Barbara: Hi everyone- welcome to 40 minutes of faith. Today's topic is racism and our guest is Jennifer Hamrick. I met Jennifer in Germany and she's back in the United States now. Jennifer has been a military spouse for 15 years. She met her high school sweetheart when she was 17 and he's a chaplain now.
Jennifer was raised in the Southern Baptist church from the age of two, accepted Christ at age eight, and she has had a growing personal relationship with him, especially since middle and high school as her church was phenomenal at encouraging that personal, intimate one-on-one relationship. Jennifer worked as a teacher before becoming a stay at home mom and ended up homeschooling because they were about to embark on their army journey.
She's from Charlotte, North Carolina, lived in eight places with the military and currently lives at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York. Her dreams were to be a mom and a writer, and she loves teaching Financial Peace University and hosting Be the Bridge groups with her husband. So the more people we can set free from financial burden and racism, the more her dreams come true.
Welcome, Jennifer. How are things in Brooklyn for all of you?
Jennifer: it is rainy and cold and COVID has gotten more again, we're having a little bit more restrictions- we are actually doing pretty good. So we are in a little bubble of COVID where it's not very high.
We're learning what it's like to live in a big city in the midst of a pandemic. We have been very impressed with how the people that we've been in contact with at restaurants, MTA, they've been very friendly and welcoming and, helpful- they give you masks if you forget one, we've had that happen a number of times with a little one who left the house without his mask. So in the midst of a very challenging time, we're doing very well.
Barbara: I'm glad to hear that. I can imagine it's challenging to move in the middle of a pandemic, but welcome back to the United States.
Today's Bible passage is from the book of Micah, which is located past the halfway point in your Bible after Isaiah and Jeremiah. Here is Micah chapter six, verse eight, from the new revised standard version: “He has told you, Oh, mortal, what is good? And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and walk humbly with your God?”
Jennifer, why is this passage important to you, especially in the context of racism?
Jennifer: I think for our family, we were able to kind of skip over the justice part. We felt like, Oh, let the law enforcement and attorneys take care of that.
Oh, we can be kind. Yes, that's easy. We can just be kind to everyone. And walk humbly with your God, we kind of felt like we were doing that all along. And as we started on this journey, we realized there's more to justice than just letting someone else take care of it. I've never been convicted or arrested, so I don't have any personal reaction or interaction with it.
But learning that other people who don't look like me often have a problem with our justice system, that was eye-opening. For us to love kindness means that's not just being nice to people, but that's to actually care for their betterment. And then walking humbly with our God, it was very humbling to realize how much I didn't know. And to recognize that I had a part in making the world challenging for people of color where I didn't even notice that that was a thing. So, as we look at those three things, justice and kindness and humility, I think that sums up quite a bit of this journey that our family has been on and to include a constant recheck for myself. Yesterday, for example, to speak to the humility, I wrote a response on somebody's, Facebook page and I wrote “girl, same thing”. And I realized maybe that's inappropriate. Maybe that's not polite. Maybe that's disrespectful. It was to a friend of color, something that she had written. And I just kinda thought maybe that was not appropriate.
So before I changed it, I sent her a private message. And I said, you know what? I just wanted to ask you something, was that disrespectful? Was that condescending? I meant it in a friendly way, but I can see that there's a way you could, hear that and it's not appropriate. And she was very quick to say, Nope, that's exactly what I would have said to you.
And so I have to constantly humble myself to make sure I am still looking for ways that I am mis-peaking. So anyway, I think this verse just is a reminder of all the different aspects that looking at race and racism impacts our communities.
Barbara: Thank you. And we'll be unpacking different aspects of what it means to put these concepts into action as we talk today. Jennifer, after you adopted a biracial baby, you learned that many Black and Brown adults who were adopted wished that their white parents had discussed race more during their at-home years. It sounds to me like you did a great deal of research to learn how to support your daughter and educate your own family.
What are some examples about topics that you can talk about with your daughter and for that matter, everyone else in your family too?
Jennifer: When I started researching, we had 10 weeks from the day we found out about Anna till the day she was due and it was very fast.
I dove head first into researching adoption. So I went to a website called creating a family.org. And that website was so rich with resources. I just, I didn't have anywhere else to start. So I started there and I read everything that I could get my hands on, especially when it related to adopting trans-racially.
