Barbara: Hi, everyone. Welcome to 40 Minutes of Faith. My name is Barbara Cox. Today's topic is spiritual gifts and our guest is Carmine Ruvalcaba. I met Carmen in Germany and she's back in the United States now. Carmen grew up Catholic, taught Sunday school, provided childcare and was a nurse before getting married.
Being a military spouse has allowed Carmen to live on the East and West coast and the South plus four years in Germany.
Carmen's husband retired this year and they are getting settled in San Diego. Carmen is mom to four children and she hopes to go back to work as a registered nurse. Welcome, Carmen! How are things in California for all of you?
Carmen: Thank you, Barbara. We're adjusting to the weather quite nicely, a nice change from Germany, and getting to know the neighborhood and the community, despite all the different changes that are going around.
Barbara: Wearing a mask and things like that.
Carmen: Yeah.
Barbara: Well, excellent. We have a chapter in the book of Romans, if you're flipping through your Bible, Romans is towards the end, in the New Testament after the book of Acts. So here's Romans chapter 12, verses five through 10 from the message.
“So since we find ourselves fashioned into all these excellently formed and marvelously functioning parts in Christ's body, let's just go ahead and be what we were made to be without enviously or pridefully comparing ourselves with each other or trying to be something we aren't. If you preach, just preach God's message. Nothing else. If you help, just help. Don't take over. If you teach, stick to your teaching, if you give encouraging guidance, be careful that you don't get bossy. If you're put in charge, don't manipulate. If you're called to give aid to people in distress, keep your eyes open and be quick to respond. If you work with a disadvantaged, don't let yourself get irritated with them or depressed by them.
Keep a smile on your face. Love from the center of who you are. Don't fake it. Run for dear life from evil. Hold on for dear life to good, be good friends who love deeply. Practice playing second fiddle.”
Carmen, there is so much in these verses. I'm curious about how people figure out what they are good at and how to help God's people and creation. Do you think it's hard sometimes to know what we're supposed to be doing with our lives?
Carmen: Oh, absolutely. It's definitely hard to know, but you always gotta remember that what you're doing is the number one thing; who am I in God's eyes and what can I do to serve? I think that's important to know.
Barbara: I worry sometimes that people might feel like they have messed up their lives and or that God has not given them any particular talent. Carmen, it seems to me that one of your gifts is noticing other people's talents. Could you give some examples of when you helped people discern their gifts and calling to serve?
Carmen: Yes. For me, I think the most recent would be PWOC, which is the Protestant woman of the chapel. That played a big role for me when it came to discovering my gifts. It was the first year I was there, God was definitely grooming me because I just wanted to belong to such a wonderful group like that.
And I found one. So when the second year came around and I was asked to do it, I was hesitant, but I said, you know what? I'm going to pray about it. And if this is what God wants to do, then I'll do it. I'm not gonna question it. And sure enough, I prayed about it and all that, the lights were green and I said, okay, I'll do.
And it also help that I wasn't doing it by myself. There was always a sister there by my side. And that was so comforting and uplifting. And I said, okay, I can do this. And I learned to see with God's eyes, I learned to hear with his heart, I loved and accepted all these women right where they were and what they had to offer, what their expectations were. I learned so much.
Barbara: Absolutely. I've also heard some people feel maybe badgered about volunteering And how do we look at the fine line between inviting someone to serve?
And you had mentioned kind of praying, is this the right direction for me at this season in my life? And when to say no, this either isn't the right season or perhaps the calling is a little different, like our human influence. We try to influence each other sometimes, especially when we're really looking for volunteer help.
Carmen: Yeah, that is so true. I think when you get involved with the church, you get the first hand that you should serve and you get people are asking, Hey, will you come, pray if we consider this or that. I think it's just always remembering to pray about it first.
When I look at this scripture, particularly, if we go back a couple of verses to Romans 12, verse one, it says there, offer your body as a living sacrifice. So for me, that's literally what I do. I look at my body and I say, okay, I gotta get up. I gotta get in a place where I'm one on one with the Lord and I got to get ready for whatever it is that he wants to prepare me with.
And in verse two, it says, do not conform, but transform by the renewing of the mind. And so that's when I open up the Bible. And I refer to scripture and I just have to remind myself what can I do? How can I not get warm to the outside influences whether it's the news or my children or husband, but to transform, have the Holy spirit come from within me.
