the United States, that's something that we're still wrestling with as far as the consequences of that part of our history. In the story of the Hebrew nation, they flee, because of Moses who was an instrument of God that was used to go and confront the political power of his day, Pharaoh, with speaking truth to power, a narrative, that nation is forced to therefore liberate the Hebrew people who had been suffering, the social economic and political, and probably religious persecution over 400 years. So we are reminded that this story is still a living story for people who are fleeing that kind of persecution and seeking liberation from bondage, including human trafficking.

And so this becomes a part of the story that we continue to tell. And reference as part of the human story of liberation and seeking liberation from those things that chain people and keep people in chained to various bondages.

Barbara: there are many different examples that we see over history and in contemporary times. And we also know that a route out of bondage or a rout to escape to sanctuary can be circuitous- it's often not a straight line. So historically, we have the Exodus, wandering for 40 years, and then we have folks these days coming and not just from South America and central America North into the United States, but also from other countries. They may end up in Mexico trying to come into the United States, but they may have originated from across either ocean.

Jay: That is so true, Barbara. In fact, as part of my ministry, I have taken students to the home for displace migrants here in Austin. It's a ministry that began between the Lutheran and Episcopal communities back in the 1980s during the war in El Salvador.

And it has been serving the migrant community ever since. And, we get to hear the stories of people from all over the world, from all over Africa, South America, Asia, somehow these folks find their way to freedom, so to speak by ending up in Austin and this home for displaced migrants. And when you get to hear their stories, you can't help but be moved, because they have traveled through such perilous terrains and through jungles, and through desert. And the stories are backed up by a series that was documented on Frontline that I happened to see last week, a journalist traveling with people through the jungles of Columbia and Panama in central America. As people migrate North to get to the U.S. - Mexico border seeking freedom from their political persecution in various countries.

So you're absolutely right. People come here from all over the world and they come here fleeing persecution. And they traveled through the circuitous routes to get here.

Barbara: And I just want to emphasize that my understanding of political persecution is much more severe than just kind of mudslinging like we have now. I believe people judge each other quite harshly and perhaps they believe that they're justified, perhaps they are. But the political persecution that we're talking about that people flee from frankly, is murder. People's families are threatened. There's extortion, there's egregious violence.

Jay: Absolutely, Barbara, it's a matter of life and death for these folks. And, what we sometimes forget is that they are also a people of faith and we get to hear that in the stories that they relate to us at this home for displaced migrants.

They come bearing only their faith, God, in this flight to freedom and their flight is based on a matter of life and death. They lose family members to persecution, and sometimes they don't make it through the journey. It's very heart- wrenching for us to hear as a people of faith. And that is why we are moved to act to do something about this situation.

And to provide a place of hospitality, of welcome of refuge, of sanctuary, a place where they can rest from this long journey to freedom.

Barbara: It never occurred to me until just right now, Jay, is it possible that our modern day refugees have even less on their backs than people fleeing Egypt? Didn't they have tents and animals and sort of a great caravan as they wandered out of Egypt and through the desert for all those years?

Jay: That's certainly the perception that they brought their goods or their belongings with them. Of course, it wouldn't have been much considering they had been slaves, but they brought what they could with the little they have. Current refugees bring nothing but the shirt on their back and the sad part is they often get robbed along the way and lose everything that they bring with them.

Barbara: I can also list the textbooks that we read for the January course on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith for additional resources. How much water can you even carry, and how did they survive (or not)? Unfortunately.

Jay: that's a very good point.

Barbara: what is the Exilic period? I can read the years here, 1836 to 2020 along the U.S. - Mexico border.

Jay: I was literally born on the U.S. - Mexico border. I make the connection of the story of my parents and grandparents fleeing Mexico 100 years ago during the Mexican revolution of 1910, which lasted through 1920.

And so they became members of the diaspora, fleeing economic and political persecution in Mexico. And they crossed the border into South Texas, to a place where they had family members and they could find refuge. And so the exilic period makes reference to the time when Texas was declared a Republic independent of Mexico in 1836.

And it's a time when the border crossed native peoples of the borderlands, including Texas, it crossed them overnight. For native Tejanos, people of Mexican heritage, indigenous peoples living in Texas for millennia, the U.S. - Mexico border crossed us, and all of a sudden they found themselves being aliens in their own land.