And that's a term I find some people don't quite understand. It just means across races. Like I adopted a child who was not the same race as me. And a lot of people assume that a white family adopting a black child is going to be fine because you love that child as you would any other child, which is absolutely true.
And they disregard the challenges that the child will face as a result of not being raised in a family that matches their skin tone. One small example- and I will tell you this one, because it was the first one that really got my attention. The story was told by an adult adoptee recalling a time when she was about 13 or 14 and heading out to the mall, her white mom said to her sweetheart, I don't think you should take that purse. It's too big, people could assume you're trying to steal things. And she was like, Mom, this is fine. She's you know, I'm fine. I'm going to go to the mall. You'll see. It will be fine. And about that time, the mom's friend pulled up and rang the doorbell and came on in and this friend happened to be black.
And she said to the 14 year old, Hey, where are you going? And the, the girl said, I'm going to the mall. And the black woman just looked at her and said, not with that purse. You're not. And the girl just got her eyes really big. And she said, okay, my mom was right- how people are going to perceive me.
And she was trying to save the day, trying to protect from being, considered trying to steal . And it wasn't until this black friend came over and didn't even know that this conversation had happened, that the young girl kind of believed her. And part of that is because that young girl has lived in a white family, her whole life, and she doesn't see people doing that to her family.
And when she's with them, they don't do that to her. It's different when that child steps out into the world on their own and the world is going to see them. How the world sees people of color. So I have never been followed around in a store and I have friends who say they have never walked through a store without being followed.
Barbara: I was really sad to read a similar example. Your saying that may be the first time that anyone has heard an example like that, and I really want to support that to the best of my understanding, that's a hundred percent accurate. I read a book called “I'm Still Here” by Austin Channing Brown. And she wrote that her dad taught her to never have her hands in her pocket when she was inside a store, because someone might suspect that she had put something into her pockets, even if she had not because of the color of her skin.
So I absolutely believe that that's a valid experience that you just gave an example of. This isn't just a one-time thing.
Jennifer: Yes. That to me was the very first example that I could see. If I raise my daughter with the experiences that I've had, she's going to be grossly under-prepared to protect herself when she goes out into the world. So I read everything that I could get my hands on, and a lot of them I did not include in my book because they were strictly adoption related, but they opened my eyes to a whole world and honestly broke my heart.
And I just realized there has to be something that I can do. First of all, I can educate my family and I can educate my daughter, but I felt like there was more that needed to be done. I think this is a conversation that just needs to be had in our culture.
It needs to be an ongoing conversation. So I really appreciate you having me on today.
Barbara: you're welcome. It's my pleasure. And I want to give a shout out also, Jennifer, the book you mentioned, the title is “Once You See Racism” and I'm so grateful that you're looking to share all of the profits from your book this year with a charitable organization.
So you're not looking to make money off of this. This is something that you want to share what you learned. And we'll have lots of resources on the podcast website, which is 40 minutes of faith.com, including the book, but there's going to be so much more information in there for people we can barely scratch the surface of the many lessons that you learned while we're talking today.
So thank you for your generosity.
Jennifer: Thanks. There is a big fear I had that someone would think I was trying to profit off of the tension that we felt, especially in 2020 and that is absolutely not the case. I genuinely want people, especially people who are like me raised to love everyone, raised to treat everyone with fairness, raised to see everybody the same and to love everyone.
I wanted to approach those people and say, so those are all well and good, except they don't work. I really think we need to look at this a little differently, consider that there are some things that we, as a white culture in many places, a strictly white culture, because I was raised in a city, but I had very few people of color in my daily life.
And I felt like if this group of people, the sweetest, nicest people in the world can completely be unaware of what's going on around them, that's a problem. And so that's what I want to do. I want to help people who really, truly want to love others well, to understand this concept.
Barbara: And you gave a hint to that when we talked about our Bible passage, that many of us go through life thinking, Hey, that's great that God wants justice, you know? Yeah, there's systems in place for justice or, yeah, that's great that God wants us to be kind we're pretty kind to people, where there's a lot more to it.
You can really hear that verse in different ways based on your understanding of the world or your awareness of situations that may be unjust or where kindness clearly is not happening. Even if our own little bubble might include what we perceive to be justice and kindness. I have a question for you, Jennifer, about what you have realized about the lack in our education around race, that it was incomplete to say the least?