And so that's the opportunity. That's where I hone in everything. And then lastly, once I get my body and my mind ready, I can then, I think verse three says don't think of yourself more highly, but have sound judgment. So definitely finding the sensible part of myself. I know who I am and a big part of me would like to say, Hey God, I would love to be the ambassador of world peace. How can I do it? But if I I'm with my sensible self and say, Hey, you know, what can I do in the now, what can I do in my community or my church when I'm asked to serve? And I can start with just saying, God, I just want to serve, how can I serve you? I have to humble myself. I have to remind myself, that it's not my work, but his will.
So for other people, it might look a little different, if you're good at praying, I just say, Lord, I'm going to good at praying. How can I pray for so and so , or if I want to help Lord, I really want to help. I don't know if I can be tasked with, organizing so-and-so's wedding, but I can definitely help maybe washing the dishes or clean up that day or something like along those lines.
I think if you have this urge to want to teach, Lord, how can I teach? How can I reach out and just make a difference? And sitting in that quiet time, you'll see that doors are open- you get certain signs or certain things just fall into place. I think the more important parts when you're trying to decipher whether you want to serve or not, or if you're exploring your gifts or not is just remembering not to be stagnant or not to feel frustrated.
When you're stagnant, you're not doing what God wants you to do. And when you're feeling frustrated is when you're trying to do too much from what it's asking you to do. So find the middle ground.
Barbara: I'm so glad you said that because I had a very wise mentor teach a workshop one time and she referenced a Bible verse that some people know as the 10 finger prayer. “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” And this mentor, Victoria Robinson, suggested a very respectful amendment to that, to support volunteers. And she said, “I can do called things through Christ who strengthens me.” And that reminded me when you said, if you're feeling really frustrated and you're like, I just want to do what God is having me do, that there can be a way to look at it. Is this what God is calling you to do? Because the way she explained it was, God's not calling everyone to do everything. Like the example you gave of, I'm not in a place to plan this whole wedding right now, but I can help with the dishes or clean up or whatever my skill set is as part of the larger project. I wonder if people, sometimes myself included, bite off more than we can chew
Carmen: We do. And just knowing your boundaries is very important because, who doesn't want to serve? But we have to know what our capabilities are and if you don't know what your spiritual gift is, there's many ways to find out what your spiritual gift is and there's no wrong way of doing anything. You can't mess them up. I know people say, okay, well, it's a gift. Yes. This a gift. And you don't just have one.
You can have multiple gifts and you don't have to be really good at all of them. Just get your feet wet and say, Hey, I like this. My gift is to serve, but I also like numbers. I like to try on maybe administrative work, or, handle the finances- so there's no wrong way to go about it.
Barbara: Thanks for saying that because it might be a really clear gift that one person has. And, say you are good at decorating cakes- as far as I'm concerned, you can just decorate cakes from here until the end of time. But there might be something else that you're good at too. And there might be opportunities for training. If you're willing to learn something new, if there's an area of need with prayerful consideration.
Carmen: Yes, definitely. when I first got into it with PWOC, I thought I was there to serve and I said, I'm going to go into hospitality. Cause that's what you do when you serve. And, I remember starting off at the welcome table and, then I was asked to go into the kitchen and I said, yeah, wherever you need me, I'll go.
But then that second year, I was on selection committee. I said, no, that, that can't be right. I cannot possibly learn how to do this or how to do that. That's not me. But, if you pray about it and you really learn to let God work through you, you will discover things you will never thought were possible. Which is pretty awesome.
Barbara: Does God sometimes surprise us?
Carmen: Oh yes. Unquestionably. Yes, he does. I actually learned how to develop discernment. And then later I got into teaching, which it's still some form of hospitality, if you think about it, it goes hand in hand and you start growing and learning and it's just a beautiful feeling.
Barbara: we have seasons of rest in our lives, and that's not necessarily the main theme of our conversation today, but if we're talking about discernment, have you encountered situations where you've talked with people about discerning that this might be a time for them to receive and to not give in a formal role?
We're all giving all the time and we're receiving too, but sometimes it's more of one than the other.
Carmen: when I got into the selection committee, I thought I was meant to do for three years straight. And you have to go in it in prayer.
And before every year I would pray about it. And it just so happened that on the third year I said, you know what? This is going to be one of maybe my last years, I really want to do it. And I prayed about it and I did not get the confirmation I wanted. And I was confused.