And so, the exilic period refers to a people of exile who are forced into exile by a political declaration of independence by another culture. And it continues through today in the sense that we continue to receive immigrants from Mexico and from Latin America.

And we're continually reminded that our neighbors are people who live in exile. And it's also a reference to the oral history of, for example, my family, the oral history that informs me and my consciousness and my conscience of who I am as a descendant of people who had to flee a revolution and become a people of exile. And so this period of exilic experience really doesn't end. It continues throughout human history. And it certainly continues in and along the us Mexico border.

Barbara: it was arbitrarily created on paper by human beings. And then you could have from one town to the next, all of a sudden you're in Mexico and you're in the United States. Bam, here it is with all the upheaval going on, people then said, okay, I need to be somewhere safe. Imagine!

Jay: I'm reminded of a story of the rector of San Fernando cathedral. When several years ago, we took our January term students to visit the cathedral and to hear his story. And he reminded the group that in 1836 with that declaration, most of the people who lived in San Antonio were native Tejanos or people of Mexican heritage, they lost their land or their property within one year of that declaration.

Barbara: And I didn't learn that as a kid, when I took U. S. History, it was, Hey, Mexico, and the United States had this big fight. I'm just generalizing- and now Texas is part of us. Yay. If you can forgive a little touch of sarcasm here, but nobody talked about what people lost or it could have been really mixed feelings.

Jay: who gets to write our history? But we have the advantage of oral history. So we don't forget the roots of our origins in our context where we come from. So

Barbara: is the third space, sort of the human and geophysical space along the border that could have people from both nations on either side of that border, either in their hearts or just physically where they are?

Jay: Yes. This third space is what I refer to that middle space where people's identity is something to, ambiguity and where it fluctuates. because we are living, between two countries at the same time. Therefore all people of the borderlands I can safely say are living in this third space, that has been constructed artificially by let's say a political system that all of a sudden places a line on the map and says, this is the border. And so we're having to navigate daily what it means to be a quote unquote, Mexican slash American slash or any other group that ends up here in the borderlands as a people from another space.

But that enters this liminal space, which is what I referred to this liminal space of ambiguity, where our identity is questioned and where we question our identity as well, because we're forced to question it. Well, when you're having to navigate life between two cultures at the same time.

Barbara: we'll say more about that coming up, but we want to reintroduce the Bible to this conversation in a way that I didn't pay attention to in Sunday school. I thought, okay, Jesus was born and then he grew up in Nazareth, but there's something really important that happens between the birth and Nazareth as it relates to our conversation today.

I'm going to read Matthew chapter two, verse 14, which Matthew is one of the gospels past the halfway Mark in your Bible. And the new revised standard version says this: Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night and went to Egypt.

So we've got a visual here for folks on YouTube, an arrow leading from Bethlehem to Egypt, and then other arrows leading out of Egypt and to Nazareth. So keep reading in Matthew and you'll get more of the story. And Jay, you have some parallels to tell us about modern day flights.

Jay: Yes indeed. In fact, I have traveled this route. Several years ago, I traveled to Israel. I travel from there to Cairo. So I was able to see firsthand just how intense that desert is. And so I could only imagine the Holy family having to make that trek across the desert to get to Alexandria. I equate that experience and that physical desert similar to the Sonoran desert in Northern Mexico, the deadliest desert which migrants cross through to get to the U. S. - Mexico border in Arizona.

It's not for nothing that many people refugees died in that day. They die in the heat of the desert, trying to cross into a place of refuge. I want to point out from this text is that Matthew relates the story of the Holy family who flee to Egypt to escape the persecution of Herod . Joseph, Mary and Jesus become political refugees in the empire of their day. They flee to escape the death squads that Herod ordered against the innocent. And Jesus was the undocumented child of his day and a homeless displaced migrant. Like his family, many flee the death squads of their native countries.

And arrive at our southern borders seeking asylum and refuge. And so I asked church, how shall we receive those who bring Jesus with them? And so I offer the prayer: “merciful God, help us to give shelter to the displaced homeless at our borders and to advocate for just and humane treatment of our global neighbors.”