I really admire that you freely say you felt astounded at how much of America's story hadn't been taught to you in school. What do you know now that you didn't know before? And why is it important to know that the American education system does not provide the whole story to students even to this day?
Jennifer: the first thing that I realized was that our textbooks tended to downplay the severity of the experiences that the slaves dealt with. I feel like it was almost glorified in a way, some of the textbooks even have said things like some of the slaves were treated like family and they got to live inside.
And, really, just covering up a multitude of tortures and pain that black people were subjected to. So I mean, even if you look at this movie, Gone With the Wind, which was a movie I watched a lot of times growing up, I saw myself as the white woman, I saw myself as the hero of Scarlet, I guess she wasn't really a good person, but that's all right.
But when you place yourself in the movie, you place yourself in the movie in the person you most look like probably or identify with. And as I researched, I learned that's not where my friends of color would have seen themselves. How would this movie feel to them watching it? And that's just one small example of it being, I think the term is most often used as whitewashed it's, it's been kind of cleaned up a little.
And so when it goes to our textbooks, We're not hearing the whole story. We're not hearing the depth and I'm not going to go into it here cause some of the things that I read were so graphic, they actually made my stomach turn, and I understand that that is a typical reaction for a white person when they finally wake up to this kind of conversation.
I couldn't eat for a while. Just the realization of all that I didn't know. And the fact that our black friends really do know these things like their communities, their cultures talk about this. They talk about their ancestors. They talk about their history, their culture, those experiences.
And I'll be honest, white culture does not talk about that part of our history. And so there's a huge gap in understanding and I worry that my black friends thought I had this experience and this history and this knowledge, but didn't care. In reality, I did not know this stuff. I obviously knew the basics of our history, but I didn't know the depth of pain and I never researched it until I started researching for adoption.
And I was just astounded at how our textbooks and how our education system does not even scratch the surface. After slavery was abolished, we have the Jim Crow laws, which I might have heard about that in college, like one week in one chapter of one class, but to read that and then to see how that moved into our policing system and how some of those institutions still have traces of that, while some of the people are fine and not racist necessarily. But the way we started- our systems are set up the foundations of our systems. So it's a fascinating way to learn about our history, to go back and look at things and how if you follow that one thread all the way through, it is astounding.
I homeschool and I have taught my kids a lot of this stuff. I did not want to be part of the problem of not educating the next generation about this stuff.
Barbara: I have a quote that's pertinent to what you just said. My faith tradition is Lutheran and I'll put a link on the podcast website from the ELCA website, it's elca.org. They have a social statement on race, ethnicity, and culture. And just the one sentence quote that I wanted to read from page three says: “we falter when we cling to old ideas that prevent us from becoming the people God calls us to be.”
And that really reminded me when we had the verse from Micah. Who does God call us to be? I don't believe that God calls us to oppress our siblings and to treat them horribly and to create systems that perpetuate racism and oppression. And we sometimes don't even realize- when I apply for a mortgage, I don't think about other people who are denied a mortgage because of their race, or people whose mortgage rates are higher because of the color of the skin than the mortgage rate that I can get. And I took a class this summer with a really terrific curriculum that talked about racism as a business. There's an economy of drugs, imprisonment, fear, and crime that has been created intentionally. This didn't happen by accident.
And when you don't know what you don't know, that's exactly why we're having this conversation. The saddest thing that I learned in this class that I took this summer was that there's an app that people can have on their phone to notify their designated point of contact that they have been pulled over and where they are just in case things go horribly.
I was so sad to hear that something like that had to exist for the protection of people who might not get through that encounter over a broken tail light, or allegedly not signaling when they changed lanes.
Jennifer: Those things happen regularly.
Barbara: did you experience any pushback from people who might disagree with some of what you've learned?
Jennifer: Most of The pushback has come very subtly. I believe that the majority of people who have a problem with what I'm saying haven't honestly taken a look at what I'm saying. And I say this repeatedly - we need to listen to what people are saying. And the whole first chapter, I really unpack terminology because some people really don't understand exactly what we're saying when we say white privilege.
Some people really bristle at the terms and if they really stopped and listened to what the terminology means, they would be a lot more apt to go. Oh, I can see that an example. I remember vividly saying to people when I heard the term white privilege, my parents were not privileged. They worked for everything they had.