I was saying, Lord, my heart's in the right place. I feel my mind is in the right place, but why am I not getting the green light? And so I said, yes, knowing that inside, I was like, I did not get validated for this. And lo and behold, then we were served with orders to leave. And at that same time, someone actually stepped up and said, Hey, I'm willing to do this.
And maybe Carmen can come alongside and just kind of monitor and help. And it worked out fantastic. And I said, wow, this wasn't my time to serve. So I need to step down and say, okay, Lord, I got it. I might be coming from the right place but it's not your will.
Barbara: That is so helpful to say that. Yeah, just because it might be a season of not serving in a certain capacity, you're still coming from a good place and willingness to help. And are you able to give any more details about how do you feel that sense of calling? I think sometimes someone says, well, God told me this. And then sometimes someone else might say, well, God didn't tell me anything. What are one or two ways that people can have a sense of discernment?
Carmen: I think it's their brain knowing how, when you pray, how God speaks to you. The most basic way I learned, I think when I was little. My mom would say, well, if you pray, ask for confirmation and I would say, well, I pray to find money on the floor. Lo and behold, if I prayed about something, I would find a penny or a dime, which sounds kind of silly, but it was my confirmation.
And as I got older, you know, I prayed for different confirmations. And, it happened, some people have that ability where they can hear the voice of God. I have the ability to only look for the signs that God gives me when I pray for them. So that's the way I do it. it's funny because he can minister through anyone different ways, but it could be a song.
It could be someone telling you directly, those are the ones that give me goosebumps where you don't know someone and they can give you either an example or they tell you straight out, Hey, God has a place for you. And it might be this, this or that.
It's like, wow. They know that, so looking for those cues, keeping an open mind and just knowing when he is speaking to you.
Barbara: And the example that you just gave is a perfect segue because a different word is used in the new international version translation of the Bible. For the same verses that I just read.
And I think that that word, it might be confusing sometimes. So I'm going to read just verses five through eight of Romans 12 so that we can check out this more unusual word, maybe examine it a little bit. So here's verses five through eight.
“So in Christ, we though many form one body and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace, given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith. If it is serving, then serve. If it is teaching, then teach. If it is to encourage, then give encouragement. If it is giving, then give generously. If it is to lead, do it diligently. If it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.”
Carmen, I'm wondering what can prophecy look like these days?
Carmen: these days it can look in many ways. One thing to always remember, I feel like when you read, don't take biblical ideology so word to word. Cause some people might think, okay, prophecy- I have to be the next Isaiah or Daniel
Barbara: wandering around the desert - and I'm not making fun, but we have this image in our mind.
Carmen: and we don't have to reinvent the wheel. It could look very simple. It could be, if it's prophecy, it might be a dream or a thought, something in your heart that you might just go up to someone and say, Hey, God put this in my heart.
And he said if you're going through a rough week, he's got your back, that simple. And there's truths to that. That's how I see it at least. And if it's teaching, you don't have to go straight into trying to be a deacon, you can say I'm willing to teach- how bout I do Sunday school, or maybe just fellowship?
Or maybe I can do a Bible study- now with COVID you can do zoom or any type of meeting like that. So it doesn't have to be the teaching that you might think that's in the Bible or exportation. I mean, there are countless examples. it's going to look different every single time and it's how you apply it.
Barbara: I'm glad you said exhortation. Cause that's actually in this passage, but in a different translation that I don't have in front of me, can you give an example of exhortation?
Carmen: exhortation is someone that gives us those hard truths. So it might be someone who may be struggling with addiction. And if you have someone who has the gift of exhortation saying, Hey, God wants you to know X, Y, Z. And those are those hard truths that will shake, or maybe it's someone who's facing infidelity. Hey, this is what the Bible says. You know, we've got to honor this and that. And so you need someone like that sometimes in your corner to call you out when you need to hear it.
Barbara: that can be a hard message to hear. And in some cases, I believe there's both discernment and a message to go with the exhortation, of God's love. You had no way of knowing this Carmen, but an episode will be published before this one about addiction and the person who did the recording said, I couldn't believe that God could still love me in all my mess before she went to rehab, and she's in recovery now. And yes, the exhortation is absolutely AND God still loves people despite how we mess up.
Carmen: Oh yeah. We come from different walks of life. If we were perfect, we wouldn't be here. You know, if we had it all down right. We wouldn't be here- from the novice to the most seasoned person on a spiritual walk, we're sinners. We are sinners and sometimes it takes you to live through some hardships- those are the things that build your character.