Jesus' identity is rooted in his culture. As a Galilean Jew, he will speak in the dialect of his community. He will learn to speak Aramaic and read the Torah in Hebrew. He will be influenced by the Hellenistic culture of the region, the crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa, then the border States of the U S we call the spoken language, Spanglish or text mix, a mixture of English and Spanish, and many who traveled to our borders, bring their accents with them and are identified as foreigner. In time, they will adopt the dialect of the region in their effort to survive in a new country. I like to point out that language is a tool of empowerment and all cultures are defined by their linguistic heritage.

And we should not fear languages we do not understand but hear them as an opportunity to learn about the worldview of others who come here. In other words, language in today's world is politicized and, and used against. people who have a different accent than our own.

And no one in on earth, is accent less. We all come from a certain place. We all have an accent and we are all, people of God. And so language should be used as is as a gift, and not as a tool to, for us others.

Barbara: we have managed to turn language into hate. And even folks from different areas of the United States pronounce words or have certain phrases. And sometimes it seems like we use those against each other.

Jay: language is a worldview. So if you learn something about that language, you're going to, to learn about, an entirely different perhaps theological worldview that enriches our own. When we deliberately crossed that, a border within ourselves and are willing to engage the other, who is different from us and who has something to teach us.

Jay: when we engage the immigrant, who has a different faith experience as our own, we might be threatened by that difference, but we really shouldn't be.

In fact, we should be very careful. And treat with a lot of respect, the faith of the Sojourner of justice, Abraham and Sarah had their faith when they traveled out of earth. And when they traveled to Egypt, they took their faith stories with them. And here in Texas, our lady of Guadalupe is very prominent. Because she is symbol and sign of the redemptive narrative of the Mexican people who were conquered by the Spaniards.

And they're still living out of that sense of redemptive history that the Virgin of Guadalupe provides that community of faith. And we should treat. The, faith experience of the sojourner of the foreigner with great respect. And we should be careful not to violate their dignity and especially their culture, but to respect it as our own.

Barbara: One thing that I learned this January was that not all immigrants from either Mexico or other Latin American or South American countries are Catholic. That was a false assumption that I had. So I was grateful to learn that and I believe, but I just want to double check also, Jay, that we're not only talking about since this is a Christian based.

Podcasts that we're not talking only about welcoming people of a common Christian faith, but also people of any faith at all, or no faith at all.

Jay: Thank you for pointing that out, Barbara. I've heard the stories from the migrants at the home of displace migrants here in Austin and also in Laredo. People who come here, come with their faith stories of whatever origin. So we are called to treat their faith stories with great respect and not to be threatened by them. It's part of the rich tapestry of God's people and of the faith stories that cover the globe and that informed people's relationship with themselves and their God, and with themselves and their neighbors.

Barbara: I believe some people come from a place of fear and that that will reflect in a manner of hypocrisy. So if I fear “where is my money going? Why is my money being used to support people who aren't from here or who don't belong here?”

And I don't believe that at all. I'm asking that as a rhetorical question to illustrate a point: how are we clinging to what we have? At the exclusion of others. And frankly, I think that that comes across as hypocritical. If many people are claiming to come from a place of faith or a place even of Christianity to say, “get out, we don't want you here.” That really hurts my heart.

Jay: fear as a place of departure for relating to the neighbor is in fact, very destructive, not only to the neighbor, but to oneself. And so we really have to ground ourselves in a theology of promise. In the theology of, sharing of hospitality and truly, a theology of abundance.

If we believe that creators is the creator of all, then we need to place our trust in the one who provides for us- in fact, even looks after the sparrow.

Barbara: I believe in good fiscal stewardship and being wise. And I don't mind being very generous. I don't mind paying taxes to support other people's neediness. And yet I understand that that's a conversation of balance. And at the same time, there are many examples of it's not going to run out. And also, unfortunately we have examples of greed. So there are detention centers, as well as prisons that are actually making a profit.

So they made a proposal, they won the bid, they are getting the money and people are taking money home on the backs of the residents of these frankly interment camps, these prisons, these places where immigrants are staying, who are not getting. Sufficient food and shelter and that's of what you have on this slide from the United nations.

Jay: the Emmaus story, is a post resurrection story that offers us a view of the gift of hospitality. And as you were saying, sharing of food at our table, we have heard the story of the two disciples who meet up with Jesus on the road to Emmaus.