They had me very young, started a business. They were never given anything. They almost went bankrupt. I had this whole litany of reasons that proved I was not privileged. And then when I discovered what privilege really means what it means in the context of racism.
Oh, it's going back to what you said when I'm pulled over. I'm either embarrassed cause I got in trouble, or angry cause I got pulled over and I wasn't doing anything wrong. I'm never scared. I've never been scared- so that's privilege. And privilege is being able to go into the store with whatever purse I want and not worrying a bit about being suspected of stealing.
Those are just the examples of privilege I'm talking about. And when people grasp that, they're a little more willing to listen to the next step. And I think it takes slowly understanding different small aspects. And understanding where no one in this conversation is punishing people or angry at people for being white.
It's just a matter of recognizing that there is a different lived experience for people who are white and people who are of color. And if we can recognize that we can then eradicate those things. There are proven statistics that show people who have ethnic sounding names are hired less frequently.
Jennifer, Jessica, Barbara, those are really, those are names that their resume gets put on the next desk. And then if your name is more ethnic sounding, it's sometimes not given as much credibility, and there are people sadly who are changing their names so that they can have a chance.
I mean, this is a very hard climate to get a job in. And if your name is what keeps you from getting a job. You shouldn't have to change your name. Someone gave you that name it's special, it's yours, and you should be able to have it. So one practice that I've tried to tell my kids, this is very, elementary, but if you are ever in a hiring position, one thing you can do is have someone white out over the names so that you are not using a bias when it comes to that particular aspect.
It's a very simple example. But if we can take away that one aspect of a hiring practice that is detrimental to people of color, or at least people with ethnic sounding names, that's one way my family can help make a change going forward.
Barbara: That's really terrific. That's a great example. I feel like a lot of people share the sentiment that you just said. I wasn't handed anything on a platter. When I was a kid, we had to eat cereal for dinner because money was tight. But when I really look on policies and practices, from the top down, I was handed everything on a platter, even if I ate cereal for dinner.
I don't know if there are statistics on college admissions, for example, or financial aid or getting that first job, just systemically, there's so much benefit that some people just have no awareness of cause if it feels normal, then we got it.
Jennifer: Exactly. And we only view the world through the lenses that we have accessible to us. And for me, my lenses were white Christian Southern. And I didn't have other lenses until I decided to. And so we were adopting Anna and I thought I should probably look at this through some different lenses so that I can raise her the best way that I can.
And to me, it was when I put those other lenses on, I saw it everywhere. I had a complete revelation that it angered me This is see that this is how my country is, and I've been a part of it. I have been a part of this. I've never done anything to intentionally harm anybody. And yet my not knowing was part of the problem.
The GI bill, was offered to the soldiers and then the vast majority of black soldiers came back, they didn't qualify for it. So the soldiers who came back, the white soldiers were able to go to college and get a degree and buy property.
And so the generational wealth that has passed down on that side can never be made up. Like we've taught financial peace for so many years, the compound interest that people have over a long period of time that cannot be made up.
And so that's just one tiny thing. We're talking about things handed to you on a silver platter. White people in general were able to succeed and pass down property or a little bit or help their kids go to college. And in a vast number of cases, black families were not. So they're pretty much always starting from scratch- and of course there are outliers. There are plenty of people who are doing great, without having had this generational wealth, but you still have to admit there was a privilege for those who started ahead of the game or started further down the track.
I don't want to come across as undermining or downplaying any successes people of color have and I don't want to sound like I'm belittling. Cause that is not it. I genuinely feel like the culture of black Americans is so incredibly strong and so incredibly intense, that in many ways, I'm envious of it. I'm thinking I wish my family had that kind of cultural upbringing and the closest I can say is having had the Christian faith, but there's an additional beauty in the culture that black culture has. I don't want to come across as condescending in anything that I'm saying. So. Please hear that.
Barbara: Absolutely. When it comes to practical matters, Jennifer, I've been a licensed social worker for many years. And one thing I've heard from a variety of people is about hurtful questions that they've been asked.
Do you have any tips of what not to say or ask when it comes to adoption and race?
Jennifer: so you're going to find different answers to that question. We are very open. We will answer any questions and it's partly because Anna's story, her birth mom is in our family. I mean, she's not related to us, but we have an open adoption and she has given her blessing for us to share her story. And so we have a lot more openness than some people may have. One thing a good thing to avoid to say, “is she your real child” or “are they real siblings?” That can be very hurtful. Yes, she is my real child. I did not have her biologically, but she's my real child and she's my real daughter.