And so when you're ready and you confront certain things, you say, Oh, I got to see it through, and this is what I've learned, or, Hey, if maybe, someone who's struggling with addiction and is walking now, that walk of faith maybe can be an encouragement to someone who might susceptible to that, or was also dealing with that or has a loved one dealing with that. I love this about the new Testament, is Jesus Christ sticks up for the little guy, little guy being the sinner.
There's no one perfect person. And I love that because he doesn't do it scoldingly and he doesn't do it like he's shaming you or anything like that. It's always out of love. And that's another thing we have to take from that when we're put in these positions or if we have these gifts- always speak with love and hear with love, and that's a key, that's huge.
That will separate you from knowing when it's a gift and when it's not a gift.
Barbara: I was thinking about these two different translations that we have talked about, that we're all part of a body, and there's probably a million different analogies that we could come up with. But to me, it kind of feels like a box of crayons- there's room for all kinds of crayons in this box of crayons. Like if I had a box of only one color crayons, fine. But it's so much more unified to have all these different kinds of crayons in there. So please forgive me if that's a terrible example, but it makes me think of teamwork. I mean, really the example in here is one person as a hand, one person is a foot and it's kind of nice if you have, all these different the eye or the ear or whatever.
So how can we support each other with our different talents? Like we can't all be leaders or you don't need 10 different accountants, you need one accountant and a bunch of different roles in the organization.
Carmen: Yeah. And we are all working for one body there's room for everybody, and there's no one that makes you better than the other or one that is lesser than the other.
I literally just think of the body. If we think about our body and how weight is shifted, Even our neck can help sustain our head, the minute things. I mean, it all makes a difference and we're all there to work together and to build each other up.
Barbara: And even though this conversation is mostly about discerning our gifts or our contributions, it seems to me like sometimes even in our strengths, we can drive each other crazy. Hopefully not on purpose, but is it sometimes hard to respect each other's gifts and to leave room and how to work as a team together?
Carmen: we will always be faced sometimes with a difficult person. Whether it's coming from us or from that other person, there's going to be some difficulty. And I think just remembering, if you can speak with love and if you can hear with love, that will make all the difference in the world. You can tell someone, Hey, I noticed you were tasked with this, but you're coming into my lane.
I've learned to be just direct also when you're faced with someone difficult, just to ask them, how can I best approach you, where you can hear me with love? And you'll stop them in their tracks. So just kind of be like, Oh, I didn't know you felt that way. And if they're willing to listen, you can tell them. And that's just the best way to do it.
Barbara: And there's different kinds of questionnaires even online on discerning your spiritual gifts. You know, we're all humans, we're flawed - the tools are as good as they can be. But there's still a very important room to hold for prayer in this whole thing. What are my gifts? And then I'm even thinking, what are the five love languages? Different people want to hear the information in a different way. Like when you said, how can, how can I give you feedback?
How can I speak in love and how can the other person listen in love? Or how can I listen in love when someone is speaking to me in a hard way? So if we have any resources, we can put them on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com. There's even a book called the five languages of apology, because some people want to hear an apology in a different way. So you don't have to do all of these things with your teams or your groups, but there are tools to use as well with these things.
Carmen: Yes. I actually loved those two books. The five love languages and the five of apology, really good books. I think that when you can understand that there's more than just one way to receive a message and to give a message, you can definitely better approach that person too. How can I make it better?
Barbara: I really want to send a message of support to people who may be raising kids and having possibly a stressful time, or just kind of discerning their gifts and their balanced between you were a nurse before you were raising your family and traveling all around. Things are hard with daycare and military life and finding jobs overseas and things like that. So how can we support folks who are raising kids and volunteering and may or may not be frazzled, getting enough sleep just with a message of encouragement around talking about spiritual gifts and volunteering and things like that?
Carmen: Just know that if you're going to serve God with all that, definitely do it with the serving heart. We should work always to build each other up. And just know that we are put where we are put for purpose, whether it's a time of chaos or whether it's a time of isolation, like now. And always pray about how you can just make a difference.
I know for me, I never thought I was a big social butterfly, but when the whole COVID thing hit and I was in a room with six individuals, I was dying to get out and I was praying. I was like, Lord, give me the strength to look at another day, give me the strength to keep going forward. How can I continue to be positive if I can't even enjoy the relationships I once had or, certain things that I did?
And, lo and behold, I had strangers come to me and someone offered prayer or someone would offer a meal or someone would just give me a quick five minutes of just a conversation. And I said, thank you, Lord. That's all I needed to refresh. And it was so nice.