He joins them and explains the scriptures to them in their struggle to understand the unjust death of their teacher. They invite him, came into their home for the evening and offer him the hospitality of their table. They see him revealed in the breaking of the bread, an unexpected epiphany that changed the direction of their lives.

Amazing things happen when we extend the gift of hospitality to the stranger among us. So Lord help us to see you at the table that we prepare for the strangers of our communities. And the United nation declaration of human rights informs our conscience, by referencing the right, not to be subjected, to torture and or cruel inhuman degrading treatment or punishment, which we often see at the us Mexico border, which is unfortunate.

But in fact, the church is called to advocate for justice because in advocating for justice for our neighbor is to accompany those held. In detention and, who are sadly in cages in the town where I come from in the Rio Grande Valley.

Barbara: that's also a topic for perhaps debate or at least discussion. Define cruel, define inhuman define degrading: to me, separating minor children from their parents or guardians, that to me is all of the above. People sleeping on cement floors with an aluminum foil blanket. To me that qualifies as inhuman and degrading because essentially we're treating these people like dogs and that's not right.

Jay: a good point.

Barbara: How about the borders that we might be crossing in our own hearts in our own lives?

Jay: Jesus crosses all kinds of borders and spaces when he thirsts in the land of Samaria. He sees a woman at a well drawing water and asks for a drink. What follows is a conversation that violates all the political correctness of the day. He, a Hebrew man speaks to a woman of another culture and of a questionable history. And quite frankly, considered an enemy as a Samaritan. He engages her in a theological discourse that leads to greater insights of the dwelling, places of the spirit, and she received spiritual direction.

That leads to a thirst for the life-giving waters of the borderless spirit. She shares her gospel encounter with her community and becomes an ambassador for all who thirst for wholeness. Lord, help me to quench the thirst of others with the good news that you bring wholeness to the afflicted, the broken and the disinherited.

We as a church are called to engage these conversations in order to extend hospitality to others. And to cross the borders that we have artificially and arbitrarily constructed, both outside of ourselves and within ourselves.

Barbara: How about just ordinary folks, Jay, who may or may not be involved with a formal congregation? What are we called to do just as regular people around this topic?

Jay: Well, what do we mean by crossing borders of indifference? Borders are everywhere. They're human constructs of places that we're not willing to cross for X number of reasons.

And that becomes a border of indifference. Because we're not willing to cross the border as we do in South Texas to lend a helping hand people who are seeking asylum on the Mexican side of the border. And so in our own communities, we can't be indifferent to the changes that are occurring around us, to new people, inhabiting our spaces.

And we fail to reach out to them to extend hospitality to them. To ask the living questions that every human being has about their life and faith, and to engage in a spirit of mutuality and concern for each other, and also to discover the richness of others people's traditions. When we are willing to cross that border, we are opening ourselves up to a whole different experience of what it means to be human in today's world.

Barbara: And I know that some folks may say, well, Hey, look, I'm not really aware that there's a whole lot of refugees or immigrants in my community. We might not think that there's a lot, but are people staying behind doors? I'm not sure. Is there a way to be welcoming, say for example, teaching English as a second language? That's not to say that everyone who comes here doesn't speak English. That's not true. Some folks who come here speak really great English or five other languages, frankly, which I don't even speak five languages.

Jay: even a smile, a kind smile goes a long way to making someone feel welcome. And I tried to do that at every restaurant that I coach here, because I know that many of the folks working in these restaurants are new to this country and I have a lot to learn from them. And I often ask them after I get to know them, I ask them to tell me their story. And so in that conversation, in the engagement, I'm extending a word of welcome a warmth that every human being needs for the day and assign that you matter, you matter to me and you matter to the God that I serve.

Barbara: One of the favorite things that you said that I recall is that you ask people just to a friendly question, not to be prying, hopefully not to make them feel afraid. And then later you ask, if you can pray for them, if there's anything that they would like you to pray for. And I thought, wow, that is just so brave. I aspire someday to ask someone who's a stranger, “How can I pray for you?”

Jay: It's all about building relationships. And we construct our bridges. You know, we have a choice of constructing bridges or tearing them down. And I prefer to be one who builds bridges of understanding across cultures.

We have all heard the proverb “Tell me who you walk with. And I will tell you who you are.” When Jesus sits down for dinner with a hated tax collectors and sinners of ill repute, he offers an alternative view of a meal that shapes identity, practice mercy.