And as far as the mom, the dad thing, she's a momma's girl and it's a real thing. So sometimes when Matt goes to put her to bed, she's like, but I want mommy. So she's my real daughter.
And I'm an educator. I love to teach people and I love to show people that open adoption is a really good option, to allow birth moms and their children to stay in contact. So I'm kind of an open book with that, but a lot of people are not. So really the best thing to say many times is “you have a beautiful family” and just, you know, if you need to say something about someone's family, you have a lovely family, or your daughter is lovely.
One thing that's not commonly understood regarding race is many people, many white people want to touch black kids' hair. And there are two main reasons that I would say let's don't do that. First of all, it is kind of condescending when an adult stranger goes up and touches some kid's head
Barbara: like any adult or any kid, at least these days.
Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of condescending and it's kind of frowned upon, but also in black culture their hair is very special and very unique. And it takes a lot of care and mama probably spent a good bit of time on it.
I think when I was parenting my boys and they were all white, they're all biologically mine, people tousled their hair all the time. And that wasn't quite so offensive, but for someone to come up and just touch Anna's hair because, Oh, look, I want to, you know, feel what it's like, just respect that that is a cultural no-no. There's actually a book, the title of it is “Don't Touch My Hair”. And it's a cute book and the purpose is to help children understand just because somebody's hair looks different from yours doesn't mean you should touch it. You don't have the right to touch it.
And with the history we have in America, I don't know if you've heard this before, but, black hair was often used to say certain things in slave times the way someone's hair was braided could give directions, distance to the next safe place, you know, times and dates that they could share.
So there were messages written in the way the hair was braided. When that was discovered, slave traders started making them shave their head, or keeping it covered. And that takes away someone's humanity. And so as a white person, I don't have that instinct that makes me uncomfortable when someone would touch my hair as a little girl, I felt that they were admiring it and white people doing that to black children they are probably admiring it, but there's a history there in the black culture. That's something you don't do. And a lot of white people don't know that.
Barbara: it seems to me like what's more important, me being curious about someone else's hair or respecting their humanity, their dignity?
And why do I have to point out that their hair is different? Like how does that help anybody for me to make a big deal? I'm not going to ask you questions about your son's hair, I've obviously I've met them, but that they're kids with blondish hair, but why do I have to make a big deal about someone's difference?
Just because I'm curious- to me, that devalues someone else, and it puts my curiosity as more important than their dignity.
Jennifer: yeah , it's very true. It almost makes it like, Oh, that's kind of different. That's novel and so the word that a lot of times you'll hear people who speak about this is that fetishize it.
You're taking something that is my normal in this case and as normal and making it a fetish to you. Like, this is interesting.
Barbara: This is not like mine and, and that's marvelous. We're saying this is wonderful and maybe people don't mean it in an unkind way, but I would say leave my hair alone.
People feel like that even with their bodies, I don't know if you had people touching your pregnancy belly and you're like, really, why are you just grabbing me?
Jennifer: What if I wasn't pregnant? How embarrassed would you be right now?
Barbara: Taking liberties with each other, I guess, is the bottom line.
Jennifer: Yes. Just respect their space.
Barbara: some of my friends are in marriages or relationships where not both of the spouses are white and someone will say about their child, where did you get them? And that's really offensive to even if the child wasn't adopted. In any case, that's sort of an invasive question.
Jennifer: just offer a compliment. If the person wants to talk, they will.
Barbara: I hope today's conversation about adoption and racism has been thought provoking for you. Since Jennifer and I are both white, we prayerfully seek to honor the voices of people who have experienced firsthand some of the concepts we're talking about. We don't claim to be experts about everything, and we sincerely wish to be humble as we discuss aspects of racism.
The information we've talked about so far has covered so many areas that it's going to take two episodes to share everything. Tune in next week for more information from Jennifer on these topics, including more resources. The workshop I took this summer was titled white privilege. Let's talk. The curriculum is available at no cost on the United church of Christ website, which is ucc.org
Resources:
Micah 6:8
Once You See Racism by Jennifer Hamrick
www.creatingafamily.org
www.ucc.org “White Privilege: Let's Talk” curriculum
Jennifer prayerfully learns about and promotes racism and prevention
.