We're moving here to San Diego. I said, no, we're not. I know he put us here for a reason. And if it's to serve, please show me how I can do that. And if it's to learn, please humble me where I can receive that teaching. And I think on day three, I met the neighbor who lives across the street and she came over and she said, I really want to get to know you and your family- and that just meant so much to me.
I was like, really? You want to know us? And she said, Hey, I just suffered a mild heart attack a couple of weeks ago. And without a doubt I just said, that's the sign. I said, well, how can I serve you? If you ever need me, here's my number. And then maybe we can just get together. I can run to the grocery store for you and I can do something, don't hesitate to call and it's just that simple.
Barbara: You found a new neighbor friend maybe sooner than you thought in the time when you felt you're kind of alone and the new kid on the block.
Carmen: Yeah. So just looking for those good opportunities and just learning either how to be of service or to learn from them.
Barbara: Yes. So I want to honor the different seasons that we had talked about before that service doesn't have to be formal in a volunteer group with a title and meetings, It could be just the everyday little thing of bringing some groceries to the neighbor.
And I have become convinced of the tremendous amount of work that it takes to raise a family, from mundane household chores, to teaching children values and that's not a paid job, but really it is. And I say that with tremendous respect and honor.
Carmen: once you start having kids, that was for me a big one. How do I get them on their spiritual walk and how do I do it where I'm not forcing it upon them, but rather it's coming within them? And some days, that looks really good. I'm like, all right, Lord, they're on the right track.
And other days I'm just like, Oh my goodness. He's challenging me. Not necessarily them, but it's for me. So, got to have those loving eyes and just know that even when you hit those rough days, there's always tomorrow. You guys just got to work on it slowly but surely.
Barbara: One of my professors always asked us whose voice is missing. So we have this passage in Romans from the message and from the NIV, and we've got spiritual gifts and we've talked about volunteering. So I'm just curious if you can think of any voice that's not already been brought up in this conversation?
Carmen: I think maybe one person that might be missing is a non-believer- that's a hard one because I know that when you're a nonbeliever, how do you even begin to believe? But just know that there is something in you that has been bestowed in you, given to you. And often someone is born talented in certain things. And for others it might be that you have to work at it, you know? And so for a nonbeliever, know that there's something in you that God has given you.
And it doesn't hurt just to give it a try, you know, step out on a limb and it doesn't cost anything. It's free of charge and no harm comes to you out of this, just give it a shot and see where it takes you.
Barbara: we're saying really clearly that God is able to do good things in the world, through anybody, no matter what has happened in your past, that there is room for God's love, even for anyone who might feel unworthy.
And that's not just to say you've never believed in God, but even sometimes people might feel like they have known God and then they can think, well, I don't deserve this and none of us deserve it. So it's not about one person not deserving. It we're all in the same boat, but it's still given freely,
Carmen: in my life, I've known people who don't believe and are just saints. Whether they know it or not, I'm just like, wow, how do you not believe, being the person that you and just reminding yourself things happen for a reason? God's timing is perfect and you are where you're supposed to be.
Barbara: And I also want to honor that it might be hard to walk into a place where you don't know anybody. You know, the first time that we went to a Protestant women of the chapel meeting, we just were really trusting that there were going to be good people there to welcome us.
And hopefully that was the case. Maybe these days we're not walking into as many places, but even to join something online, And to just pray that people will be nice to you and not judge you. Cause that does happen too. And that breaks my heart.
Carmen: It happens but know that that's not the majority. It's definitely few and far in between.
Barbara: I've said things that I've regretted as well. I think I'm a good person. And then I just am like, why did I even say that? What is wrong with me? I'm so sorry then.
Carmen: Yeah, I know. We're human. We're not perfect.
Barbara: Carmen, Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate your wisdom and your insights.
Carmen: thank you. We may not all have the answers, but these are some of my experiences and I hope I can make a difference.
Resources:
Romans 12: 5-10
Books:
Formerly titled “5 Languages of Apology” https://www.5lovelanguages.com/book/when-sorry-isnt-enough/
Eric Haitz composed the guitar music and lyrics for “The Lord’s Prayer”, which he sings and plays at the end of this episode. He lives with his family in Iowa and is a student at Wartburg Theological Seminary, in the Diaconal Ministry degree program. Eric has been repairing musical instruments for the local school system for many years
Carmen encourages others!