He advises- This is his way of saying “you follow me when you invite the least among you to my table.” In Spanish. We like to say, “tell me who you eat with and I will tell you who you are.” I share “Lord, help me to invite the unloved to the sacred spaces of our worship trip that we might commune at your table of grace.” I'd like to point out that all theological traditions recognize that feeding others is a sign of hospitality and an opportunity to serve others who cannot feed themselves. And I've had the grace of traveling to many, many different countries throughout the world. And I've often experienced a welcoming table as a sign of hospitality, and often with people I did not know and was meeting for the first time.

And so that's why I can safely say that, we are called to feed others as a sign of hospitality and welcome,

Barbara: and we're also called to give generously without expectation of return. So sometimes we invite someone and then we're pretty sure we're going to get invited a little later on and it kind of goes back and forth, but that's truly the opposite of what this conversation is about. You just give freely and not even patronizing, like let me go help these poor people.

Jay: in that table conversation, you're going to learn about each other. You're going to exchange the richness of who you are. So we all bring something to the table, you know, and if you don't have food, you're bringing your faith story.

Barbara: we can bless each other in many different ways.

Jay: That's right. And many of us know the story in Luke 10, about the Samaritan. When the lawyer asks Jesus, who is my neighbor? And Jesus tells the parable of the good Samaritan. The good Samaritan is the one who showed mercy to the injured man and on the side of the road. And so we become the neighbor who creates spaces of welcome so that others might receive, not only food to eat, but just a resting place where they can rest their bodies, their spirits. And allow themselves to just breathe safely for a little while.

Barbara: we really wanted to start with a biblical foundation today, and there are advocacy resources that I'm going to post on the podcast website, 40 minutes of faith.com that there are ways that you can give of your time, not necessarily of your money, but certainly if you feel so inclined to agencies, there's places like amnesty that are writing letters.

To campaign for these human rights that we've talked about. There's Lutheran organizations, there's groups of all faiths and that are not necessarily faith involved either.

Jay: if you have a faith advocacy group, as we do in Texas called the Texas impact, that's a lobbying group which is faith based that advocates for justice for our neighbors. And if you can connect with those kind of advocacy groups within your own community, I'm sure they exist. An informed conscience, advocating for the right to exist, the right to eat the right, to find sanctuary the foot or the right to be an asylum seeker and the right to be a refugee. The more you get informed by tapping into these advocacy groups, the richer your experience is going to be, and the more effective you are going to be as an advocate for justice for our neighbors.

I want to invite any here to go to my webpage, www.jayalanis.com And you're going to find resources there, theological resources and references to links that will take you to advocacy groups. I caution people against what I've referenced as cultural violence, that also includes religious violence.

And so by that, I mean, be attentive to how we treat the faith traditions of others who may be joining our sacred spaces and bringing the richness. I like to call it the richness of their traditions to our table. Because we have something to learn from each other. We don't know, we don't, we don't monopolize the truth as it were.

I think God, the spirit is every con every culture on earth, a reference to the divine, a reference to the sacred, their own symbolic language for it. And so we have something to learn from how you must have experienced the Holy. And so, I think in, in, in being receptive to learning. I think is the greatest contribution you can make for yourself and your community of, worship.

Barbara: I'm hearing you call us really to an invitation of being open minded.

Jay: Yes. There's nothing like an open heart and open mind to enrich your life. I can speak from experience because I've crossed many borders throughout my life and I'm the richer for it.

Barbara: Thank you. I'm so grateful that I was able to be in Texas. There's still a lot I don't know. And even what I take for granted, say for example, white privilege, I have it. And I took it for granted. So I didn't even know I had it. It's not a disease, but maybe it's a social problem. So to continue to raise that own awareness within yourself.

Barbara: Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom, Jay. I really appreciate it.

Jay: You're welcome, Barbara.

Resources:

Genesis 3:23

Genesis 12:1-20

Exodus

Matthew 2:14

Matthew 25:35

Books:

Jason de Leon, Land of Open Graves, University of California Press, 2015

Anzaldua, Gloria, Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza, 25Th Anniv. Fourth Edition, 2012

Juan Oliver, Ripe Fields: The Promise and Challenge of Latino Ministry, Church Publishing, 2009